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Font Help - Mac/Windows - Joshua Wiczer, 29 Nov 12:54AM
     Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows - Robin Walker, 29 Nov 01:54PM
         Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows - Joshua Wiczer, 29 Nov 02:18PM
             Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows - Joshua Wiczer, 01 Dec 02:19AM
                 Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows - D Bray, 07 Dec 11:25AM
                     Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows - Joshua Wiczer, 07 Dec 12:03PM

Font Help - Mac/Windows
Posted by Joshua Wiczer - 29 Nov 12:54AM (edited 01 Dec 02:16AM)
Hi,

I'm having a "font issue" and was hoping someone here might be able to help...

I am using a PC (Windows 11) and the publisher I work for is using a Mac. Neither of us will be changing that anytime soon. We are both using the most recent version of Sibelius Ultimate. For the most part, we have no issues working together. Every now and then, though, we have an issue sharing fonts.

The font we're currently having issues with is Menca (which is an OpenType font, so my understanding is that it should be easily shared between a Windows computer and a Mac computer.)

The publisher, on a Mac, changed some of the fonts in the attached file (Lo Vashamayim Hi (test 2)). Specifically, he changed the dedication font to "Menca Thin Italic" and where the composer is listed, changed her name to Menca Medium. You can see a PDF of what this is supposed to look like here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/13_xh8j0kC8iEtBLc_dfKXcqdsGDv-7bZ/view?usp=drive_link

When I open the file (using my PC), I am told there are missing fonts. (A screenshot is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L42osPsLYD5OaHj-GZ6fpmMUxsoPMYNo/view?usp=drive_link We both have the same fonts installed on our computers. I have said to replace "Menca Medium" with the font "Menca Med" and the font "Menca Thin Italic" with the font "Menca Thin" with an italic style. When I open the file, everything looks fine to me. I saved this file (as "Lo Vashamayim Hi (test2) - JW attempt) and made a PDF of it. The Sibelius file is here https://drive.google.com/file/d/14MKixWZS5Up0TTb0jy7XAx-rCV9g2cxI/view?usp=drive_link and my PDF is here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZXEmy46TaBeGhPsmAkgqzDXKbC01mSo2/view?usp=drive_link As far as I can tell, the PDFs look identical.

However, when my publisher opens the Sibelius file, the dedication line (which is supposed to appear in Menca Thin Italic) is Roman and the composer name (manually changed to Menca Medium) appears as "Menca" rather than "Menca Medium".) Here's a screenshot of what he's seeing (at least for the dedication): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LFATYf14UcR8K98pZj_pcd6jieFWc-b6/view?usp=drive_link

My publisher has said that he has is not getting a "missing fonts" dialog box when opening the file (and has never gotten such a message).

Before posting this, I created a Word document (on my PC), where I tested the various fonts. The Word Doc is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G7xMdbGpvTu2oPEc0lpCkqEW8ZsJL1W8/edit?usp=drive_link&ouid=115970083170273591003&rtpof=true&sd=true and a PDF of what this should look like is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LFMa4NkClewSkos67hy0dtER2EGwEOKX/view?usp=drive_link When my publisher opened the Word document (on his Mac), the fonts appeared exactly as they should have appeared (we saw the same thing.) Which leads me to think this is a Sibelius issue.

Any idea either how to fix this or who to reach out to try to resolve this issue?

I apologize for the lengthy message with all the links -- too many things I felt like I needed to share to make this make any sense!

Thanks a lot,
Josh Wiczer
Attachment Lo Vashamayim Hi (test2).sib (337K)

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Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows
Posted by Robin Walker - 29 Nov 01:54PM
There are several issues overlaid in this case: I will attempt to answer them separately:

> My publisher has said that he has is not getting a "missing fonts" dialog box when opening the file (and has never gotten such a message).

This will be because, at some point in the past, your publisher has checked the box "Don't show this again" in the "Missing Fonts" pop-up. To reset this check-box, your publisher should open Sibelius "Preferences" -> "Other" -> "Warning Messages" and click "Show All Messages". After doing that, the publisher should open your score file afresh, to see the list of missing fonts.

> When my publisher opened the Word document (on his Mac), the fonts appeared exactly as they should have appeared (we saw the same thing.)

This is no longer a valid test of font portability across platforms, as Microsoft Office products now embed fonts in documents from the originating computer (just like PDFs do). So anyone can open those documents, and they will be displayed as the originator intended, regardless of what fonts are installed locally.

A more valid test of font portability is to try viewing a document in an application that does NOT embed fonts in documents: Sibelius is one such application.

