Messages in this thread

USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - taaniib, 15 Jan 08:16PM
     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 16 Jan 09:54PM
         Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Laurence Payne, 17 Jan 01:12PM
             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 17 Jan 01:56PM
     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Patrick O'Keefe, 17 Jan 05:53PM
         Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 18 Jan 05:31AM
             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Adrian Drover, 18 Jan 08:52AM
                 Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 18 Jan 10:01PM
                     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Laurence Payne, 18 Jan 10:25PM
                         Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 18 Jan 11:19PM
                             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Adrian Drover, 19 Jan 09:09AM
                                 Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Adrian Drover, 19 Jan 09:24AM
                                     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Francesco, 19 Jan 09:40AM
                                         Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Laurence Payne, 19 Jan 01:26PM
                                             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 19 Jan 08:55PM
                                                 Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 19 Jan 09:20PM
                                                     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Laurence Payne, 20 Jan 01:10AM
                                                         Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 20 Jan 02:02AM
                                                             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Patrick O'Keefe, 20 Jan 03:11AM
                                                             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Jarrell, 20 Jan 07:07PM
                                                                 Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 21 Jan 12:33AM
                                                                     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 21 Jan 12:48AM
                                                                     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Patrick O'Keefe, 21 Jan 01:24AM
                                                                         Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 21 Jan 09:26PM
                                                                             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 21 Jan 09:37PM

USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by taaniib - 15 Jan 08:16PM
Hello,
I have written a symphony using Sibelius 7. I would like to use AI to improve the score. Are there programs to do this? Thank you.

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 16 Jan 09:54PM
> I have written a symphony using Sibelius 7. I would like to use AI to improve the score. Are there programs to do this?

Hi taaniib,

Do you mean to make the individual instruments sound more realistic?

Cheers,

Paul

Sibelius 8.7.2 - 2018.7, Note Performer 4, Cubase 9 Pro.

Dell Inspiron 3737, Windows 10, 16GB RAM, 1.70gHz, 64-bit, Intel Core i3.

paulseaman1 (at) hotmail (dot) com

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by Laurence Payne - 17 Jan 01:12PM (edited 17 Jan 01:13PM)
Maybe not quite yet. But there will be! And WON'T we have fun slagging it off :-)

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 17 Jan 01:56PM
> Maybe not quite yet. But there will be! And WON'T we have fun slagging it off:-)

LP - Us Brits are the definitive serial complainers!

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by Patrick O'Keefe - 17 Jan 05:53PM
> I have written a symphony using Sibelius 7. I would like to use AI to improve the score. Are there programs to do this?

If you mean are there programs that will tidy up the score to make it look better, then I'm sure the answer is "Yes". Even the internal Sibelius logic can do a pretty good job. Somebody is probably trying to encode all of Gould's rules and suggestions into a program.

If you are asking if there are programs that will make it sound more realistic, and you want something that goes beyond just a better sound library, then there may be something that can do that, but "improve" is pretty subjective. It had better give you pretty tight control of the results. And, if it exists, you'd better be ready to reject the results.

And if you want something that will take your symphony and make it sound like Beethoven, Mahler, or Boulez, then I'm sure someone has written such a system, but then it isn't YOUR symphony any more. Then you are just assisting an AI box to write a symphony. Don't bother putting your name on it.


--
Patrick O'Keefe

Sib 2024.3, NotePerformer 4, S7Sounds
Win11 x64 Pro Intel i5-8400, 2.80Ghz, 16GB RAM

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Jan 05:31AM (edited 18 Jan 05:36AM)
> And if you want something that will take your symphony and make it sound like Beethoven, Mahler, or Boulez, then I'm sure someone has written such a system, but then it isn't YOUR symphony any more. Then you are just assisting an AI box to write a symphony. Don't bother putting your name on it.

Patrick,

Around ten years ago someone showed me a quick and effective function you could apply in one of the engraving softwares. But I really can't remember which one it was because I hadn't even purchased my first copy of Sibelius.

