Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Maestwrong - 11 Oct 11:12AM Hide picture I guess this topic is already mentioned in the past threads...but I'm not good at searching them. Sorry. I would like to make 2 separated part scores (ex.Horn1 and Horn2) from 2 voices on 1 staff (Horn in F). 2 voices are exported to 1 part score... I want to export Voice1 to Horn1 part score, and Voice2 to Horn2 part score. How and from where can I export them? Attachment DSC_0579.JPG.jpg (902K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Robin Walker - 11 Oct 12:11PM Hide picture Configure the score file with THREE Horn staves. - Horns 1 & 2, as you currently have, for use in the Full Score; - Horns 1, for use in making the Dynamic Part for Horns 1; - Horns 2, for use in making the Dynamic Part for Horns 2. Copy Voice 1 from Horns 1&2 to Horns 1; Copy Voice 2 from Horns 1&2 to voice 1 in Horns 2. Hide "Horns 1" and "Horns 2" from the Full Score. Delete the Dynamic Part for "Horns 1&2". Note that subsequent changes in "Horns 1&2" will not be automatically reflected in "Horns 1" or "Horns 2", and you must exercise care to keep all three in synchrony. -- Sibelius 2020.9/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2020.1, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book. Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Maestwrong - 11 Oct 12:34PM Hide picture Robin, thank you very much for your very kind reply!! Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Maestwrong - 11 Oct 02:33PM Hide picture Sibelius cannot export 2 each voice on 1 staff to 2 different part scores automatically, right? So complicated process... disappointed... Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Laurence Payne - 11 Oct 03:58PM Hide picture If you have been meticulous about using different Voices for the two players on a combined stave, the process can be at least partially automatic. You might also consider working from the other direction. Compose using separate staves for each player and then combine them to one stave for the conductor's score. I believe Dorico has recently announced improvements in dealing with this process. The Sibelius developers will doubtless be hard on their heels! Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Maestwrong - 11 Oct 04:10PM Hide picture Laurence, thank you very much for your suggestion! I have just tried the same way as your suggestion. Now I am making a conductor's score with 2 staves for each instrument. I will combine each 2 staves at the end of the arrangement. I also appreciate your information about Dorico! Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by David - 11 Oct 04:43PM Hide picture There are a few tools to be familiar with, mainly Filters, Reduce and Explode. No matter how one writes, they can probably get good use out of all 3 at some point. I haven't seen the Dorico condensing feature but I'm guessing it works like a "smart reduce" or the opposite if needed. As for Sibelius, look at the attachment. I wrote the 1 and 2 parts, selected them, hit "reduce" and assigned it to the Flutes 1 and 2. Simple... but it takes some experience as this example is easy. Dynamics, rests etc can make it more complex. But it's not that hard to either combine 2 staves into 1 or the opposite. -- Ultimate, Windows 10 Attachment reduce.jpg (39K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Laurence Payne - 12 Oct 12:48PM Hide picture I know Dorico is proud of recent improvements in this area. Not sure if it's more about splitting, combining or both! I haven't sprung for the latest Dorico update. What with there being no gigs since last March and Dorico not really being an earning tool for me, it's hard to justify the expense. Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Peter Roos - 12 Oct 10:38PM (edited 12 Oct 10:45PM) Hide picture See Robin Walker's post above. If you have the latest version of Sibelius, using the 'focus on staves' function is really nice to hide or show staves. -- Peter Roos www.summeroflovemusic.com IMDb: www.imdb.com/name/nm2039241 Attachments Capture.PNG.png (41K), Example Oct 12, 2020.sib (82K), Capture2.PNG.png (52K), Capture3.PNG.png (30K), Capture4.PNG.png (30K), Capture5.PNG.png (101K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Peter Roos - 12 Oct 11:06PM (edited 12 Oct 11:08PM) Hide picture And this how this works in Dorico. You set up two players, horn 1 and 2, and then you select both of them to be 'condensed'. Then in the score it automatically combines the two horns on one staff. When you print parts, they still are