Messages in this thread

Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug - Joachim Linckelmann, 20 Oct 02:45PM
     Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Robin Walker, 20 Oct 03:36PM
         Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Joachim Linckelmann, 20 Oct 04:29PM
             Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Robin Walker, 20 Oct 04:48PM
                 Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Joachim Linckelmann, 20 Oct 06:01PM
                     Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Jody Hughes, 20 Oct 06:37PM
                         Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Justin at Sibelius, 21 Oct 04:55AM
                             Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Joachim Linckelmann, 21 Oct 06:35AM
                                 Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Jody Hughes, 21 Oct 10:08AM
                                     Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Melissa at Sibelius, 23 Oct 06:19PM
                                         Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - João Pais, 29 Oct 07:28AM
                                             Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Jody Hughes, 29 Oct 05:22PM
                                                 Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Joachim Linckelmann, 30 Nov 12:07PM
                                                     Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Mark Dal Porto, 01 Dec 06:41PM

Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Joachim Linckelmann - 20 Oct 02:45PM
Why is it so many times spacing being affected by new versions?

It seems to me a rather new bug, that custom spacing is affected by a reset while adding a slur or a dynamic. Please try in the attached file adding a dynamic text in almost any bar, or a slur in the last bar on the first to notes in the right hand and see what happens with the (custom) spacing.

The spacing reset that this action causes didn’t happen in earlier version, as far as I remember.

Joachim

Sibelius 2023.8 Mac OS 11.7.10
Attachment custom spacing gets lost bug.sib (85K)

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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Robin Walker - 20 Oct 03:36PM
The required sequence for score input is:

- complete all music input, paying no attention to layout, and proof-read it for correctness;
- make whatever custom layout tweaks you wish, remembering that most tweaks will be unstable and liable to change if you make any further edits to the music;
- if you do make any changes to the music, be prepared to make custom layout tweaks all over again.

--
Sibelius 2023.6/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2020.1, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.

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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Joachim Linckelmann - 20 Oct 04:29PM
Hi Robin,

many thanks for your answer.

I simply can’t believe that you seriously mean that a software like Sibelius is not capable of later additions to a score like slurs and dynamics without screwing the fine tuning of the spacing. Again, Sibelius did not do that in earlier versions, it’s a new bug.
If I want to start over with spacing fine tuning I use the dedicated Reset Note spacing command, and not adding slurs and dynamics.
I don’t know how far your are involved into professional music engraving, but it is the most common thing to add things like slurs, dynamics and articulation at say round five between editor and engraver.
In the past it was possible without major problems, since – again – I am talking about a possible new bug.

If Sibelius cannot properly manage such a standard situation it would mean nothing else than a confession of failure.

Joachim


> The required sequence for score input is:
>
> - complete all music input, paying no attention to layout, and proof-read it for correctness;
> - make whatever custom layout tweaks you wish, remembering that most tweaks will be unstable and liable to change if you make any further edits to the music;
> - if you do make any changes to the music, be prepared to make custom layout tweaks all over again.
>
> --
> Sibelius 2023.6/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2020.1, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.

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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Robin Walker - 20 Oct 04:48PM
> Sibelius did not do that in earlier versions

Which earlier version number are you referring to?

--
Sibelius 2023.6/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2020.1, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.

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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Joachim Linckelmann - 20 Oct 06:01PM
Can’t say exactly, because usually I skip some versions. Maybe 2022.12, but obviously I can’t test it anymore. The further you go back, the higher is the probability that you can’t find this bug.

> > Sibelius did not do that in earlier versions
>
> Which earlier version number are you referring to?
>
> --
> Sibelius 2023.6/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2020.1, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.

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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Jody Hughes - 20 Oct 06:37PM
I agree there is a recent change in what causes a Reset Note Spacing. I think it came in the same release as 2partsfrom1stave (or whatever it’s called).

It is also a problem for me, as many more common edits now have spacing consequences. Without thinking about it too much, I have assumed this is an intentional change but would be pleased to discover it isn’t.

Jeremy
--
music editor and engraver
Sibelius Ultimate on a Mac Studio running OS 13.0.1

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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Justin at Sibelius - 21 Oct 04:55AM
I'm not clear on what you're saying Joachim. Can you be more specific as to which spacing things are not working as you expect?