In any event, it gave you the facility to instantly revoice the brass and saxes in the styles of (say) Sammy Nestico or Neil Hefti etc. I was obviously very impressed, but then when I thought about it on the way home it seemed to me that the arranger would be throwing his talent and skills down the lavatory. Arranging is a beautiful art form and students spend years crafting their skill. So why go and throw it all away for the sake of pressing a magic button?!

Personally, I would feel as though I was cheating the world as well as cheating myself.

Paul

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by Adrian Drover - 18 Jan 08:52AM (edited 18 Jan 11:23AM)
Paul is thinking of Arrange. You write a block chord on one staff, copy it, select a bunch of staves to which you wish to distribute the notes. Then goto NoteInput/Arrange/Arrange. From there, you can choose from Explode or Arrange Style which gives you a whole list of styles including what are supposed to represent the style of well known arrangers (such as Basie, Nestico, Strayhorn, Thad Jones). There are also vanilla options for Explode and Reduce which are limited to picking up exactly four pitches and distributing to exactly four instruments. I'm able to copy 10 pitches from two staves and distribute to ten brass staves. I believe Sib calls this Special Paste [ctrl/shft/v]) Big time saver. I'm with Paul, that using the pre-programmed arranging styles is very bad policy. I'm bloody sure that no big-time arranger uses the same style of voicing for everything he writes. There are factors of register, velocity and voice leading of the lead line that justifies which the style of voicing is best used. The novice needs to know what is best, hanging harmony (thickened line, close block, drop 2, drop 2 & 4, pad, spread.

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Jan 10:01PM (edited 18 Jan 10:06PM)
> Paul is thinking of Arrange. You write a block chord on one staff, copy it, select a bunch of staves to which you wish to distribute the notes. Then goto NoteInput/Arrange/Arrange. From there, you can choose from Explode or Arrange Style which gives you a whole list of styles including what are supposed to represent the style of well known arrangers (such as Basie, Nestico, Strayhorn, Thad Jones).

Ade - Oh thanks a lot. I did not even realize the software it was demonstrated was Sibelius! However, after pondering on the feature for 10 minutes after my friend's demonstration, it never entered my mind again until yesterday. Anyway, I did check through the drop-down list and (surprisingly) they certainly is a plethora of presets structures. I wonder if young college students have submitted such scores to their Composition tutors? I know for a fact that that many (disingenuous) students have used AI essay writing from a wealth of online sites - although colleges have since seriously upped their game in identifying such deceitful entries. Paul

EDIT: I should say, I find it perfectly fine should a student, or otherwise, use the facility purely as a 'study' method. For instance, inputting "Satin Doll" and then comparing each composers' methodologies (although my personal recommendation is to 'lift' the music directly off the CD using your ears).

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by Laurence Payne - 18 Jan 10:25PM
Arrange in Sibelius is hardly AI. It's just a mechanical method of splitting chords onto separate staves. If you compose in short score with this procedure in mind, it can be a time-saver. It's a lot less use on the general run of piano scores, that don't stick to a consistent texture.

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Jan 11:19PM (edited 18 Jan 11:23PM)
> Arrange in Sibelius is hardly AI.

LP - Well it was probably over ten years ago when my friend showed it to me, and to my knowledge Sibelius or Finale were not considering implementing AI into their engraving products? I do have some You Tube videos I can link here tomorrow, which demonstrate how AI can be used to manipulate music - albeit it's not really in the vein of what the OP is insinuating. Paul

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by Adrian Drover - 19 Jan 09:09AM (edited 19 Jan 09:30AM)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 18 Jan 22:25
If you compose in short score with this procedure in mind, it can be a time-saver.
===========================

Short score might be a problem for exploding when harmony notes are written melodically contrapuntal from the lead line or between themselves. But I find playing concerted thickened line from midi keyboard directly onto a single staff, then exploding it to the section a very useful time saver.

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by Adrian Drover - 19 Jan 09:24AM (edited 19 Jan 09:28AM)
I wonder how J.S.Bach and other great composers managed to write their masterpieces w'out help from AI. If composers did so, nothing new would ever be written. AI only uses styles that have already been developed. Nothing is left to artistic thought or imagination. If AI is the future, stop the world. I want to get off.

