Thread has disappeared? "Re: Vee, Sam, Joe - Old Uncle Tom Cobley and all" Posted by Bob Morabito - 12 Jul 01:21AM Hide picture http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=715698&groupid=3&words=&name= Error message: Content-type: text/html This should never happen Can anyone else view this thread? It shows up as an active topic in the list for the last 5 days, but clicking on it gets the above error. (pls see attachments) Thanks Bob -- Bob Morabito Dorico 1.0.30 Sib 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5.1 Fin 2014.5 Mac OS 10.9.5 iMac 32GB RAM, 1 TB SSD https://soundcloud.com/bob-morabito Attachment Screen Shot 2017-07-11 at 9.12.14 PM.png (410K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Mark K Sealey - 12 Jul 03:07AM Hide picture Same here; the source HTML appears empty. -- Mark Sealey iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, Late 2014); 4 GHz Intel Core i7; 32 GB Ram; 10.12.5; 8.5 Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Adrian Drover - 12 Jul 05:39AM Hide picture Quite conveniently for Avid, methinks. They don't want anyone to know that several users are unhappy with the way Sibelius is being maintained. I will say it again. Development is shoddy and expensive. I have paid heavily to get 8.6, yet I still have to use 7.1.3 to get my work done hassle free and on time. Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Mike Lyons - 12 Jul 06:28AM Hide picture I believe the thread was removed. -- Win 10 Pro x64, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.5 NotePerformer, Miroslav Phil, Harmony Asst, GPO4 & 5, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC, Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Bob Morabito - 12 Jul 07:02AM Hide picture Thanks Mark and Mike for the confirmation--it seems whoever did this kept the title of the thread, but gutted all of the replies in it--which seems kind of strange to me. >Quite conveniently for Avid, methinks. They don't want anyone to know that several users are unhappy with the way Sibelius is being maintained. I will say it again. Development is shoddy and expensive. I have paid heavily to get 8.6, yet I still have to use 7.1.3 to get my work done hassle free and on time. > And thank you also Adrian--I had written I agreed with what both you and Cause had said, and again agree with what youve written here. And I feel that censoring and deleting posts are NOT going to address Sib and AVID's huge problems, but only serve to aggravate and increase them, and create more bad will with the user base, especially the long time users. Sorry to say this but its true and its being said all over this forum and on the web also-- not only was AVID and Sib people not honest about the frequency of minor and major updates, under subscriptions, but they have been proven to be bug ridden and feature paltry. This has been discussed and proven in past threads. And THAT'S the problem that should be addressed constructively, not silencing people about it, to hide it and make it seem that it doesnt exist. Sib users and potential customers really have a right to know what theyre getting into, and the same sadness and complete disappointment I feel for what Sib has become, is now also being felt for this horrible new practice of censoring and deleting posts that are honest about the state of Sib.. Its a damn sad shame, and I fully expect this thread to also be messed with, to be followed by silencing anyone who speaks up honestly about the situation. WHY NOT ADDRESS AND FIX THE SOFTWARE INSTEAD??? Thanks Bob -- Bob Morabito Dorico 1.0.30 Sib 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5.1 Fin 2014.5 Mac OS 10.9.5 iMac 32GB RAM, 1 TB SSD https://soundcloud.com/bob-morabito Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Chris Crawley - 12 Jul 10:00AM (edited 12 Jul 10:05AM) Hide picture A couple of points, if I may. "... this horrible new practice of censoring and deleting posts that are honest about the state of Sib.." There's maybe a difference between being honest and being unpleasant, but of course it's a subjective one. And I can't see the host of a forum like this ignoring posts detrimental to their commercial interests. (I'm just giving a point of view, not offering a justification.) It would be very interesting to know some figures: how much revenue is Avid currently getting from Sibelius? In that figure, how much represents new users? How much is Avid paying out, in total, in salaries to all employees specifically focused on Sibelius, including programmers, support staff etc? I bet Avid knows precisely and also knows it is reaching the point where it will not be financially worthwhile to continue even to pretend Sibelius is being meaningfully developed. My feeling is that, after the very low-key announcement of its release, and the generally muted reaction to, version 8.6, Avid is close to throwing in the towel. How close, I don't know, but there must come a point where the figures don't add up and Avid pulls the plug, meaning no more development of the program. If they also pull support for registering/re-registering and surrounding issues then the program is as good as