RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 27 Oct 09:25PM Hide picture Hi folks, I have been looking into the different abbreviations arrangers use in their scores for each instrument member. Personally I tend to favour those of a 3 letter length (eg. Tpt., Gtr., Tbn., and Pno.). My question is, though, what do members prefer to write for Flugel Horn, please? I have seen a variety of shortenings in my time including: Flg., Fl. Hn., and Flg. Hn. I think I prefer the latter but any outside opinions would be appreciated. Just to be ultra clear, the notation is to be used within a 'Jazz' context where the Trumpeter (or Lead Trumpet player) is 'doubling' on Flugel. Many thanks in advance for any kind assistance offered here. Best, Paul David Seaman (UK) Cubase 9 / Sibelius 8.6 (2018.1) Dell Inspiron 3737, Windows 10, 16GB RAM, 1.70gHz, 64-bit, Intel Core i3. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Adrian Drover - 28 Oct 06:45AM Hide picture Not Fl., because it could be flute, tho' not likely on the trumpet part unless it's marking a flute cue. Flg. or Flug or Flüg. should be perfectly understandable to the trumpeter. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mike Lyons - 28 Oct 10:40AM Hide picture Definitely Flug or Flüg -- Win 10 Pro x64, Sib Ultimate 2019.7(build 1580) 2.6GHz Intel Core i7 9750H, 32GB,10TB (SSD + 7200rpm HDD), Scarlett 2i4, Sib 6.2,7.5, NotePerformer and others. Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 28 Oct 01:09PM Hide picture > Definitely Flug or Flüg Cheers Mike, I'll go with the former rather than with the umlaut. Paul Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 28 Oct 01:08PM Hide picture > Not Fl., because it could be flute, tho' not likely on the trumpet part unless it's marking a flute cue. Flg. or Flug or Flüg. should be perfectly understandable to the trumpeter. Thanks Adrian, Yes, it could be a cue for 'Flute'! Paul Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 28 Oct 01:29PM Hide picture Please see screen-grab: Cheers. Attachment Flug.png (170K) Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mike Lyons - 28 Oct 01:51PM Hide picture Flute is just Fl. -- Win 10 Pro x64, Sib Ultimate 2019.7(build 1580) 2.6GHz Intel Core i7 9750H, 32GB,10TB (SSD + 7200rpm HDD), Scarlett 2i4, Sib 6.2,7.5, NotePerformer and others. Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Adrian Drover - 28 Oct 05:28PM Hide picture I would go for Flt, so it doesn't get mistaken for Flg. or Fdl. (fiddle?). ;-) Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 28 Oct 07:53PM Hide picture > I would go for Flt, so it doesn't get mistaken for Flg. or Fdl. (fiddle?). ;-) As I say, I tend to go for 3 letter abbreviations and so 'Flt.' is, in my case, more fitting. For the likes of Bass Clarinet I use 'Bs. Cl.' Do you guys always use a 'period' to emphasise it's an abbreviation, please? (ie. so you would never write: Gtr / Pno). Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 28 Oct 05:52PM Hide picture > Flute is just Fl. Yes, absolutely. But I just wanted to make it ultra-clear to any jazz guitarists and drummers who may not be 100% up-to-speed with such ('classical') abbreviations. Obviously all of the horn players will know for sure. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Chris Crawley - 28 Oct 08:07PM Hide picture "But I just wanted to make it ultra-clear to any jazz guitarists and drummers who may not be 100% up-to-speed with such ('classical') abbreviations. Obviously all of the horn players will know for sure." Horn players? -- Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico 2.2.10.1256, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 3.2, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100 cjcrawley@hotmail.com Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mike Lyons - 28 Oct 10:42PM Hide picture -- Win 10 Pro x64, Sib Ultimate 2019.7(build 1580) 2.6GHz Intel Core i7 9750H, 32GB,10TB (SSD + 7200rpm HDD), Scarlett 2i4, Sib 6.2,7.5, NotePerformer and others. Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk Attachment facepalm4.jpg (5K) Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Rob Tuley - 29 Oct 10:50AM (edited 29 Oct 10:51AM) Hide picture > I just wanted to make it ultra-clear to any ... drummers Remind me, is "Cb" contrabass or cowbell? ;) -- Rob Sib 4.1, Windows 10. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Adrian Drover - 29 Oct 01:30PM Hide picture Remind me, is "Cb" contrabass or cowbell? ==================================== Chip butty. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 29 Oct 01:45PM Hide picture > Flute is just Fl. Mike, Fully amended in all arrangements now! Paul Attachment abb.png (100K) Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 17 Jan 08:31PM (edited 17 Jan 08:32PM) Hide picture Hi, I would like to notify players of when to play backing-figures (behind a soloist), and also (out of courtesy) where backing-figures occur in the arrangement (eg. to the drummer and bassist). I am not sure of the correct abbreviation/grammar, please? My question is specifically in relation to the term 'figures': 'Backing figs. 2nd X only' 'Backing fig's 2nd X only' 'Backing fig's. 2nd X only' I think is must be one of the first two, unless there exists an entirely different form of abbreviation? Many thanks, Paul Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mark Isaacs - 17 Jan 11:18PM (edited 18 Jan 03:12AM) Hide picture "Backing fig's" looks like a misuse of a possessive apostrophe (what exactly belongs to that "fig"?) but the apostrophe could of course signify missing letters. In which case it might be best. But being a "fig" it does remind me of the classic "greengrocer" misuse of the possessive apostrophe" "Fig's $3 a punnet" "Backing figs" looks bad. "Figs" are a fruit as we are saying! Did you consider not abbreviating? "figures" is not a very long word! Another possibility of my own invention (where the full stop signifies the abbreviation): "Backing fig./s" I doubt there is any set convention here. The world of band charts is not that codified compared to classical music publishing. It needs its own Elaine Gould. Maybe Adrian Drover is the man for the job! I'm sure he's seen (and created ) more charts than I've had had breakfasts hot or cold! Just out of interest, I wrote a lot of big band charts in my teens. I haven't followed up on it, though may do so one day. But I always hated writing backing figures, because they had to be these very generic things by virtue of the fact that they needed to fit behind whatever an improvising soloist was doing, which can't be known in advance of course. I'm sure your backing figures are great: for me writing these generic stabs is something I find life too short for. The composer in me goes "I don't want to write accompaniments in a vacuum in which I don't know how the melody is going: that's anathema". Don't be put off, Paul. I'm just sharing. Re 'Backing fig's 2nd X only' 'Backing fig's. 2nd X only' you are simply concerned whether to demarcate with a full stop in the middle. To split hairs more, if there was a demarcation, it might better be a colon. So here's my favoured suggestion: 'Backing fig./s: 2nd X only' I do think this is a very personal choice amongst several legitimate possibilities, and not really a case of right or wrong, since there is no set convention that has delineated the options. Only offering for what it's worth! -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Adrian Drover - 18 Jan 08:53AM Hide picture I write "Play 2°x" or "Tacet 1°x" or "2°x only". Short & sweet, tho' "x" wasn't understood by a band I was writing for in Finland. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Jan 06:34PM Hide picture > I write "Play 2°x" or "Tacet 1°x" or "2°x only". Short & sweet, tho' "x" wasn't understood by a band I was writing for in Finland. Hi Adrian, I have never seen that before but it does make perfect sense to my eyes. I use a capital 'X' compared to your lower-case. Did you create the small 'circle' by using the 'open' hi-hat symbol? Paul Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Jan 06:41PM Hide picture > "Backing fig's" looks like a misuse of a possessive apostrophe (what exactly belongs to that "fig"?) but the apostrophe could of course signify missing letters. In which case it might be best. But being a "fig" it does remind me of the classic "greengrocer" misuse of the possessive apostrophe" "Fig's $3 a punnet" > > "Backing figs" looks bad. "Figs" are a fruit as we are saying! > > Did you consider not abbreviating? "figures" is not a very long word! Thanks a lot Mark, Yes, the apostrophe between the latter 2 letters signifies 'ownership'. But I thought I would just throw it into the mix to show that I had considered a range of alternatives. I feel that "figures" does need to be abbreviated; for my charts at least (eg. 'play backing figures 1st & 2nd X only' is quite lengthy). Paul Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Jan 06:48PM Hide picture > I doubt there is any set convention here. The world of band charts is not that codified compared to classical music publishing. It needs its own Elaine Gould. Maybe Adrian Drover is the man for the job! I'm sure he's seen (and created ) more charts than I've had had breakfasts hot or cold! Mark, Everything on the E.G. book is very prescribed, and of course that is a good thing - esp. for newbies. For what it's worth I have always said this (since I started making some serious transcriptions/arrangements within the last decade): you could ask 10 jazz arrangers to transcribe/arrange the same piece of music as per recording, and they would all come up with something totally different in terms of instructions, terminology and geography - even though their sources were exactly the same! Cheers. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Jan 06:57PM (edited 18 Jan 07:03PM) Hide picture > 'Backing fig's 2nd X only' > > 'Backing fig's. 2nd X only' > > you are simply concerned whether to demarcate with a full stop in the middle. To split hairs more, if there was a demarcation, it might better be a colon. > > So here's my favoured suggestion: > > 'Backing fig./s: 2nd X only' > > I do think this is a very personal choice amongst several legitimate possibilities, and not really a case of right or wrong, since there is no set convention that has delineated the options. Only offering for what it's worth! Mark, Much appreciated. Yourself, and others, may (and probably WILL!) disagree/dislike my decision, but having experiment for a while I actually like (even though it breaks the rules of making grammatical sense): 'Play backing figs. 2nd X only' As you can see I have omitted the (dodgy car mechanic!) comma. The period (after the 's') does not look too incorrect and I don't think many musicians would kick up that much of a fuss over it (except for Mr Lyons probably!). Your f/b would be appreciated as always... Attachment Figs.png (154K) Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mark Isaacs - 18 Jan 08:31PM Hide picture Your final version looks aesthetically fine to me, and there is no doubt about what you are trying to communicate -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Jan 08:45PM (edited 18 Jan 08:46PM) Hide picture > Your final version looks aesthetically fine to me, and there is no doubt about what you are trying to communicate Many thanks Mark for the clarification. I really respect your professional opinion here. These matters are of great importance to me. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Adrian Drover - 18 Jan 11:19PM Hide picture Thus sprach Paul: For what it's worth I have always said this (since I started making some serious transcriptions/arrangements within the last decade): you could ask 10 jazz arrangers to transcribe/arrange the same piece of music as per recording, and they would all come up with something totally different in terms of instructions, terminology and geography - even though their sources were exactly the same! ======================================= True, Paul. In my case, there are instances where I feel I can make improvements to the original orchestration. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Adrian Drover - 18 Jan 11:23PM Hide picture Did you create the small 'circle' by using the 'open' hi-hat symbol? ========================================= Nope, Paul. Typing alt/0176 produces "°" on my keypad. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Jan 06:32PM (edited 19 Jan 06:48PM) Hide picture > True, Paul. In my case, there are instances where I feel I can make improvements to the original orchestration. Adrian, Transcriptions and arrangements, which are supposed to be as per record, are often littered with mistakes! Take 'London Orchestrations' and 'Pop Plan' for two. Thanks. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Jan 06:45PM Hide picture > Just out of interest, I wrote a lot of big band charts in my teens. I haven't followed up on it, though may do so one day. But I always hated writing backing figures, because they had to be these very generic things by virtue of the fact that they needed to fit behind whatever an improvising soloist was doing, which can't be known in advance of course. I'm sure your backing figures are great: for me writing these generic stabs is something I find life too short for. The composer in me goes "I don't want to write accompaniments in a vacuum in which I don't know how the melody is going: that's anathema". Don't be put off, Paul. I'm just sharing. Hi Mark, That is a very interesting point, thanks. I don't posses your wealth of knowledge and experience, compositionally. I see writing backing figs. as another part of the 'compositional' process; as important as the harmony and melody parts. So I spend as long, if not longer!, on these components. Ditto for 'interludes'. In fact I definitely spend longer on these passages. I try and write something which is derivative of the melody and which (hopefully) will provide material for the soloist to bounce off, inspirationally - otherwise it's pointless writing anything! Paul Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Jan 06:51PM Hide picture I like the idea that your backing figs derive from the melody. This would elevate them compositionally. -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Jan 07:23PM Hide picture > I like the idea that your backing figs derive from the melody. This would elevate them compositionally. The reason I do so is because I feel it helps to 'unify' the piece. Cheers. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Jan 07:36PM Hide picture >> The reason I do so is because I feel it helps to 'unify' the piece Yes, motivic consistency. -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Adrian Drover - 20 Jan 07:12AM (edited 20 Jan 07:33AM) Hide picture Better not to over-complicate backing figures behind an improvized jazz solo else the backing becomes more prominent than the solo. Long notes (unison guide tones or harmony), repeated stabs or riffs are common. For a long solo, let the backing start from nothing, gradually building in intensity & excitement, climaxing at the finish, thereby spurring the soloist to follow suit. PS. One thing that bores me to tears, both as a listener or as a player, is having endless back to back solos. Better to write a short band interlude between solos with contrasting orchestration behind each solo. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mark Isaacs - 20 Jan 07:27AM (edited 20 Jan 11:30PM) Hide picture >> For a long solo, let the backing start from nothing, gradually building in intensity & excitement, climaxing at the finish, thereby spurring the soloist to follow suit. That's part of my little good-natured polemic. This would restrict the soloist. What if they don't want to end their solo with a rousing climax? Some of the best solos wind down. The fundamental thorn in the side here is the always-paradoxical attempt to mix improvised and composed elements, and the restrictions that places on both composer/arranger and improviser. One of the most challenging commissions I ever had was to write a suite for a jazz piano trio (led by me) and a group of classical chamber musicians. The whole challenge as I saw it was how not to have the classical players play "backing figures" for the band. -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Adrian Drover - 20 Jan 07:52AM Hide picture Yes, Mark, every composition needs its own style of orchestration and mood. I hate formulas. Some of my favourite listening is the Miles Davis & Gil Evans collaborations. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mark Isaacs - 20 Jan 08:09AM (edited 20 Jan 08:11AM) Hide picture >> Some of my favourite listening is the Miles Davis & Gil Evans collaborations. Miles Ahead! One of my favourite big band writers was Bill Holman. EDIT: IS (not "was") Bill Holman. He's still alive! Aged 92! -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Jan 11:27PM Hide picture > PS. One thing that bores me to tears, both as a listener or as a player, is having endless back to back solos. Better to write a short band interlude between solos with contrasting orchestration behind each solo. Hi Adrian, This is one of the reasons why my charts are rather long, in terms of pages. There's no way round it really. If you want to include all of the little 'extras' then you have to reside to the fact that your pieces require more 'real estate', compared to a typical Real Book lead-sheet. Paul Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Jan 11:29PM (edited 21 Jan 01:09AM) Hide picture > PS. One thing that bores me to tears, both as a listener or as a player, is having endless back to back solos. Better to write a short band interlude between solos with contrasting orchestration behind each solo. Hi Adrian, This is one of the reasons why my charts are rather long, in terms of pages. There's no way round it really. If you want to include all of the little 'extras' then you have to reside to the fact that your pieces require significantly more 'real estate', compared to (say) a typical Real Book lead-sheet. Sometimes I do kinda wish I didn't possess the over-creative imagination of which I seem to have been cursed with! Paul Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 23 Jan 11:27PM Hide picture > >> The reason I do so is because I feel it helps to 'unify' the piece > > Yes, motivic consistency. Thank you for my new analytical term-of-the-day ;-) Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 25 Feb 12:29AM Hide picture Hi guys, I have decided to expand the amount of rhythm-section players in my new/first big-band chart. I am, please, looking for the universally preferred abbreviations for the percussion instruments: Conga and Cowbell? As always there seems to be variants: Cn; Con; C.B.; C.bell; etc. This is to be a jazz/fusion piece and so I would am keen to hear what you may think the most appropriate terms might be? Many thanks, Paul Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Adrian Drover - 25 Feb 07:13AM (edited 25 Feb 07:36AM) Hide picture To avoid confusion, write them in full. PS. On second thoughts, is this for staff names or instrument changes? If for separate players, the staves could be labelled "Latin 1" & "Latin 2", then "LA.1" & "LA.2". Is it that important? Just do your own thing. PS2. Most drummers have cowbell as part of their kit. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 25 Feb 07:05PM (edited 25 Feb 07:07PM) Hide picture > To avoid confusion, write them in full. > PS. On second thoughts, is this for staff names or instrument changes? > > If for separate players, the staves could be labelled "Latin 1" & "Latin 2", then "LA.1" & "LA.2". Is it that important? Just do your own thing. > > PS2. Most drummers have cowbell as part of their kit. Hi Adrian, If I recall correctly, by default, Sib. terms 'cowbell' as 'C.B.' which I think could also mean 'contra-bass'? (although I use electric-bass in my unit). On the FULL SCORE, at the very START, I state the full-name of each instrument. Thereafter I resort to abbreviations for the remainder of the piece (I am guessing this is a pretty standard method of labelling?). On the INDIVIDUAL PARTS I state the full-name of the instrument (ie. Trombone). I don't use 'instrument-changes' at present; this is an arranging technique I have not gotten around to experimenting with as yet. Yes, drummers do have a cowbell (but thanks anyway!). In this piece the drummer is playing continuous 16th-notes on the snare and so does not have a free hand! (and I can't assume that the drummer will have a cow-bell-pedal [which I tend to dislike if I am honest because you then lose the beautiful hi-hat!]). I have to admit I do really favour your stylish terms 'Latin 1' and '2', and their abbreviations (thanks again!). I will definitely be incorporating these... Cheers. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 25 Feb 11:13PM Hide picture (screengrab for Adrian.) Attachment Lat1.png (176K) Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 26 Feb 08:05PM (edited 26 Feb 08:06PM) Hide picture btw: for anyone who may be remotely interested!, here is a link to the track ('Freedom Of Assembly') of which I have transcribed and am furiously trying to arrange for big-band using/learning Sib. The bassist is the legendary Will Lee (who was in the amazing house-band of the David Letterman show for many years). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emrO9JIGqME Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 28 Feb 03:47PM (edited 28 Feb 03:59PM) Hide picture Hi guys, I don't think I need to upload a screen-grab for this question but I can do so if you wish? When writing for a small/combo outfit there will be, for the most part, only one of each instrument. Therefore, when providing cues and alike one can simply state: tpt.; w/ tbn; gtr. solo; without fear of misinterpretation. But in a big-band (or similar sized ensemble) there are 4/5 of each blowing instrument! On certain parts I like to add cues to let the player know (say, if he/she has been 'tacet' for some time) 'events' that may be occurring. For instance, in the middle of a 32-bar tacet on the cowbell part I might wish to state (out of courtesy): 'add trumpets', 'trumpets in', or just 'trumpets' - all in parentheses. As I say, it's just so the player has something of an aural-landmark to latch onto (my brain has regularly disengaged while counting-off bars!). In which case, regarding arriving at the most appropriate abbreviation, should one term these as: - saxes in; sax's in; or sax sect. in? - add tpts; add tpt's, or add tpt. sect? - w/ tbns; w/ tbn's; or w/ tbn. sect? As you can see, I am referring to the entire section as a whole (be it brass or reeds). Personally, I think I prefer those not including 'sect.' (section) as it makes the instruction somewhat more wordy. Once again, I very keenly await your expert insights... THANKS! Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mark Isaacs - 28 Feb 10:17PM (edited 29 Feb 06:36AM) Hide picture Some things are not standardised, Paul. For some things there is no tradition. May I respectfully suggest in these cases you just be pragmatic and use logic and commonsense? This latest question veers into absurdity. And if I didn't feel I knew you better, I'd wonder if you were winding us up! I really should be doing other things, but if it helps, this is how I would apply logic and commonsense to a situation like this where there is no tradition, given the alternatives you have chosen to wrestle with: Sax's in This looks initially like bad grammar (greengrocer sign, again! we already discussed this here!) but even if one accepts that this is an apostrophe for abbreviation purposes and thus can be admitted, there's no abbreviation benefit! If you replace one letter by an abbreviation apostrophe, the character count remains the same. Saxes = 5 characters. Sax's = 5 characters. I can't see why you'd even consider "Sax's". If you have a comeback to that e.g. "But an apostrophe takes up less room than a letter!" then go for it, man! Sax sect. in As you already said 'Sax sect." is a more wordy way to express the plural of a single saxophone. So you've already reasoned that one out. I concur. Saxes in Beautiful, concise and elegant. Did you really need to ask? Using "add" or "with" are valid alternatives when coupled with the "saxes"-type formation. You'll just have to decide for yourself! This forum is surely not the place to debate whether a word cue should be "Saxes in" or "Add saxes". This is no longer even about musical notation, let alone the operation of the program Sibelius. This is simply about a very brief, orthographically non-standardised, simple communication to the player using the English language which is to be embedded into a larger musical document. You speak English very well; in this