printed as individual parts. -- Peter Roos www.summeroflovemusic.com IMDb: www.imdb.com/name/nm2039241 Attachments Capture5.PNG.png (44K), Capture6.PNG.png (30K), Capture7.PNG.png (27K), Capture8.PNG.png (30K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Rob Tuley - 12 Oct 10:51PM (edited 12 Oct 10:52PM) Hide picture > I believe Dorico has recently announced improvements in dealing with this process. The Sibelius developers will doubtless be hard on their heels! This first appeared in Dorico was more than a year ago, but there have been improvements in every update since then. If there is nothing particularly complicated going on, you just write the two parts on separate staves and Dorico automatically "condenses" them only one staff in the score. You have lots of control over the details, if you need them. As for other software being "hard on their heels", it might be worth considering that Daniel Spreadbury is on the record of saying that this was effectively designed into Dorico right from "day one" of the project back in 2013 (three years before version 1.0 was released.) If the gestation period in Dorico was about 6 years, make your own decision whether to hold your breath for a competing version. -- Rob Sib 4.1, Windows 10. Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Mark Isaacs - 12 Oct 11:50PM (edited 13 Oct 02:56AM) Hide picture I want an automatic DEcondense feature from either Dorico or Sibelius (i.e. decondensing shared staves to individual parts). We were waiting for that for years, and I thought Dorico's long-standing promise in this area would be fulfilled by delivering just that. I've scored directly onto shared staves for half a century. Yes, I was extremely disappointed in Dorico's solution of forcing one to write onto individual instrument staves at the very beginning of the workflow and then handing it over to the program to condense. For a start I don't want to see so many staves while I work! That's not what scores look like. That's not what I see in my brain when I "think orchestration". Scores just don't look like that, as I say, with a stave for every individual wind or brass player. Remember WYSIWYG ("What You See Is What You Get") which is decades old now? I want to work on incremental versions of the finished document directly, and see it directly as I work on it. I'm talking about the score as it will look to the end-user. That's how the transition from pen-and-paper to mature Word Processor worked. It was the same workflow plus extra facilities to edit. We weren't asked to input the paragraphs in a different order and then have the program "compile" them for us! If either Sibelius or Dorico bring in "DEcondense" I'll upgrade to the latest version of Sibelius from Sibelius 6, or crossgrade to Dorico as the case may be. In the meantime, working sensibly and directly on the condensed score initially, and later "decondensing" individual player hidden staves for parts as per the current Sibelius workflow is, for me, the lesser of the two evils compared with Dorico mandating an inversion of my workflow so onerously. -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.1, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Peter Roos - 13 Oct 02:32AM Hide picture @Mark: My opinion is that neither Sibelius nor Dorico have that "magic bullet" that all of a sudden makes your life so much easier. Despite all the love heaped on Dorico in recent years (all of it well deserved) Sibelius still is a terrific program which is far from dead. You just use the program and the version that works best for you, depending on your individual needs and your workflow. WYSISYG still works for Sibelius, as well as Dorico. I click on a note and I hear a sound which reflects what I expect to hear. I press the space bar and all the instruments play back together, today with more realistic playback than ever, thanks to Arne Wallander. -- Peter Roos www.summeroflovemusic.com IMDb: www.imdb.com/name/nm2039241 Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Mark Isaacs - 13 Oct 02:50AM (edited 13 Oct 04:41AM) Hide picture Yes, of course WYSIWYG still works generally in both Dorico and Sibelius. I was just making the point that Dorico's "Condense" feature comes at the expense of effectively defeating WYSIWYG in that particular score input modality, whereas a putative "Decondense" feature would not. -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.1, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by David - 13 Oct 03:58AM Hide picture > > Despite all the love heaped on Dorico in recent years (all of it well