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by Francesco - 19 Jan 09:40AM
BRAVO Adrian! I think exactly the same!

--
Francesco
---
Sib6.2, Sib Ultimate (not often used...), Win10 x64 Pro, Intel [email protected] GHz, 32GB Ram, Focusrite Clarett+ 4Pre

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Jan 01:26PM
"And WON'T we have fun slagging it off:-)"

See? :-)

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Jan 08:55PM
> I wonder how J.S.Bach and other great composers managed to write their masterpieces w'out help from AI.

Ade - Drugs?! LOL

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Jan 09:20PM (edited 19 Jan 09:32PM)
(taaniib - this may have begun to go a little off piste.)

Ade,

Yes, I do totally see your point and obviously you know your onions. But perhaps look at it from THIS angle:

I think the term here is "mash-up". There are legitimate webstores from which the public can purchase single instrument soundclips, or fully orchestrated (fairly lengthy) passages, of which they can combine/overlay in any way they choose. I believe the genre is called "Vaporwave"? You throw all of your soundbytes into the (Vaporwave) software and it transforms them into a cohesive arrangement. The main editing applications of the software focus on: adding reverb, generating spatiality, panning, lowering tempo, lowering key; but there are many other factors applied. Typically the duration of a piece lasts for up to 60 mins.

The linked track is actually the very first piece I ever heard in this genre. I thought it was a little cheesy upon first hearing it, but then I have to admit it grew on me a little. It sounds like a 60 mins jam, the entire piece grooves (quite seriously from the midpoint onwards), and the mix is also very good.

The guy (Randolph) who runs this channel is a really nice guy and sent me a few personal emails.

Anyway, see what you think...

Paul

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XId-lnm4Gb8

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Jan 01:10AM
'Vapourware' usually refers to software which is announced, advertised, even presold - but never actually completed. :-)

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Jan 02:02AM
> 'Vapourware' usually refers to software which is announced, advertised, even presold - but never actually completed. :-)

LP - Oh, really?; I haven't heard of that before so thanks a lot. Also, I remember the owner of the YT channel informing me that Vaporwave strives to edit/produce music which sounds like it was created during the 80's epoch. You can definitely hear it's made a fine job of doing so. For me, the linked track was very reminiscent of Dave Grusin's 80's record label 'GRP'. Paul

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by Patrick O'Keefe - 20 Jan 03:11AM
Apparently (according to Wikipedia) Vaporwave is a microgenre of electronic music (rather than a product or tool) and has been around since 2010. I guess products purporting to produce vaporwave could be vaporware.

--
Patrick O'Keefe

Sib 2024.3, NotePerformer 4, S7Sounds
Win11 x64 Pro Intel i5-8400, 2.80Ghz, 16GB RAM

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by Jarrell - 20 Jan 07:07PM
>> LP - Oh, really?; I haven't heard of that before so thanks a lot. Also, I remember the owner of the YT channel informing me that Vaporwave strives to edit/produce music which sounds like it was created during the 80's epoch. You can definitely hear it's made a fine job of doing so. For me, the linked track was very reminiscent of Dave Grusin's 80's record label 'GRP'. Paul
>

I admit to being confused - I listened to some of Paul's Vaporware link on YouTube, and read some of Randolph's comments there as well. From his comments it seems he took over people's completed tracks, and then processed them. In other words, creating a playlist, with a little processing, right?

>
> 'Vapourware' usually refers to software which is announced, advertised, even presold - but never actually completed. :-)
>

Vaporware is a term used to describe software that is promoted in some way, but does not actually exist - it has been used in the industry since at least the 1990's.

--
macOS Sonoma 14.5, Sibelius Ultimate 2024.6, PhotoScore & NotateMe Ultimate 2020, Logic Pro X 11.0.1
Mac Mini 2018 3.2 GHz Intel Core i7, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD.