case, just speak it! :) -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.1, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mark Isaacs - 02 Mar 09:26PM Hide picture Well, I spent a fair time on my answer but don't see any response. I hope it was helpful, and that my plain speaking in calling it as I saw it was acceptable. -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.1, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 02 Mar 09:54PM (edited 03 Mar 01:54AM) Hide picture > Well, I spent a fair time on my answer but don't see any response. I hope it was helpful, and that my plain speaking in calling it as I saw it was acceptable. Mark, I did not even realise you had left a response until just now. I have been getting email notifications for my other two recently created threads (3 notifications per single reply actually!) but it seems nothing for this particular dialogue? Plus, I think this conversation may have slipped down the ladder somewhat because it never even caught my eye. Had I have known you had responded then I would of course have thanked you and commented as soon as I could, as I have ALWAYS done! Paul Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 02 Mar 11:40PM (edited 03 Mar 01:57AM) Hide picture Mark, I understand you may have had some doubt over the validity of my question but I can promise you it was most certainly genuine. I would rather risk looking stupid and asking a question (which is holding me back) than not asking it at all, and never progressing. In the pre-internet world I would have had to take a gamble and hope that I had come up with the right answer; but having the luxury of this (much valued) forum I was most interested to gain the insights of fellow members, to which you have kindly replied. For saxophones, "Saxes" is certainly, out of the three options, the easiest on the eye. But I honestly did not know if it was, also, excepted 'internationally'. Adrian commented a couple of times on here that he has stated instructions and them not making any sense to the player (or it may have been the conductor). However, as I say, this was when his work was being performed overseas. Being hyper-pedantic here, "Tpt's", "Tbn's", and "Sax's" (although being grammatically incorrect) did look kinda ok-ish to me because the 'form' of the abbreviation was consistent in all three (ie. 3 letters, apostrophe, letter 's'). And, therefore, using "Saxes" in place of "Sax's" broke this trend - if you get me. Anyway, I won't harp on about it any longer because, as you mention, it does not particularly warrant conversation in this forum with it not being directly related to Sibelius - which is fair enough. Paul Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mark Isaacs - 03 Mar 12:45AM (edited 03 Mar 12:51AM) Hide picture I knew you were genuine as I indicated. I said if I didn't know you better I would have suspected a windup with that level of hair-splitting. We talk about things here that aren't related to Sibelius, in particular, conventions of music notation. My point was it went beyond musical notation to an English language issue, especially in weighing up a communication "Saxes in" against "Add saxes" where it's just your choice, or quibbling about Sax's vs. Saxes. Instrument abbreviations aren't exactly standardised, and if you are going to write general communications in English, then people who don't speak English will just have to get the dictionary out or ask, so don't worry about it. When I practice piano music by French composers I keep a French-English dictionary on the music stand as they write all their instructions in French, and I don't speak it. >>>Being hyper-pedantic here, "Tpt's", "Tbn's", and "Sax's" (although being grammatically incorrect) did look kinda ok-ish to me because the 'form' of the abbreviation was consistent in all three (ie. 3 letters, apostrophe, letter 's').>>> Motto: keep repeating something wrong and it will eventually look right :) ;) -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.1, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 03 Mar 12:59AM (edited 03 Mar 01:00AM) Hide picture Hi Mark, Ok thanks, understood; no problem. I'll reply in full tomorrow... Cheers. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mark Isaacs - 03 Mar 06:49AM (edited 03 Mar 07:04AM) Hide picture > I'll reply in full tomorrow... NOOOOO!!! I think enough said now? :) Too far down the rabbit hole already, surely? -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.1, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 03 Mar 01:09PM Hide picture Mark, Well I dare say you are correct because the conversation has steadily petered down to yourself and I. :-( Back to top | All threads

RE: A Quick Abbreviation Question (help?) Posted by Mark Isaacs - 03 Mar 07:36PM Hide picture Yes ;) -- A composer www.markisaacs.com www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.1, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL. Back to top | All threads