dead. It would be too much to expect anyone from Avid to offer a meaningful comment. -- Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico 1.1, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 2.0.2, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100 Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Sam at Sibelius - 12 Jul 12:16PM Hide picture Hi All, I removed the thread as there were some personal and indirect attacks on staff here, and that goes against the terms of use. To review these terms, and how we expect everyone to behave, please see the forum guide: http://www.sibelius.com/forum/advice.html Chris, Sibelius is actually going really well, despite what you report here. I've recently returned from a trip to our head office in Burlington, MA, where we laid out the next several years of releases and the overall business plan to match it. I'm pleased to report that Sibelius is very healthy and is here to stay. We'll shortly be releasing an 8.6.1 maintenance release that addresses a good number of improvements. As soon as we have more news, we'll post here and on the blog as usual. Sam -- Sam Butler | Product Manager | Sibelius sam.butler@avid.com | @avid_sam | @AvidSibelius Contact the Sibelius support team: www.sibelius.com/documents/contact_form.html KB and other resources: www.sibelius.com/support Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Chris Crawley - 12 Jul 12:32PM Hide picture "Chris, Sibelius is actually going really well, despite what you report here. I've recently returned from a trip to our head office in Burlington, MA, where we laid out the next several years of releases and the overall business plan to match it. I'm pleased to report that Sibelius is very healthy and is here to stay." Thank you, Sam. Actually, I wasn't "reporting" in the journalistic sense, as I don't have access the facts. Nor do I swallow your claim "... Sibelius is very healthy and is here to stay." Recent experience does not support that, especially the "healthy" bit. Development has nearly ground to a halt and that is the beef that many of us have with Avid's subscription model. Of course, if you were to provide facts and figures to dispute that, many here would view them with interest. -- Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico 1.1, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 2.0.2, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100 Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Adrian Drover - 12 Jul 12:37PM Hide picture Well, Sam, I sure hope that improvements in 8.6.1 will enable me to actually use it as a working tool. I've so far paid more than 150 quid in subscriptions and got nothing but breakages. Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Rob Tuley - 12 Jul 03:46PM (edited 12 Jul 03:47PM) Hide picture Sorry, but I don't take anybody seriously who equates "going really well" and "we have a nice looking long term plan." Especially what all that information comes from "head office," not from the boots on the ground (of course head office gets told whatever head office wants to hear, if the people doing the telling have any political sense at all!) That's not a personal attack - I said ANYBODY, not any particular individual! -- Rob Sib 4.1, Windows 10. Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Bob Morabito - 12 Jul 03:57PM (edited 12 Jul 03:58PM) Hide picture Posted by Sam @ Sibelius - 12 Jul 12:16PM Hi All, I removed the thread as there were some personal and indirect attacks on staff here, and that goes against the terms of use. To review these terms, and how we expect everyone to behave, please see the forum guide: http://www.sibelius.com/forum/advice.html Chris, Sibelius is actually going really well, despite what you report here. I've recently returned from a trip to our head office in Burlington, MA, where we laid out the next several years of releases and the overall business plan to match it. I'm pleased to report that Sibelius is very healthy and is here to stay. We'll shortly be releasing an 8.6.1 maintenance release that addresses a good number of improvements. As soon as we have more news, we'll post here and on the blog as usual. Posted by Chris Crawley - 12 Jul 12:32PM "Chris, Sibelius is actually going really well, despite what you report here. I've recently returned from a trip to our head office in Burlington, MA, where we laid out the next several years of releases and the overall business plan to match it. I'm pleased to report that Sibelius is very healthy and is here to stay." Thank you, Sam. Actually, I wasn't "reporting" in the journalistic sense, as I don't have access the facts. Nor do I swallow your claim "... Sibelius is very healthy and is here to stay." Recent experience does not support that, especially the "healthy" bit. Development has nearly ground to a halt and that is the beef that many of us have with Avid's subscription model. Of course, if you were to provide facts and figures to dispute that, many here would view them with interest. First off Sam, thanks for your reply-- Im sorry to disagree, but there were NO "personal and indirect attacks on staff here" IMHO--and I do find it very