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Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 21 Sep 08:14AM
     Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - Robin Walker, 21 Sep 08:28AM
         Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 21 Sep 08:35AM
             Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 21 Sep 08:51AM
                 Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - Robin Walker, 21 Sep 09:35AM
                     Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 21 Sep 12:39PM
                         Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - Robin Walker, 21 Sep 01:59PM
                             Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 21 Sep 02:55PM
                                 Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - Robin Walker, 21 Sep 04:36PM
                                 Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - Robin Walker, 21 Sep 04:39PM
                                     Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 21 Sep 07:11PM
                                         Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 04 Oct 03:56PM

Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3
Posted by aaronnt1 - 21 Sep 08:14AM (edited 21 Sep 08:15AM)
I am detecting quite substantial input lag when clicking on or inputting a note in my score in Sibelius Ultimate which is not there when using the same score in 7.1.3.

The score uses multiple instances of EastWest PLAY VST's and in 7.1.3 if I click on a note in the score with the cursor it sounds immediately. However, in Sibelius Ultimate, when I click on a note there is noticeable lag maybe half a second. The same goes for inputting notes.

Whats even worse is that if I delete something from the score, say a note in another bar, it then takes around 5 seconds for a sound to play the next time I click on a note! Like the system is taking time to update itself and recalculate the score. This significant lag doesn't happen in 7.1.3

If I open up one of the PLAY VST windows and play the notes via it's on screen virtual keyboard, sounds play immediately. So my RME ASIO soundcard settings are fine. I also checked the multi-threading settings and they are the same as in 7.1.3.

Any ideas why this might be happening and how to stop this input lag?

Thanks.

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Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Sep 08:28AM
What version number of Sibelius Ultimate?
What version of operating system?
How much RAM in the computer?

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Sibelius 2019.7/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2018.7, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.

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Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3
Posted by aaronnt1 - 21 Sep 08:35AM
Hi, latest version of Sibelius, Windows 10, 32GB RAM.

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Sibelius Ultimate | Windows 10 | Intel 8 Core (16 threads) CPU | 32 GB RAM

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Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3
Posted by aaronnt1 - 21 Sep 08:51AM
The half second input lag still happens if I don't load any playback configurations and use the default sounds. However the 5 sencond delay after editing the score (for instance adding articulations or deleting something) doesn't happen. So it seems Ultimate is struggling to update and recalculate scores that use larger playback configurations.

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Sibelius Ultimate | Windows 10 | Intel 8 Core (16 threads) CPU | 32 GB RAM

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Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Sep 09:35AM
Please attach screen-shots of the following dialogue windows in Sibelius Ultimate, with your large score open:
- Playback Devices, showing the playback configuration being used when the lag issues occur;
- Audio Engine Options, as being used when the lag issues occur.

Do not have both Sibelius 7.1.3 and the new Sibelius open at the same time, as two of them might clash over the ASIO device.

--
Sibelius 2019.7/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2018.7, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.

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Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3
Posted by aaronnt1 - 21 Sep 12:39PM
Hi here please see attached. If I delete devices down to about 3 PLAY instances then the 5 second delay disappears (though the half second input lag remains).

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Sibelius Ultimate | Windows 10 | Intel 8 Core (16 threads) CPU | 32 GB RAM
Attachment Score1.jpg (728K)

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Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Sep 01:59PM
Thanks for the screen-shot.

The Mixer shot is tricky to interpret as most of the device names cannot be disambiguated from "Play". It can sometimes help the workflow if (in Playback Devices right-hand column) you rename all the instances of "Play (xx)" to short names (like G1, G2, G3 for the Goliath players), so that all the device names in the Mixer can be disambiguated from each other.

It's unusual to need so many duplicated instances of the same player devices for a score with only 25 instruments, as each player instance could in principle support up to 16 instruments each. The RAM demands for playing this score would, I suspect, be considerably reduced, if you minimised the number of duplicate instances of the same device.

If you allocate the four trumpets each to a different player device, then the trumpet samples will probably get loaded 4 times over, whereas if all 4 trumpets are played by the same device, the samples will be loaded just once.

It would be even better if you could reduce the total number of activated player devices to less then the number of CPU cores (8), then each player would get a core to itself.

It would be helpful if you could diagnose what is happening internally when the 5-second delay occurs. Is the delay CPU-bound or disk-bound? The application Windows "Resource Monitor" is helpful in this respect, as it draws time-based charts of CPU, Disk, Memory, and network utilisation, and a 5-second delay should be clearly visible on one or the other of those charts.

As an experiment, if you temporarily choose Playback Configuration "General MIDI (Basic)", do all the delays go away? If yes, then the issue is localised to the demands of the Playback Configuration.

It is puzzling that the new Sibelius is behaving differently from the old one. Note that the user "Preferences" (Ctrl-comma) are not shared between the two products, so it might be worth checking that relevant preferences are the same in both cases.