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 21 Jan 12:33AM (edited 21 Jan 12:34AM)
> Apparently (according to Wikipedia) Vaporwave is a microgenre of electronic music (rather than a product or tool) and has been around since 2010.

Hi Patrick,

Actually I can see how it some of the Vapourwave might relate to EDM, now that you mention it.

btw - Firstly, should we not agree upon whether the (correct) term is Vaporwave or Vapourwave, please? ;-)

Paul

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 21 Jan 12:48AM (edited 21 Jan 12:49AM)
> I listened to some of Paul's Vaporware link on YouTube, and read some of Randolph's comments there as well. From his comments it seems he took over people's completed tracks, and then processed them. In other words, creating a playlist, with a little processing, right?

Hi Jarrell,

I just double checked and Randolph's piece does include many songs in their entirety. I distinctly remember him informing me (last year) that this (the link) was one of the very first attempts he made in his his early development stages. But you can still very much hear the "heavy" manipulation of the FX he applied (thick reverb, detuning, dropping the speed). I have actually listened to this 60 mins track many times including whilst I'm arranging on Sibelius.

I'll try and dig out some clearer examples tomorrow evening for you.

Paul

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by Patrick O'Keefe - 21 Jan 01:24AM
> btw - Firstly, should we not agree upon whether the (correct) term is Vaporwave or Vapourwave, please? ;-)

I'm sure that's right up there on the list - right after deciding whether red is a color or a colour.

Actually, I doubt too many people on either side of the pond (where "pond" is Lake Superior for the Canadians) would be too offended if the other side wants to claim their spelling as "correct". Let them have it.


--
Patrick O'Keefe

Sib 2024.3, NotePerformer 4, S7Sounds
Win11 x64 Pro Intel i5-8400, 2.80Ghz, 16GB RAM

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 21 Jan 09:26PM
> I'm sure that's right up there on the list - right after deciding whether red is a color or a colour.

Patrick,

I think (with Canadian's) all French derivative words are spelt in agreeance with the English language.

Paul

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Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 21 Jan 09:37PM (edited 21 Jan 09:42PM)
Patrick,

It seems you have to join (albeit there's no charge) many of the sites from which you can source Vapourwave (type) sound-bytes. What Randolf (sorry, I have been spelling it with a "ph") informed me was that he'd type key-words into the verbatim's and then the search engine would call up everything fitting within those parameters (depending upon how 'wide' your search was).

I inputted "distorted bass guitar" and it produced 189 results.

You can see all of the available tags listed underneath (Bass guitar - Distorted bass - Electric guitar - Energetic Guitar - Industrial).

Paul

https://samplefocus.com/samples?search=Distorted+bass+guitar

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Messages in this thread

USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - taaniib, 15 Jan 08:16PM
     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 16 Jan 09:54PM
         Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Laurence Payne, 17 Jan 01:12PM
             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 17 Jan 01:56PM
     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Patrick O'Keefe, 17 Jan 05:53PM
         Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 18 Jan 05:31AM
             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Adrian Drover, 18 Jan 08:52AM
                 Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 18 Jan 10:01PM
                     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Laurence Payne, 18 Jan 10:25PM
                         Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 18 Jan 11:19PM
                             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Adrian Drover, 19 Jan 09:09AM
                                 Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Adrian Drover, 19 Jan 09:24AM
                                     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Francesco, 19 Jan 09:40AM
                                         Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Laurence Payne, 19 Jan 01:26PM
                                             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 19 Jan 08:55PM
                                                 Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 19 Jan 09:20PM
                                                     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Laurence Payne, 20 Jan 01:10AM
                                                         Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 20 Jan 02:02AM
                                                             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Patrick O'Keefe, 20 Jan 03:11AM
                                                             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Jarrell, 20 Jan 07:07PM
                                                                 Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 21 Jan 12:33AM
                                                                     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 21 Jan 12:48AM
                                                                     Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - Patrick O'Keefe, 21 Jan 01:24AM
                                                                         Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 21 Jan 09:26PM
                                                                             Re: USING AI TO IMPROVE EXISTING SCORE - monsterjazzlicks, 21 Jan 09:37PM