disappointing, Sam, that the truth, the very SIMPLE truth--that every release of Sib is bug ridden, breaks other features, and offers a questionable feature with each release, and are not following the promised frequency of releases is being made out to be an attack, to get rid of it, hide it, when its simply the truth. Can you please explain to me how this is an attack? Thanks so much Now regarding your reply, and Chris' response to it--which might be taken by some as a "personal or indirect attack" or being unpleasant, but be that as it may it simply is TRUE, and I also would welcome more information to back up your reply, as statements are being made by Sibelius staff, which when looked at simply arent true.Thanks so much. For example please see http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=712345&groupid=3&words=updates&name=Morabito#712418 >>>>>>> Pls see the following concerning updates/upgrades: http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/namm-2017-talking-sibelius-with-sam-butler/ “We used to release upgrades and new features every two years, and we’re now releasing new features every few months,” Sam said in a post on Avid’s official blog from October 2016. “The goal is to continue to release the larger features every few months, but also release smaller fixes when they are ready—saving users from waiting for an important fix.” (The official AVID blog that contains this quote can be found here : http://www.avidblogs.com/sibelius-a-look-ahead/ ) http://www.avid.com/campaigns/sibelius-8-upgrade "without the software getting in the way. And we continue to do so through a steady stream of updates and upgrades." http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=676885&groupid=3&&guest=1#676885 "When will we see new features? The next version of Sibelius will be released later in this quarter (i.e. before July). We'll the continue to release new features and functionality regularly after this. http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/sibelius-8-4-released/ "In time it would not be surprising to see more regular updates to Scorch released in tandem with Sibelius updates. Sibelius product designer Joe Pearson hinted as much recently when he said, “In terms of future development, you can expect to see much more regular updates as we go forward.” http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/next-sibelius-release/ "Avid plans to move away from version numbers with Sibelius and instead offer more frequent releases," "Avid also says that future Sibelius upgrades will be more closely integrated with Sibelius Cloud Publishing, other products on the Avid MediaCentral Platform, and the Avid Marketplace community, although specific details were not available at this time." And in regard to this, below are the list of the dates of all the Sib 8 releases I could find ( NB I added 8.6 into this): Sibelius 8 June 18 2015 / Sibelius 8.0.1 September 29, 2015 Sibelius 8.1 January 21, 2016 / Sibelius 8.1.1 February 8, 2016 Sibelius 8.2 Mar 31, 2016 Sibelius 8.3 May 5, 2016 Sibelius 8.4 Jun 27, 2016 / Sibelius 8.4.1 Jun 30, 2016 / Sibelius 8.4.2 Aug 24, 2016 Sibelius 8.5 Dec 1, 2016 / Sibelius 8.5.1 Jan 19, 2017 Sibelius 8.6 June 1, 2017 Major updates: Sib 8 to 8.1 ---7 months Sib 8.1 to 8.2--- 2 months Sib 8.2 to 8.3--- 1.1 months Sib 8.3 to 8.4 ---1.7 months Sib 8.4 to 8.5-- 5 months Sib 8.5 to 8.6--- 6 months and while the updates that came very close together--the 3 middle ones might have been only to get people to subscribe by the end of the announced year (June/July) , they are the most regular stream of updates there and what a lot of people expected to continue per AVIDS sayso (pls see above) when subscribing. Also it should be taken into consideration the large amount of bugs, and questionable new features. It seems each new release breaks something it then has to fix in the next update. >>>>>>>>>>>>> So Sam, here we see your word and other Sibelius employees about the frequency of updates proving to be sorry to say, simply untrue--no attack simply fact. And this goes to your reply above Sam..is it just more of the "tell them ANYTHING to subscribe and not scare off other people"---IOW hide the truth, while Sibelius continues to worsen? I think a very fair estimate of a SIb release might be something along the lines of: (number of features offered) times (importance of features offered) divided by (the amount of bugs introduced) times (the amount of other features broken) times (the amount of months since the last release). Finally Sam it simply CANT be that SO many users are complaining about the bugs, broken features etc to simply ignore it and toss it off as "personal or indirect attacks on Sibelius staff". This is an insult to the user base whose $$$$ supports Sib and pays the salary of AVID and people like yourself..and to me its a "personal or indirect attack" on ALL of us, the sad way things are being handled. How about honesty and FIXING Sib and the situation as it is??? Thanks Bob -- Bob Morabito Dorico 1.0.30 Sib 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5.1 Fin 2014.5 Mac OS 10.9.5 iMac 32GB RAM, 1 TB SSD