Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 14 Mar 10:16PM Hide picture Hi folks, I have just finished scoring 18 new pieces for my recently formed quintet (the task has me nearly three long months!). I am considering 'numbering' the pad - through stating the number (of each piece) in the top-RH corner of every part. In the attached I have used the colour red and boxed system text. It looks OK to me; however, it's my very first attempt and so I wondered if any other members employ a similar system? At the end of a gig, or before a rehearsal (yes, we do actually rehearse!), I am finding it too time consuming putting everyone's bloody pad back in order! ;-/ Many thanks in advance for any kind assistance offered here. Best, Paul David Seaman (UK) Sibelius 8.6 (v. 2018.1 / build 1449 / born 2018-01-22) Dell Inspiron 3737, Windows 10, 16GB RAM, 1.70gHz, 64-bit, Intel Core i3. paulseaman1 (at) hotmail (dot) com Attachment Numbering_Sib.png (131K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 14 Mar 10:18PM Hide picture PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kJPRDDP-D--h_bO7dx7jREMY-RQbCqa3/view?usp=sharing Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 14 Mar 10:20PM Hide picture Sib: Attachment Numbering.sib (99K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Laurence Payne - 14 Mar 11:24PM (edited 14 Mar 11:25PM) Hide picture Sure, that looks fine. Or just append #xx to the Title. Or do what most bands do, scribble it onto the printed parts manually. Do you really want to re-print everything you've already done? Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 14 Mar 11:29PM Hide picture > Sure, that looks fine. Or just append #xx to the Title. Or do what most bands do, scribble it onto the printed parts manually. Hi Laurence, My handwriting is utterly dreadful (every teacher and doctor I know suffers with the same hindrance!). I think I would prefer to leave the titles intact as they are (ie. treat them as separate entities - which they kinda' are, really). I'm pleased you like the first attempt I posted though! ;-) Cheers. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 14 Mar 11:32PM Hide picture . . . if you notice (I'm sure you did!), I attached the system boxed text to the very last quarter note of the fourth measure. Would this be correct procedure, please? Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Laurence Payne - 14 Mar 11:47PM Hide picture Are you adding these numbers in each individual Part? It might be more robust to create a System Text Style based on 'Composer', with a higher position and larger font, and use it just once, in the Score. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Adrian Drover - 15 Mar 07:18AM (edited 15 Mar 07:25AM) Hide picture Are you printing your parts in colour? Why the red box? Prominent colouring (if any) is best reserved for easy location of signs and codas; nothing else. If you start decorating other stuff in colour, the important things in your parts will be obscured. Library numbering is normally scribbled manually at top right in pencil. Regarding your attachment point. Your present location shouldn't be a problem, tho' normally, header style text is usually attached to measure 1. As Laurence has already stated, it would be wise to create a new system text style for library numbering and save it in your manuscript paper template (if you have one exported). Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 15 Mar 02:59PM (edited 15 Mar 03:24PM) Hide picture > Are you printing your parts in colour? Why the red box? Ade - Taking the above into consideration, I actually have to agree with you somewhat. The red number box does look a little too eye-drawling (though because it's in red, not because it's in a box). I am very fond of the box, be it in whatever colour. My intention was to have the number-box in boxed-red and everything else in the entire score in black. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 15 Mar 03:05PM Hide picture > Prominent colouring (if any) is best reserved for easy location of signs and codas; nothing else. Ade - Yes, I totally see now. However, the size of my icons are (I would say) extra-large. Therefore, if I rendered them in 'red' also then would this not be overkill? Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 15 Mar 03:20PM (edited 15 Mar 03:27PM) Hide picture > Regarding your attachment point. Your present location shouldn't be a problem, tho' normally, header style text is usually attached to measure 1. As Laurence has already stated, it would be wise to create a new system text style for library numbering and save it in your manuscript paper template (if you have one exported). Ade - OK, that makes sense about 'headers' being attached to the very first bar. My OP was just something I quickly knocked together. To be honest, I work a little differently now - rather than start each new arrangement from a template manuscript paper, I will choose an existing (ie. completed) score which is close to the unstarted score in terms of: time sig., key sig., genre; and construct the new score upon these parameters. This saves a ton of time because the layout is likely to be similar and all of the icons will be in existence. I will still have the original 'monsterjazzlicks' House Style (yourselves helped me to create some years back) on one of my HDs. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 15 Mar 03:35PM Hide picture > Are you adding these numbers in each individual Part? It might be more robust to create a System Text Style based on 'Composer', with a higher position and larger font, and use it just once, in the Score. LP. - In my OP I used Plain Boxed System Text (on the full score) to create the (top RH) part number. So obviously it (the same number) appears in all parts. You knew that already though! ;-) I think I get the gist of what you mean, thanks; but it's not something I have done before. Will I need to create a NEW System Text Style, or EDIT the 'Composer' text, please? Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 15 Mar 07:19PM (edited 17 Mar 02:31AM) Hide picture As an alternative to the top-RH (arrangement #) original text, I have applied italic Style to font Reprise Title STD. Also, as Adrian suggested, the colour red to all road map icons. See what you think . . . https://drive.google.com/file/d/19vLaF2TBp2fi6cHDvP00G6rWxfVl5Qkk/view?usp=sharing Attachment Numbering.sib (88K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Adrian Drover - 15 Mar 08:03PM Hide picture What do you mean by road map icon? I only suggested, if you have the facility to print in colour, red should only be used to mark land marks quickly (such as sign & coda), nothing else. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 15 Mar 10:28PM (edited 16 Mar 12:14AM) Hide picture > What do you mean by road map icon? I only suggested, if you have the facility to print in colour, red should only be used to mark land marks quickly (such as sign & coda), nothing else. I really don't see what else "road map icon" could possibly mean?, frankly - despite it being a slightly unconventional term. It seems pretty obvious it relates to the 'geography' of the arrangement; in which case I'm assuming you did not view the Google Drive exported PDF I linked? Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 16 Mar 11:16PM (edited 16 Mar 11:17PM) Hide picture > It might be more robust to create a System Text Style based on 'Composer', with a higher position and larger font, and use it just once, in the Score. Hi Laurence, I created a text based upon 'Composer', changing the text-size, font, and positioning. I think it does not look to bad, actually. I was not able to find where you can make it auto-underline though?; however, it only takes two seconds vis CTL+U. Cheers. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VOTnuyoyCBs-tu9eDbkNaZnL-nIBqNzJ/view?usp=sharing Attachment Numbering.sib (88K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Adrian Drover - 17 Mar 07:44AM Hide picture Select your Library Number text and goto Text/Styles/Edit on the ribbon or hit (ctrl/alt/shft/t). Then Edit. Then check the Underline box. OK. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 17 Mar 04:41PM Hide picture > Select your Library Number text and goto Text/Styles/Edit on the ribbon or hit (ctrl/alt/shft/t). Then Edit. Then check the Underline box. OK. Brilliant, got it! I think I missed it through tiredness last night. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 17 Mar 09:08PM (edited 17 Mar 09:09PM) Hide picture . . . the 'Library Number' (self-created) text only seems to appear within the Sib. score in which I initially created it in. Once created, should it not appear globally? Many thanks. Attachment Library Text.png (78K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 17 Mar 09:11PM Hide picture Sib.: Attachment Numbering.sib (88K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Laurence Payne - 18 Mar 12:57AM Hide picture > . . . the 'Library Number' (self-created) text only seems to appear within the Sib. score in which I initially created it in. Once created, should it not appear globally? Many thanks. No, it doesn't work like that. Export a Manuscript Paper or a House Style. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Mar 03:44PM (edited 18 Mar 03:55PM) Hide picture > No, it doesn't work like that. Export a Manuscript Paper or a House Style. LP. Ok, OK - thanks! I'll have an experiment... Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Mar 03:56PM Hide picture I exported the House Style and it appears when I select Import House Style. Attachment LN1.png (55K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Mar 03:58PM Hide picture . . . but it does not appear in the list of Texts when I try to search for it in the new (Imported House Style) project? Attachment LN2.png (58K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Mar 11:43AM Hide picture When you imported the House Style, was Text Styles ticked? Attachment Screenshot 2023-03-19 114158.png (74K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Mar 03:44PM (edited 19 Mar 03:45PM) Hide picture > When you imported the House Style, was Text Styles ticked? LP. - Most of the check boxes are greyed out; unless I'm being a dork! Attachment LN3.png (48K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 12:14AM Hide picture > When you imported the House Style, was Text Styles ticked? LP. - I ditched the House Style and made another one, then it worked straight away! Parts numbering scheme was also imported! ;-) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 12:19AM (edited 20 Mar 12:20AM) Hide picture If I have a song called St. Thomas and another called Sombre Samba, then which way round should they be placed/numbered in the pad, please? The second letter of Saint is 'a', which would mean it should fall before Sombre Samba. However, the abbreviation of Saint (St.) renders the second letter a 't', which would mean it should fall after Sombre Samba! ;-/ Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Mark Isaacs - 20 Mar 01:04AM (edited 20 Mar 01:08AM) Hide picture This reference mentions your specific conundrum: https://blogs.transparent.com/english/english-alphabetizing-rules/ It says "Oh, and that tricky prefix St.? It’s an abbreviation of Saint, so you must alphabetize it as if it was fully written out." It was interesting to Google around for you, as the answer was not obvious to me at first blush. You could conceivably consider Googling for yourself for such OT non-Sibelius questions. -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 01:17AM Hide picture Hi there Mr Mark, I hope you are well and busy. Thanks for your help again. I had a quick scan of the link, cheers. It's quite interesting, I'll have a good read tomorrow. The reason I posted the question here is because it is in direct relation to the above discussion, relating to 'numbering' one's library (albeit I admit this was not the 'official' subject matter of this thread!). Personally, I don't always take Google's word for it (pun not intended). Also, I specifically wanted to hear the practical advice of an arranger/composer/librarian (say, a professional like your good-self) from a 'musical' perspective. I'm sure you know what I mean here. Cheers. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 01:19AM Hide picture > It says "Oh, and that tricky prefix St.? It’s an abbreviation of Saint, so you must alphabetize it as if it was fully written out." MI. - That's kinda' what I was expecting it to be, for better or worse. Thanks. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Mark Isaacs - 20 Mar 01:44AM (edited 20 Mar 01:47AM) Hide picture I don't think there's a "musical" perspective here that answers your question specifically in the context of an arranger and their "pad". I think the decision is subject to the general rules of alphabetisation. A somewhat more reliable source is Wikipedia. Speaking as a Wikipedia editor myself, I can say that the collaborative effort of many editors, and the behind the scenes discussions, even "wars", moves the encyclopaedia as close to being reliable as possible, particularly for non-contentious issues. And here's Wikipedia's take on your specific issue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabetical_order#St_prefix Note it says it is "traditional" to treat "St." as if it were "Saint" in an alphabetical list, but acknowledges that in the computer age, the other option comes up. -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Mark Isaacs - 20 Mar 02:06AM (edited 20 Mar 02:12AM) Hide picture Similarly OT re traditional vs. computer age edition conventions, if the monster doesn't mind me hijacking the end of this thread... Traditionally, a score, like a book, would have a title page "front cover", and then likely another page (or more) of "front matter". The first page of actual music is always page 1 (i.e. the preceding pages are unnumbered), though the "1" is not shown, as it is obvious since this page repeats the title and other key info at the top. So the first numbered page of music will be "2". Trouble is, a score will mostly be a computer file these days, and if you want to print specific pages you can't then use the page numbers as shown without adding an offset for the unnumbered title page and any front matter pages. I am taking a stand that in the computer age, where a score is shopped around as a PDF or music notation file, the literal first page (title page) should be page 1, though the number would be hidden. Similarly hiding the numbers on the front matter and the first page of music, the first numbered page would be page 4, if there is a title page and one page of front matter. This way you could print any pages you want by referencing the shown page number for a direct guide as to what to put into the print dialog. If the PDF was later used as a basis to physically do a published edition for sale, then it would be easy and advisable to change it back to the traditional book system, since books/published scores don't have "Print" buttons! Are there any meticulous music engravers out there who would care to comment? -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Adrian Drover - 20 Mar 07:24AM Hide picture I don't see why the alphabetical order of titles needs to influence library or catalogue numbering. Numbering normally shows the order in which the charts were created. If the charts were filed in alphabetical order, there would be no need to number them. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Mark Isaacs - 20 Mar 10:57AM Hide picture >> I don't see why the alphabetical order of titles needs to influence library or catalogue numbering. Numbering normally shows the order in which the charts were created. If the charts were filed in alphabetical order, there would be no need to number them I thought that, I must admit, but shied away from thickening the plot. Couldn't work out why you'd number AND alphabetise, and what basis the numbering could be on other than what the alphabetical order itself produces. Belt and braces, maybe? -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 03:08PM Hide picture > I don't think there's a "musical" perspective here that answers your question specifically in the context of an arranger and their "pad". I think the decision is subject to the general rules of alphabetisation. Mark - OK, thanks for confirming. I was not sure if muso's were a little more cavalier towards such alphabetic, or otherwise, rulings. Paul Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 03:20PM (edited 20 Mar 03:21PM) Hide picture > A somewhat more reliable source is Wikipedia. Speaking as a Wikipedia editor myself, I can say that the collaborative effort of many editors, and the behind the scenes discussions, even "wars", moves the encyclopaedia as close to being reliable as possible, particularly for non-contentious issues. Mark - With absolutely no disrespect whatsoever, I have always had my doubts as to how reliable a source Wiki is. A long time ago, I myself (I don't know what possessed me at the time) spent quite a number of hours correcting errors within the field of musical (jazz) recordings. There were all kinds of mistakes. Some of my corrections were removed though! In any event, at the time it seemed that literally anyone could amend anything they saw unfit for purpose, whether or not they be a pundit or buffoon. btw - I do use Wiki quite often, I have to