deserved) Sibelius still is a terrific program which is far from dead. > The past few years for Sibelius have been impressive and encouraging, from the multi-edit stuff of 2018 to re-writing so much code, to the Auto-optimize and Focus on Staves from the past year. It really shows that the current team has a firm grasp on the program, which must be very difficult. -- Ultimate, Windows 10 Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Peter Roos - 13 Oct 04:40AM Hide picture > The past few years for Sibelius have been impressive and encouraging, from the multi-edit stuff of 2018 to re-writing so much code, to the Auto-optimize and Focus on Staves from the past year. It really shows that the current team has a firm grasp on the program, which must be very difficult. > > > > -- > Ultimate, Windows 10 I fully agree. Kudos to Sam Butler and the team. -- Peter Roos www.summeroflovemusic.com IMDb: www.imdb.com/name/nm2039241 Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Pierre - 13 Oct 05:20AM Hide picture from Mark >For a start I don't want to see so many staves while I work! That's not what scores look like. >That's not what I see in my brain when I "think orchestration". Scores just don't look like >that, as I say, with a stave for every individual wind or brass player. +1 on that from Cygnus > Despite all the love heaped on Dorico in recent years (all of it well deserved) Sibelius still is a terrific program which is far from dead. > +1 on that too. Using any software is a subjective matter. Not so long ago, I came to Sibelius from another notation software that I had used for some 30 years. The new version of that software is becoming more of a DAW than a notation software. That made me switch and I surely don't regret it. Yes, there's a learning curve to Sibelius, but once you get over it, the possibilities are huge. After a short period of time, I was able to mold Sibelius in order to fit my own workflow and that's important. Plus, it can tackle any type of music writing efficiently. Other close competitors just don't appeal to my personal logic of workflow. -- Best of all Pierre Mac Catalina 10.15.7 Sibelius Ultimate 2020.9 Note Performer 3.3 www.pierrejulien.net Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Adrian Drover - 13 Oct 07:43AM Hide picture If the score has horns 1 & 2 on a single staff, is it not just a matter of making a second dynamic part, hiding voice 2 on the first part and voice 1 on the 2nd part, relabelling each part respectively? When the parts are in unison in the score, add a unison interval to the passage, select the bottom note, make it voice 2 and 'show in part'. This method saves the score from being bulky (as in Robin's solution above) and allows editing to be automatically transferred to the dynamic part. Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Mark Isaacs - 13 Oct 08:17AM (edited 13 Oct 08:29AM) Hide picture That kind of method could work, Adrian. Except in the general case when it's homophonic music that is in rhythmic-unison and written on a shared stem in the score (as is best practice), you'd be attempting to filter and hide top or bottom note in chord in each part, but that hides the whole chord by default. That's the pitfall. But if the OP is strict about the two horns being in separate voices in the score, even when playing the same rhythms, then your method should work. -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.1, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by İlkay Bora Öder - 13 Oct 08:59AM (edited 13 Oct 09:01AM) Hide picture from Mark >For a start I don't want to see so many staves while I work! That's not what scores look like. >That's not what I see in my brain when I "think orchestration". Scores just don't look like >that, as I say, with a stave for every individual wind or brass player. +1 for Mark Yes, I'm agree with you. I also prefer and compose for already condensed parts then I decondense everything in a second process. But I think (I hope) Sam and his team is coming with something like that on the newly introduced Focus on Staves and they will evolve it to the Decondense parts future. Because as much as we want and know also they are awere of the importance of such a feature is well needed. And if that happens it makes easier! A lot easier the parts preparation process. -- Ilkay Bora Oder Composer - Orchestrator - Copyist and Music Preparation https://www.ilkayboraoder.com https://davinci-edition.com/composer/ilkay-bora-oder/ Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Mark Isaacs - 13 Oct 10:37AM (edited 13 Oct 