https://soundcloud.com/bob-morabito Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Adrian Drover - 13 Jul 07:29AM (edited 13 Jul 07:37AM) Hide picture Posted by Sam @ Sibelius - 12 Jul 12:16 Chris, Sibelius is actually going really well, despite what you report here. If this is so, Sam, why are there so many users unhappy with the way Sib is now being maintained? I've recently returned from a trip to our head office in Burlington, MA, where we laid out the next several years of releases and the overall business plan to match it. Would it be too much to ask what you have decided for the future of Sibelius? I'm pleased to report that Sibelius is very healthy and is here to stay. I'm glad you're happy, Sam. But should Avid not be trying to make its users happy? That plainly is not the case. It seems to me that your customers have completely lost confidence in the future of Sibelius. I certainly have and that is a terrible shame. Sibelius used to be the world leader. Now it is a lame duck with no visible future. Why else would I still have to be using 7.1.3 to get my work done when I have already paid thru' the nose for 8.6? I am very unhappy. Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Sam at Sibelius - 13 Jul 10:46AM Hide picture Hi Adrian, Since joining nearly 15 years ago, we've always kept our roadmap and direction as secret as we can. Nothing has changed in this regard and even more so since 2006 when we became part of a public company that has even more stringent rules on how open we can be. That said, you'll be able to see that we're tackling not just the score writing market with a single app, but the whole end-to-end workflow from music creation to publishing to consumption, across several markets. We're building on these products and I'll be announcing new features and solutions as soon as I can. Sam -- Sam Butler | Product Manager | Sibelius sam.butler@avid.com | @avid_sam | @AvidSibelius Contact the Sibelius support team: www.sibelius.com/documents/contact_form.html KB and other resources: www.sibelius.com/support Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Laurence Payne - 13 Jul 11:01AM Hide picture Looking through the Avid product list, I see that you continue to promote AudioScore. "AudioScore Ultimate 8 is the full featured version of the AudioScore Lite audio transcription software included with Sibelius. With AudioScore Ultimate 8, you can quickly and easily turn CD tracks, MP3s, MIDI files, and even your own vocal and instrument performances into detailed music notation. It's the ultimate music composing secret weapon for your Sibelius workflow." There's a demo at http://www.neuratron.com/audioscore.htm Try it. Comments? Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Paolo Tramannoni - 13 Jul 01:29PM (edited 14 Jul 10:23AM) Hide picture If someone can read investor relation documents, there is an official statement from Avid. This should be better than any speculation on how the company is doing. I'm not able to correctly read it, so I can't figure the future of Sibelius from this kind of data. https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/05/10/981683/0/en/Avid-Technology-Announces-Q1-2017-Results-and-Issues-Q2-2017-Guidance.html Paolo Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Chris Crawley - 13 Jul 01:52PM (edited 13 Jul 02:03PM) Hide picture I have a theory - partly derived from Sam's comments and partly from the stuff Paolo references (which I confess I don't fully understand). Avid is burying Sibelius in with all the other software it produces. This concept is "...the whole end-to-end workflow from music creation to publishing to consumption." How many composers or arrangers want a program that's integrated with a load of other stuff I don't know - I certainly don't need anything but a notation program plus playback that's decent enough for a demo. My "workflow" runs from "music creation" in my head and with a notation program to printing a score and parts for a performance ("consumption"). If I am fortunate enough to get published, I imagine my Sibelius file will provide a good starting point. My guess is that the "roadmap" (God, how I hate these corporate clichés) therefore is towards increased integration, and there is less and less concentration on the development of what is seen as merely a cog in the machine. For Avid, meagre new versions and the injection of bugs as updates appear are trivial details in a bigger picture. If that is so, Dorico will soon become my program of choice; Steinberg seem less concerned about linking it with other software, though I realise this is one of the programmers' aims. It seems to me that notation capabilities are its main priorities. If I am right, then Avid has lost the plot as far as I'm concerned and my assumptions remain the same as before - namely, that Avid is not going to make development of Sibelius's notation abilities a priority. Anyway, whatever the rationale behind the future of Sibelius, the recent history of updates and my attempts to guess at how things may go merely confirm for me my decision of a while back not to upgrade. Spending money with Avid looks to me like an increasingly pointless