--
Sibelius 2019.7/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2018.7, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.

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Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3
Posted by aaronnt1 - 21 Sep 02:55PM
Hi Robin

thanks for the reply. PLAY (in conjunction with Jonathan Loving's soundsets) acts odd sometimes in that even if you are reusing already loaded samples such as these 4 trumpets, unless they are loaded into different instances of PLAY, there will be odd glitches occurring such as if Trumpet 1 is playing a trill but Trumpet 2 is playing staccatos, only one of these articulations will play for either. So it is necessary to have them on different instances rather than just one loaded instrument. But the actual samples only get loaded the once (unless of course they are allocated completely patches).

It will be very hard to not load up more than 8 instances of PLAY for larger orchestral works unfortunately, but I would have hoped that Sibelius in 2019 would be able to take advantage of the hyper threading of today's CPU's, as effectively I'm utilising 16 cores / threads.

I tried monitoring the issue in Windows Task Manager and this is what I noticed. During playback, CPU use stays around 5-10%. However, when I have made an edit and then click on another note so causing the 5 second delay, CPU use jumps up to around 20%! So during that 5 seconds, I suspect Sibelius is doing some recalculating / re calibration of the score. Perhaps it is not utilising all my 16 CPU threads effectively?

And yes, using the General MIDI Playback Config cancels this 5 second delay, however the half second input lag is still there.

Thanks.

--
Sibelius Ultimate | Windows 10 | Intel 8 Core (16 threads) CPU | 32 GB RAM

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Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Sep 04:36PM
> Perhaps it is not utilising all my 16 CPU threads effectively?

Sibelius is a single-threaded application throughout, with the sole exception of running multiple VSTs during playback.

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Sibelius 2019.7/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2018.7, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.

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Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Sep 04:39PM
> PLAY (in conjunction with Jonathan Loving's soundsets) acts odd sometimes in that even if you are reusing already loaded samples
> such as these 4 trumpets, unless they are loaded into different instances of PLAY, there will be odd glitches occurring
> such as if Trumpet 1 is playing a trill but Trumpet 2 is playing staccatos, only one of these articulations will play for either.

This will certainly happen if the trumpets are on the same channel, but should not happen if the trumpets are on different channels in the VST.

--
Sibelius 2019.7/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2018.7, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.

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Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3
Posted by aaronnt1 - 21 Sep 07:11PM (edited 21 Sep 09:50PM)
I got a response from someone else who knows Sibelius inside out and this is what the person said, for anyone else who may find this useful:


"So it is almost as if Sibelius is taking 5 seconds after each edit to recalculate the score or whatever it needs to do to be ready for playback after an edit."


This is exactly what's happening. Any edit that does, or could, result in a change of sound causes Sibelius to undo all of the sound selection and redo it all, for every staff, from the beginning of the score. It's amazingly inefficient but does so because the edit could result in different sounds/before after that point.


The biggest factors are the size of your score (both number of instruments and duration; it will get progressively worse the busier and longer a score gets) and the number of sounds defined in the active sound sets. The number of active plugins doesn't have an impact; any difference removing plugins is due to eliminating sound sets and reducing the number of defined sounds Sibelius is sifting through.


Disabling "Play notes as you edit" will remove this issue; the score will only be processed when playback starts rather than after every edit. It's not ideal, but effective.


Alternatively you can improve this by removing sounds you will never use from the sound sets. Goliath in particular brings thousands of definitions once you count all the drum mappings so this can make a big difference. How useful it is depends on how much you can eliminate, but the potential is there for a significant improvement.



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Sibelius Ultimate | Windows 10 | Intel 8 Core (16 threads) CPU | 32 GB RAM

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Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3
Posted by aaronnt1 - 04 Oct 03:56PM
...so can this please be taken to the developers. It is very frustrating having to wait 5 seconds after each edit before I can click back into my score. Is there not an easier way for the engine to do this, or perhaps use more than one core to do the calculations so that the lag is a lot less?

--
Sibelius Ultimate | Windows 10 | Intel 8 Core (16 threads) CPU | 32 GB RAM

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Messages in this thread

Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 21 Sep 08:14AM
     Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - Robin Walker, 21 Sep 08:28AM
         Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 21 Sep 08:35AM
             Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 21 Sep 08:51AM
                 Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - Robin Walker, 21 Sep 09:35AM
                     Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 21 Sep 12:39PM
                         Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - Robin Walker, 21 Sep 01:59PM
                             Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 21 Sep 02:55PM
                                 Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - Robin Walker, 21 Sep 04:36PM
                                 Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - Robin Walker, 21 Sep 04:39PM
                                     Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 21 Sep 07:11PM
                                         Re: Sibelius Ultimate input lag compared to 7.1.3 - aaronnt1, 04 Oct 03:56PM