'Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally move position in PDF output'

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Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally move po... - Mark Isaacs, 22 Jan 01:34AM
     Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally mov... - Andy G, 22 Jan 09:36AM
         Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally mov... - Robin Walker, 22 Jan 09:50AM
             Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally mov... - Mark Isaacs, 22 Jan 09:56AM
         Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally mov... - Mark Isaacs, 22 Jan 09:52AM
             Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally mov... - Jody Hughes, 22 Jan 10:21AM
                 Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally mov... - Mark Isaacs, 22 Jan 07:12PM

Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally move position in PDF output
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 22 Jan 01:34AM (edited 22 Jan 08:27AM)
An extremely rare problem I notice is that when there are a group of objects interacting under the influence of Magnetic Layout, in PDF output the position of one object changes in a very noticeable and less than ideal way. I think the position it shows up in the PDF is the "grey shadow" position shown in Sibelius.

As I use Sibelius 6.2 I don't have the native Sibelius PDF creator, but the problem, when present, will manifest on a variety of Print-to-PDF options.

I don't have an example but the fix is always the same: use "Freeze Magnetic Layout Position" on the offending object and the PDF will be faithful to the Sibelius view. Does this provide any clue as to what is causing the rare issue? Anyone noticed this kind of artefact themselves?

To be 100% safe, this would mean I'd need to proofread every PDF itself to see if the glitch manifests anywhere. Or, it occurred to me that as a failsafe before printing my PDFs I could Select All and freeze the Magnetic Layout positions globally. Would there be any downsides with this workflow?

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.
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Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally move position in PDF output
Posted by Andy G - 22 Jan 09:36AM
Does it depend on the print to PDF app, perhaps? I've been using Cute PDF for years with both Sib 6 and 7, and it's never done this to any of my scores, however complex.

I can't see any downsides if that process works, other than having to unfreeze the positions if you subsequently need to re-edit something.


--
PC and Laptop: Windows 7. 8GB RAM. Sib 6.2 and 7.13
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Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally move position in PDF output
Posted by Robin Walker - 22 Jan 09:50AM
Mark, are you able to attach a Sibelius .sib score file which exhibits this issue when printed to PDF?

--
Sibelius 2020.9/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2020.1, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.
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Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally move position in PDF output
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 22 Jan 09:56AM
> Mark, are you able to attach a Sibelius .sib score file which exhibits this issue when printed to PDF?

Thanks Robin, the last time it occurred I fixed it with a ML freeze and now can't reproduce it as I can't remember which object it was. I now recall I posted about this in 2012 with a screenshot, and it was you who advised me to freeze ML. See http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=572304&groupid=3&&guest=1

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.
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Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally move position in PDF output
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 22 Jan 09:52AM
Thanks Andy. I tried different print to PDF apps and, if it was doing it, it did it with all. It's very rare and easy to overlook unless you check your PDFs thoroughly

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.
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Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally move position in PDF output
Posted by Jody Hughes - 22 Jan 10:21AM
Hi Mark

I'm not going to be of much help.

I remember seeing this problem occasionally when using Sibelius 6. Freezing the position of the relevant object(s) fixed it. I did in some circumstances freeze magnetic layout positions globally, although it was not my normal way of working.

There are some downsides to doing that. If you rely on Sibelius's ability to automatically split a hairpin with a 'staging-post' dynamic, freezing changed the hairpin to being drawn right through the dynamic object. (This is fixable by erasing the background of the dynamic text object, and maybe setting the layer order correctly, if that's a Sib 6 thing.)

There are (still) some related problems with Magnetic Layout if you freeze everything late in the process: if ML has to move the start of a hairpin a long way, the 'official' start of the hairpin isn't at the point at which it starts visually. See picture, in which top line has ML on, and bottom line the dynamics are frozen. This one shows within Sibelius, so it's easier to catch, but still, it needs to be seen to be corrected.

I don't think the problem you are asking about still happens in the current version of the software, but I can't swear to that – I haven't read that this was fixed, I just haven't come across it for a few years. (I stopped using Sibelius 6 finally around 2018, when a publisher I do a lot of work for finally decided that the new version was acceptably stable and unbuggy.)

Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
Sibelius Ultimate on a Mac running OS 10.13.6
Attachment Screen Shot 2021-01-22 at 10.10.05.png (27K)
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Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally move position in PDF output
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 22 Jan 07:12PM (edited 22 Jan 10:40PM)
You're always a great deal of help, Jeremy! I'm glad someone else has picked up this issue, and thank you for explaining the ins and outs of freezing ML globally as a preventative.

It is indeed an extremely occasional problem. Proofreading at the PDF stage may be the solution.

If I notice it again, I'll post the Sibelius file here, as Robin is interested and may be able to work out the rhyme and reason of what causes it.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.
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Messages in this thread

Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally move po... - Mark Isaacs, 22 Jan 01:34AM
     Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally mov... - Andy G, 22 Jan 09:36AM
         Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally mov... - Robin Walker, 22 Jan 09:50AM
             Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally mov... - Mark Isaacs, 22 Jan 09:56AM
         Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally mov... - Mark Isaacs, 22 Jan 09:52AM
             Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally mov... - Jody Hughes, 22 Jan 10:21AM
                 Re: Sib. 6.2: Objects can very occasionally mov... - Mark Isaacs, 22 Jan 07:12PM