idea. -- Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico 1.1, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 2.0.2, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100 Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Adrian Drover - 13 Jul 03:55PM (edited 13 Jul 04:03PM) Hide picture Yes, Chris, this is exactly the same vibes I got from Sam's elated views for the future of Sib. I don't want to see it made part of a whole bunch of other junk for which I have no interest either. Before Tony's original thread got taken down, I seem to remember reading in Sam's post that 200 improvements have been made to Sib. Is that from the beginning of its creation by the brothers Finn, or since the disbanding of the London office and Daniels team? I certainly cannot believe it to be the latter. Does that mean that 8.6 has 200 improvements to 7.1.3? Is there a place somewhere where I can find a list of these "improvements"? I can use 7.1.3. I cannot use 8.6 because it has been wrecked, and I've been stupid enough to pay towards the cost of Avid's wrecking machine. Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Mike Lyons - 13 Jul 06:12PM Hide picture I am also in the same mid. I do not want to go into 'music production' -I have absolutely no interest in that side of things, the province more of engineers, if you ask me - I want to arrange/compose music for various ensembles and publish them or print them for my own band/choir use. I like having a half decent sound for demoing or just for listening for my own pleasure. It seems Avid is trying to create a 'Jack-of-all-trades' suite of programmes in some megalomaniac plan to take over the music market (Avid everywhere. Well, we all know how that story ends. I will never buy (or be able to afford) Pro tools or any of that stuff and I couldn't ever justify doing so to myself. I just want Sibelius to be the best notation and engraving program that it can be. And, increasingly, it isn't! -- Win 10 Pro x64, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.5 NotePerformer, Miroslav Phil, Harmony Asst, GPO4 & 5, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC, Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Adrian Drover - 13 Jul 06:48PM Hide picture Posted by Mike Lyons - 13 Jul 18:12 I just want Sibelius to be the best notation and engraving program that it can be. And I wouldn't mind betting that this is what a high percentage of users want too. After all, Sibelius was created for composers, arrangers and engravers who work for live players, not as a toy for the sole purpose of electronic playback. There is other software that specialises in that, and I want no part of it. Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Bob Morabito - 13 Jul 07:24PM (edited 13 Jul 07:27PM) Hide picture I think its really not all that important what AVID plans to do with Sibelius--Im sorry but it will still be a bug ridden, developmentally dead application, lacking important new features, and a death shadow of what it once was... and it will be even moreso this way, by the time this combination might come into being. And since AVID cant get Sib to work correctly by itself, imagining it as part of a combination with OTHER AVID products kind of makes me want to run for cover, as the ensuing mess will just be a HUGE multiplication of how poorly Sib is doing now...bugs, bugs, bugs..and broken OTHER stuff..and higher subscription fees....and MORE unhappy users, deserting a sinking ship.. It simply WONT be done up right,while the competition surpasses and buries it. I really wish SOMEONE connected with Sib/AVID will have the decency to do the right thing and fix Sib, and address its problems, and user concerns..what was once the best is now a sad dying joke, with long time users the but of this joke.. No attack, just fact. YMMV Thanks Bob -- Bob Morabito Dorico 1.0.30 Sib 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5.1 Fin 2014.5 Mac OS 10.9.5 iMac 32GB RAM, 1 TB SSD https://soundcloud.com/bob-morabito Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Rob Tuley - 13 Jul 07:26PM Hide picture > I just want Sibelius to be the best notation and engraving program that it can be. Even if that leaves it the 5th-best (or worse than that) which is available somewhere else? (I could name the better ones IMO, but there's no point in kicking something that's already on its way to the grave.) -- Rob Sib 4.1, Windows 10. Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Mike Lyons - 13 Jul 09:52PM Hide picture I'm not sure I understand your point, Rob. Sibelius was the best. While I agree that it is definitely well below that high standard now, it can be there again. It might take rebuilding the whole thing from scratch, but it won't get any better if things stay as they are. Mismatching it and shoe-horning it into another program suite will not produce excellence, no matter how much Avid wishes otherwise. -- Win 10 Pro x64, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.5 NotePerformer, Miroslav Phil, Harmony Asst, GPO4 & 5, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC, Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Chris Crawley - 13 Jul 11:19PM (edited 13 Jul 11:22PM) Hide picture I think you're being very optimistic, Mike. When you say, "It might take rebuilding the whole thing from scratch", I'm not sure if you realise the implications. Sibelius might well have to be rebuilt from scratch to achieve things that were not thought of when it was originally launched. But "rebuilt from scratch" means rewriting the code, which probably now amounts to millions of lines. What it really needs is someone (or a team of people) who understands the code and which bits need to change. Now, who are the people who could do that? Until a few years ago they were the people in the London office of Sibelius, before it was acquired by Avid and for a short while thereafter. And what did Avid do to the only people who could actually develop Sibelius? They sacked them. Now, if the program really needs to be totally recoded, who would be able to do that? The people who were sacked by Avid. Hang on a minute... -- Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico 1.1, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 2.0.2, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100 Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Rob Tuley - 13 Jul 11:36PM (edited 13 Jul 11:46PM) Hide picture > I'm not sure I understand your point, Rob. Sibelius was the best. While I agree that it is definitely well below that high standard now, it can be there again. No chance, IMO, unless Avid have a spin-off company breeding genetically modified flying pigs who can also program. Since Daniel's team left, they have been catching up with all the competition at a rate of more than one year per year. Unless they get sidetracked too far down the primrose path of "better playback" (or "better integration with Cubase" which seems to be the worst item where the original time estimates were wildly wrong), the number of things that can't be faked one way or another (even if they aren't properly integrated yet) is dwindling fast. And the output quality of what has been done blows away all the competition (except possibly SCORE, for the few who still use it). As for the "200 bug fixes" mentioned somewhere, Daniel's team actually publish what they fix and add - and the list for the last update was more than 40 pages long. That's "more than 500 improvements" (according to Daniel - I haven't counted them myself!) in FOUR MONTHS since the previous update. Daniel is quite happy to play the "report a bug on Monday, get a statement on Tuesday that they have figured out what's wrong and it will definitely it will be fixed in the next release" game - how does that compare with "IdeaScale"? I haven't been to that site for a long time.... (Actually, the fastest response to a user I've seen from Daniel so far was "yeah, we already noticed that one ourselves, and fixed it yesterday"...) -- Rob Sib 4.1, Windows 10. Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Tony Wakefield - 13 Jul 10:06PM Hide picture Why in this day & age does the so-called `music industry` think and believe that in order to create music or songs, one only has to press a few buttons? And then with a few buttons more they can get the digitalised version of a guitar, a drum kit, a bassoon, a cello, a - God forbid, we can shift a slider and get the swannee whistle to play louder than the xylophone. Nah, we don`t need to write it down on paper - this fancy box will just spew out a near perfect copy of what we used to call `sheet music`. Hey I forgot, we still need paper to put into the printer. Just look at this sheet of paper - ain`t it just beautiful to look at, and to touch. I ain`t much fer readin` what`s on it tho`. I ain`t got that kinda learnin`. Dy`u know that the Beatles wrecked my career. Living only 15 miles from them, there were always two, somethimes three big band dance orchestras playing in at least 25 big towns in Lancashire. That would include Manchester and Liverpool at that time. One by one they were all made redundant. So I never got to spend the `rest of my life` in the sax section of one of these. I started to arrange - what for? I`m still wondering why. The bands all disappeared, as my logic has always been a bit wayward. I got a job at EMI Music Publishing in the music arranging dept, and whad`ya know, All 5 of the damned BBC light orchestras got made redundant. Hire a dance orchestra? Christ, that`s far too expensive, get those lads in who play guitars, drums and sing. D`yu know that Manchester`s (UK) cotton mills, or what`s left of them are being preserved and renovated, to show the school kids what used to take place 175 years ago? Think I`ll renovate the dance orchestra - I only have to open up a few graves (geddit?) and I`ve got 16 guys - ah wait a mo`, the BBC (& EMI) have incinerated all the music I and others wrote. Here`s another tale of woe. EMI had a pianist who used to demo the songs to a potential artiste. In walks Lionel Bart and sings the songs to our piano man who writes them down for Lionel to take away, start a show and rehearsals etc and makes a fortune, whereby our 9 till five piano man on 25 quid a week asks for a share of the royalty. All hell breaks out. Bart