admit, and have made small financial donations from time to time. Paul Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 03:25PM Hide picture > Note it says it is "traditional" to treat "St." as if it were "Saint" in an alphabetical list, but acknowledges that in the computer age, the other option comes up. Mark - Yes, quite. This was actually my original intention ("Saint") so it's great to know I can leave my texts in place, thanks. Paul Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 03:41PM (edited 20 Mar 03:55PM) Hide picture > I don't see why the alphabetical order of titles needs to influence library or catalogue numbering. Numbering normally shows the order in which the charts were created. If the charts were filed in alphabetical order, there would be no need to number them. Ade - This may sound a little overkill, I admit: When I have played in many bands on board cruise ships etc, quite often the bandleader has written a pad in which she/he has obviously numbered AFTER finishing all of the arrangements. I mean, she/he has compiled (say) 30 songs after which they have placed them in alphabetical order and THEN numbered them (as I intend to do). The main two reasons I have been given for such action are that: Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 03:56PM Hide picture . . . If the pad gets dropped at the end of the night (we've all done it!), or the individual performer carelessly throws all of the parts back into the folder, then having the parts NUMBERED makes it easier/quicker for the bandleader to reorder the pieces correctly. I agree with this method entirely because it really does take a significant amount of time to correct a pad using the alphabet scheme. Plus, as you can appreciate with the above "Saint" example, there may be a scenario where two or more musicians have their own (forgivable) perceptions. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 03:57PM (edited 20 Mar 03:57PM) Hide picture . . . If you are playing a dance-set with lots of fast segues, and calling out tunes on the fly, if (say) song 1 begins with an A, song 5 with a B, and song 99 with a Z, you can see that there is a logical correlation between the title of the song (ie. the first letter) and where it is most probably going to physically be positioned within the pad. The alternative is to give this no consideration rendering a library in which song 1 begins with a P, song 5 with a W, and song 77 with a C. Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 04:00PM Hide picture (I had to reduce the above text into three responses because the system would not accept it as a whole - ie. "Access Denied") Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 04:22PM (edited 20 Mar 04:26PM) Hide picture > Couldn't work out why you'd number AND alphabetise, and what basis the numbering could be on other than what the alphabetical order itself produces. Belt and braces, maybe? Mark - I always found it somewhat fascinating to realize, though slightly condoling, when joining a band and the pad is numbered/ordered using the robust scheme I favour; but then at some point in the library you experience the system being broken. For instance: song 99 is letter Z; but then song 100 is letter J; and song 101 is letter E. The point of departure at song 100 signifies the (heart-breaking!) precise juncture at which the arranger had to deviate from his legend. Now (I may as well continue!), I have recently completed 18 songs for my (quintet) pad. However, there is to be a maximum total of 25 songs. And so, because I have already decided which the other 7 songs are going to be, I can simply take this into account when numbering the existing finished arrangements. For instance, I have 'reserved' number 12 for (Horace Silver) "Song For My Father" because I already know that it will be falling after the physically completed (Sonny Rollins) "St. Thomas". Paul Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 06:43PM Hide picture . . . I'm sure even Mike will come 'round to my way of thinkin'! ;-) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Mar 08:13PM Hide picture Is this pad the culmination of your life's work, now completed, with no possible future additions? Otherwise you'll have to re-number and reprint. Obviously an out-of-alphabetical-sequence addition would be unthinkable! "This may sound a little overkill, I admit!" I must buy you a t-shirt saying that :-) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 09:41PM Hide picture > "This may sound a little overkill, I admit!" I must buy you a t-shirt saying that :-) LP. - All donations most welcome. Just make sure it's an XXXXL size because I have put on a lot weight since lockdown! ;-/ Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 09:48PM (edited 20 Mar 09:52PM) Hide picture > Is this pad the culmination of your life's work, now completed, with no possible future additions? Otherwise you'll have to re-number and reprint. Obviously an out-of-alphabetical-sequence addition would be unthinkable! LP. - I have deliberately set myself an upper-limit (ie. 25) because I have a tendency to go off-piste. I keep discovering new titles I want to transcribe which forever takes me away from my original action-plan. And so, these 25 tunes are all songs I have wanted to arrange for quintet since before I even knew how to transcribe! (ie. way back in 1986!). Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Mar 11:59PM Hide picture All 'number' titles to the front, please! Attachment 74.png (49K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Suitable Text and Colour Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 21 Apr 04:48PM Hide picture ...for the hell of it I created a '00' piece! ;-) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EwEi_qHydXRGKsJ89XbU26cPEW4y3Fju/view?usp=sharing Back to top | All threads