--
Justin Tokke, Senior Product Designer at Sibelius
justin.tokke@avid.com

Contact the Sibelius support team:
https://www.avid.com/learn-and-support/contact-audio-and-music-support

KB and other resources:
https://www.avid.com/sibelius/learn-and-support

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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Joachim Linckelmann - 21 Oct 06:35AM
Hi Justin,

adding a slur or a dynamic (and other markings?) currently can have an impact on horizontal spacing, which they never did before. In my example file (see above first post) add for instance a slur in the last bar on the first two notes in the right hand and see what happens to the spacing in this bar. Or add the an expression text.
Sibelius did not show this behaviour in earlier versions (see also Jeremy’s post for confirmation).

Joachim

> I'm not clear on what you're saying Joachim. Can you be more specific as to which spacing things are not working as you expect?
>
> --
> Justin Tokke, Senior Product Designer at Sibelius
> justin.tokke@avid.com
>
> Contact the Sibelius support team:
> https://www.avid.com/learn-and-support/contact-audio-and-music-support
>
> KB and other resources:
> https://www.avid.com/sibelius/learn-and-support

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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Jody Hughes - 21 Oct 10:08AM
Hi again

I think there is at least a small bug here. If I have made manual spacing adjustments of any kind in a bar, and later add a Comment, the manual spacing is automatically removed.

There are other things that have recently come to affect the spacing, like adding symbols, for which I can find no good reason.

Let me know if you need more info.

J
--
music editor and engraver
Sibelius Ultimate on a Mac Studio running OS 13.0.1

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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Melissa at Sibelius - 23 Oct 06:19PM
Thanks guys, verified this does not repro in 22.5, logging this.

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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by João Pais - 29 Oct 07:28AM (edited 29 Oct 07:29AM)
I can also confirm this behaviour. It is quite annoying, as small edits can happen anytime in the engraving process. And very frustrating, as after you've layoutted a complete page in a symphony, by adding one text or line element you need to re-check the whole page again.
This is 100% a consequence of the new spacing changes where hidden voices are ignored.

One way to avoid it seems to be to create the element somewhere else where it's innocuous and drag it to the place where it's necessary, or alt+click to copy it into the bar. But this is hardly a solution, and not practical with lines.

Best,
Joao

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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Jody Hughes - 29 Oct 05:22PM
Hi

Alt-clicking doesn't fix it for me. Also, dragging an object only works in the score, which is often not where I am making corrections and amendments.

Jeremy
--
music editor and engraver
Sibelius Ultimate on a Mac Studio running OS 13.0.1

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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Joachim Linckelmann - 30 Nov 12:07PM
I have to come back to this issue, since I am constantly running into this bug, while working on changes and corrections of already existing projects. All my fine tuning gets removed in the bars respectively in the systems I am working on. This is a major disaster.

I very much hope for the future of using Sibelius that you will be able to remove this bug.

Joachim


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Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug
Posted by Mark Dal Porto - 01 Dec 06:41PM (edited 01 Dec 06:44PM)
Has this spacing issue been resolved yet in the latest update (2023.11)? I didn't see it listed under bug fixes for this release.
--
Sibelius Ultimate 2023.8, Windows 10 Pro 32GB, Note Performer 3.3.2
markdalporto.com

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Messages in this thread

Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new bug - Joachim Linckelmann, 20 Oct 02:45PM
     Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Robin Walker, 20 Oct 03:36PM
         Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Joachim Linckelmann, 20 Oct 04:29PM
             Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Robin Walker, 20 Oct 04:48PM
                 Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Joachim Linckelmann, 20 Oct 06:01PM
                     Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Jody Hughes, 20 Oct 06:37PM
                         Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Justin at Sibelius, 21 Oct 04:55AM
                             Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Joachim Linckelmann, 21 Oct 06:35AM
                                 Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Jody Hughes, 21 Oct 10:08AM
                                     Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Melissa at Sibelius, 23 Oct 06:19PM
                                         Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - João Pais, 29 Oct 07:28AM
                                             Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Jody Hughes, 29 Oct 05:22PM
                                                 Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Joachim Linckelmann, 30 Nov 12:07PM
                                                     Re: Custom spacing gets destroyed, possible new... - Mark Dal Porto, 01 Dec 06:41PM