is sued and the piano man reprimanded. I don`t know what proportion of royalty `Oliver` has made for EMI but Lionel fell down that day and learned a lesson or two. The musician these days, yes, the guys who write it all down for REAL instruments are still on about `25 quid` (or not much more) a week. Long live a vid eowowowowowow -- Sibelius 6/7/8. Win7. Note Performer, with various other no longer in use programs & audio. Web:http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/tonywakefield Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Rob Tuley - 13 Jul 11:51PM Hide picture > Hey I forgot, we still need paper to put into the printer. Not any more. I've seen a performance of a 5-hour-long work (with a horrendously complex score - probably too tough to even attempt it in Sibelius) with a computer screen sitting on the music stand, not paper! Much easier to handle than 350 pages of A3-size landscape paper! -- Rob Sib 4.1, Windows 10. Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Bob Morabito - 14 Jul 03:56AM (edited 14 Jul 03:57AM) Hide picture Sibelius was the best. While I agree that it is definitely well below that high standard now, it can be there again. It might take rebuilding the whole thing from scratch, but it won't get any better if things stay as they are. Mismatching it and shoe-horning it into another program suite will not produce excellence, no matter how much Avid wishes otherwise. I really feel that the way things are will prove to be simply fatal for Sib. Whats needed IMHO is: 1) a parent company that cares about the program, and is willing to invest time and $$ into it 2) a capable and caring programing, development, and support staff 3) users willing to support the program financially and offer suggestions that will be heard as to features, where the program is going etc.. With Avid/Sibelius again IMHO 1) is totally absent..AVID is ONLY interested in $$$ and doesnt care. 2) is almost totally absent--Sib employees might care, but judging solely on the basis of how bad Sib is, there's simply not the technical expertise ("chops") present in any area to the degree that's needed. 3) users are fed up with the subscription plan, updates that are buggy and include poor choice of feature(s), which breaks other things, infrequent releases etc. Many like myself long for Sib to be the program it was, and could be with a new parent company or complete about face of AVID and its policies; a competent, top notch staff at all levels working on it that would need to be hired, with present staff being retained in other areas as much as possible; and the users made to feel that they're not just 'things' to fork over money for crap. Sorry to say but "D" program that was given birth to by AVID firing the Sibelius staff, has ALL THREE.. which is why its doing so very well, and will continue to do even better. YMMV Thanks Bob -- Bob Morabito Dorico 1.0.30 Sib 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5.1 Fin 2014.5 Mac OS 10.9.5 iMac 32GB RAM, 1 TB SSD https://soundcloud.com/bob-morabito Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Tony Wakefield - 14 Jul 11:03AM Hide picture > > Hey I forgot, we still need paper to put into the printer. > > Not any more. I've seen a performance of a 5-hour-long work (with a horrendously complex score - probably too tough to even attempt it in Sibelius) with a computer screen sitting on the music stand, not paper! Much easier to handle than 350 pages of A3-size landscape paper! The Beatles did even better than your guy. They memorised their output . . . . -- Sibelius 6/7/8. Win7. Note Performer, with various other no longer in use programs & audio. Web:http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/tonywakefield Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Jeff Hale - 14 Jul 02:15PM Hide picture Using a computer screen certainly helps clean up a few bad habits. I was in a rehearsal with a cellist who started tapping his foot, accidentally turning several pages. Using a screen also forces you to read a bit ahead (a good thing) so that you don't have to pause if there's a lag between pages. I've also seen (twice) performances at which a screen hang made the players stop. -- windows 7 and 10 Professional, Sibelius 7.1.3 and 8.6 Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Tony Wakefield - 14 Jul 09:31PM Hide picture > I've also seen (twice) performances at which a screen hang made the players stop. It also happens to the human brain. :) -- Sibelius 6/7/8. Win7. Note Performer, with various other no longer in use programs & audio. Web:http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/tonywakefield Back to top | All threads

Re: Thread has disappeared? Posted by Rob Tuley - 15 Jul 01:49AM Hide picture In the case I described the work was for organ solo, so the performer was already using both hands and both feet for other things. His page-turner was clicking a mouse button. The only slightly surreal occurrence was part way through the interval, when the screen saver kicked in and displayed the Windows 10 logo for a while before blanking the screen! -- Rob Sib 4.1, Windows 10. Back to top | All threads