> The font we're currently having issues with is Menca (which is an OpenType font, so my understanding is that it should be easily shared between a Windows computer and a Mac computer.)

Menca is an example of a font which provides more than the four "standard" styles of Regular, Italic, Bold, Bold Italic, that are recognised by Windows.

Windows and macOS have different ways of dealing with that situation, and pay prime attention to different forms of the internal names within a font. For a font to work cross-platform, it must comply with certain consistency requirements within the OTF specification, so that the various forms of internal name are consistent when combined in the different ways of macOS and of Windows.

I have tested all the Menca fonts with an OTF consistency check test. The following fonts FAIL the required OTF name consistency checks:
- MENCA BLACK
- MENCA MEDIUM ITALIC
- MENCA MEDIUM
Because of these internal inconsistencies in naming, those fonts will not work cross-platform.

> when my publisher opens the Sibelius file, the dedication line (which is supposed to appear in Menca Thin Italic) is Roman

This appears to be a problem in the Sibelius handling of cross-platform font renaming. The "JW attempt" score sent from Windows has the font for style "Dedication" set to Windows Font Family "Menca Thin" Font Style "Italic", but this has been translated to Mac Font "Menca" Font Style "Thin". The final "Italic" has been lost.

> the composer name (manually changed to Menca Medium) appears as "Menca" rather than "Menca Medium".

This has happened because your publisher did not get a chance to choose the correct font in the "Missing Fonts" dialogue, where the default style will be "Regular" (a style which Menca does not supply).

> Any idea either how to fix this or who to reach out to try to resolve this issue?

Frankly, if you are trying to use Sibelius cross-platform, my advice would be to use only fonts that offer styles Regular, Italic, Bold, Bold Italic, only. These are known to work cross-platform.

If you must use fonts that offer other styles, then avoid "Menca", as it has internal OTF naming inconsistencies that create cross-platform difficulties.

And I cannot see a solution to the "xxxx Thin Italic" problem in the translation of Text Style font configurations from Windows to macOS. This looks like a Sibelius issue which an end-user cannot work around, and I suspect that it will affect all such fonts, not just Menca. I will look into this further, but I do not have enough time to do so for most of the rest of this week.

--
Sibelius 2023.6/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2020.1, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.

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Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows
Posted by Joshua Wiczer - 29 Nov 02:18PM
Wow -- thank you so much for your very thorough response! This is incredibly helpful and I will share this with my publisher. I really appreciate the help!

Josh

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Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows
Posted by Joshua Wiczer - 01 Dec 02:19AM
Hi,

Just to follow-up on this (in case anyone else has this issue in this future)... I figured out a way to make the font "Menca Thin Italic" font work. I followed the advice in this post https://themissy.com/2018/font-tutorial-renaming-font-files-for-duplicates-and-organization and created a "new" font, called "Menca Thin Italic 2", from the Menca Thin Italic OTF file. I implemented this font in my Sibelius file, shared this new font with my publisher, and the style is now correct on both of our ends. I'll have to remember this trick in the future, when dealing with these font issues!

Thanks again, Robin, for all of your help with this!

Josh

Josh

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Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows
Posted by D Bray - 07 Dec 11:25AM
I experience a similar problem, since I also work cross-platform a lot of the time.
A further idea that may be useful is to create a text style that you can use to apply the font to other text styles. For example, I have created a basic style called _Bodoni MT. When I define a text item that uses, say, Bodoni MT Italic, I first select the basic style in "Based on". I make sure that the box for "Font" is unchecked and then apply ONLY the style Italic from the drop-down list (see screenshot attached). I can of course select other parameters - size, alignment etc.
This ensures that all the font information is transferred correctly from one platform to the other, and normally the files can be opened correctly by both parties without any surprises.

--
David BRAY-ZAÏM
Sibelius Ultimate 2023.8 on PC and Mac
Attachment Screenshot 2023-12-07 à 12.15.56.png (626K)

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Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows
Posted by Joshua Wiczer - 07 Dec 12:03PM
Thank you! I will give this a try the next time this issue comes up! I really appreciate the tip.

Josh

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Messages in this thread

Font Help - Mac/Windows - Joshua Wiczer, 29 Nov 12:54AM
     Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows - Robin Walker, 29 Nov 01:54PM
         Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows - Joshua Wiczer, 29 Nov 02:18PM
             Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows - Joshua Wiczer, 01 Dec 02:19AM
                 Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows - D Bray, 07 Dec 11:25AM
                     Re: Font Help - Mac/Windows - Joshua Wiczer, 07 Dec 12:03PM