10:38AM) Hide picture >>When the parts are in unison in the score, add a unison interval to the passage, select the bottom note, make it voice 2 and 'show in part'">> Since Adrian's method requires working on unison passages separately, I'd just exclude those passages from the hide/voice in part operation entirely. The material will thus stand in both parts as it should. There will probably be an 'a2' transferred from the score, which can be hidden in the parts. For solos, if the correct voice is used in the score, the hide in parts will cover it; similarly hiding the score's '1.' or '2.' markings in the parts. If Voice 1 is used for Player 2 solos then it's simple to do a spot hide in part in the Player 1 part. I'd love to use your method but for the homophonic shared-stem issue, Adrian. But it's really best practice to do shared-stem wherever possible, and it saves a lot of vertical space in the score. -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.1, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Adrian Drover - 13 Oct 03:38PM (edited 13 Oct 04:42PM) Hide picture So in practice, Mark, there would be shared stems for homophony, split voicing for contra-rhythmic parts, single notes for unisons and one part resting for solos. I'm pretty sure this would be quite a huge task, if at all possible, for the programmers. Attached example (v6) for DIY. There is one drawback. If one part is solo, the other part can't show multirest. Attachment horns.sib (105K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Peter Roos - 13 Oct 06:31PM Hide picture Here is how Dorico handles condensing (introduced in version 3): https://youtu.be/H2-1JTfRLrc Pretty clever isn't it. In recent updates several improvements were added: https://youtu.be/9s0Tj7kRxRQ (3.1) https://youtu.be/FDa3FCHKFF8 (3.5) -- Peter Roos www.summeroflovemusic.com IMDb: www.imdb.com/name/nm2039241 Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by David - 13 Oct 07:25PM Hide picture Very nice, impressive. Sibelius can do some of this already. Granted, it's not all in one place, in one package etc and not as sophisticated yet. But.... for video 2, when 2 bassoons are in different voices: In Sibelius, simply select the measure and press 1 on the keypad, and they will share the same stem/voice. I'm not trying to compare the two programs. I'm saying that a lot of the basics are already in place with reduce/explode/filters etc. Hopefully by connecting the dots, Sibelius can do something similar in the future. Dorico clearly has a "smart reduce" going on. Sibelius has a tiny bit of it- if two unison passages from oboe 1 and 2 are reduced to one staff it will say 'a2'. Not taking anything away from Dorico, it looks like a great and advanced feature. -- Ultimate, Windows 10 Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Mark Isaacs - 13 Oct 08:01PM (edited 13 Oct 09:45PM) Hide picture Thanks, Adrian, I had a look at that. I'd also hide the Voice 1 bar rest in the Horn 2 part when it's the Horn 2 solo, which flips the stems correctly too. And I'd hide "a2 unis" and "2." in the parts as it's not traditional practice to tell the players these kind of things, only for the conductor. But you don't have shared stems in the score for the rhythmic homophony which is the major drawback with this I think: there's no way to do that and use this system. And the other drawback, as you point out, is the serious one that you won't get a multirest in the other part while one player is solo. -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.1, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Adrian Drover - 14 Oct 07:09AM Hide picture In measures 1 & 2 of my posted score, Mark, you can flip voice 2 so that both voices are tails up. Unfortunately, you have to adjust the beams on voice 2 to rest exactly on top of those in voice 1. This is fiddly. In measures 7 & 8, the voice 1 rests can be hidden in the score, or the 2nd horn notes can be shown in the first part as a cue. That would negate the need to have a multirest. I'm afraid the whole operation is quite time consuming, especially if stem sharing is vital for the score. Edited v6 score attached. Attachment horns.sib (89K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Making 2 part scores from 2 voices on 1 staff Posted by Mark Isaacs - 14 Oct 10:31AM (edited 14 Oct 08:25PM) Hide picture Thanks Adrian. It was a good suggestion you originally made, but we have exposed some of the pitfalls in the larger case. -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.1, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads