Since I didn’t try 2018.11 yet: Can somebody tell me whether the (relatively new?) bug which causes a note reset of the whole score when adding a new instrument has disappeared with the improved note spacing in 2018.11?
in 2018.11, when you add an instrument to a score, the note spacing of the entire score will be reset. I am sure I don’t have to explain further why this cannot be the desired behaviour of the program.
Joachim
Sibelius 2018.7, Sibelius 7.1, MacOS 10.13.6
> What bug is that? Has it been reported?
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> Sibelius 2018.7/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2018.7, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.
Please attach a sample Sibelius .sib score file which behaves correctly for you when adding new instruments in 2018.1 or earlier, and goes wrong for you when adding new instruments in 2018.7. Please guide us on how to spot what has changed.
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Sibelius 2018.7/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2018.7, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.
it is not that complicated, it happens with any score.
Open or create any score, change the spacing of any notes (e.g. move two notes apart), add an instrument and see what happens to the notes you manually spaced.
It is as easy to reproduce as horrible as a bug.
Joachim
> Please attach a sample Sibelius .sib score file which behaves correctly for you when adding new instruments in 2018.1 or earlier, and goes wrong for you when adding new instruments in 2018.7. Please guide us on how to spot what has changed.
>
> --
> Sibelius 2018.7/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2018.7, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.
of course this has not been the case in earlier versions, and I am very sure it is not a new "feature". I don’t have a single score in which I would not work on note spacing. So processing an already existing score is not possible anymore if you have to add a new instrument (e.g. enlarging the arrangement, or simply adding an ossia staff etc.).
I am sure that in earlier versions at the beta testing stage this sort of bug surely would have qualified as a "show stopper".
Joachim
> Yes, Joachim, I can verify that adding an instrument resets note spacing thru'out the score. Has this not always been the case?
It set in about a year ago. Currently, you don't even have to add a new instrument, just add a second line to an instrument already in use, or make an instrument change, say from Flute to Piccolo. Bingo! All your carefully adjusted spacing tweaks are lost for ever.
It has ALWAYS been a bad idea to worry about layout before you've finished writing the music.
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Win 10 Pro x64, Sib Ultimate (build 1918) 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, NotePerformer and others.
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.
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Nonetheless, I agree that this should not happen, and it is likely unintentional. Sometimes you have an existing arrangement finished and then need to change or add instruments. One would not expect this to happen. At least *I* would not.
The curious thing about this is that it's gone nearly two years without anyone complaining about it.
A few possibilities spring to mind:
1. Hardly anyone who cares about note spacing is still using Sibelius anyway.
2. Users have such low expectations of Sibelius they don't expect anything better.
3. Users have such low expectations of Avid fixing bugs that they don't bother to report them.
I have to say this is horrible and one more reason I never use recent versions of Sib. It should never reset spacing unless you ask it to. If someone has gone to the trouble of doing manual spacing to make things look just right, that should not be undone.
Sure, you enter notes first and do layout later. But sometimes you need to make changes after you've done layout. Doing so should not cause disaster.
There are bugs. And then there is destroying a user's work. The latter should never happen.
Are we talking about manually tweaking note spacing in the full score? Doing so affects every staff in the score, but not so the parts. Adding a staff to the score causes a note reset thru'out the score, but any manual adjustments made in the parts are left alone. Making an instrument change in the score also preserves any manually made adjustments to note spacing.
Of course manual spacing affects every note! Global changes of manual spacing are mandatory, for example, when cleaning up clef changes (whether manually or with the aid of Bob Z.'s plug-in), making room between bars for a rehearsal number, interpolating a longer passage of text (e.g. spoken dialogue or stage directions) etc. etc.
In my experience, simply adding a second staff to an extant part triggers off a global spacing reset of its own accord. Adding a new instrument sometimes also causes the parameters "Full names" and "short names" in the layout dialogue to be reset, which leads in turn to a global spacing reset. Some time ago I suggested that "keep absolute" tick-boxes should be added to the Layout dialogue to keep those values constant.
Mike Lyons assertion that "it's a bad idea to worry about layout before you've finished writing the music" may be fine for composers, but for copyists, editors, arrangers etc. this is impractical, particularly if a score is long or complex.
Rob Tuley writes that nobody has complained about this bug in two years. Not quite true, I complained about it some time ago, but nobody followed me up, and my post vanished off the bottom of the list after a few days. This time the thread is much longer, so let's hope the bug will soon be fixed.
I really would like to hear from Avid about this. Can somebody at Avid tell us what the plan is to deal with this (as James said) destroying of user’s work?
In other fields of technology this bug would force the manufacturer to publish immediately a safety note: don’t use our software as long as this known issue has not been fixed.
As a responsible engraver you have to give this safety note to all your customers: stick with (say) Sibelius 7.1 as long as the problem has not been solved.
The sad thing here is that if this was introduced in 8.5.1 then the last “safe” version is 8.0, released I. June 2015. Can I have three and a half years’ worth of subscription back, please?
Judging by your previous email, Leo, I'm guessing that you have had no problem with this in the last three and a half years. It seems that every new Avid update comes with a new breakage. Some users are frustrated (including myself), others don't notice anything different. Depends on how you use the product. I've been frustrated since 7.1.3 (the farewell Daniel version), but haven't noticed this particular bug. I always inspect and format every part last thing before I print. I have had occasion to add optional parts with alternate transpositions & clefs, but I copy their appearance and layout from the original parts.
Even if there are many people that didn’t notice that particular bug that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t have showstopper qualities.
You cannot compare a bug with any other bug.
There are relatively harmless though annoying bugs (like broken tie fields in the inspector) and there are major bugs which can totally destroy your work (like the bug we are talking of in this thread).
I am sure you could easily come up with another bug which should prevent the program to be published, though only a small minority of users would notice that bug.
E.g. if microtones wouldn’t work anymore, or ossia staves would suddenly disappear, etc.
In other words, the severity of a bug doesn’t necessarily correlate with the number of affected users.
I know that professional engravers belong to a small minority of Sibelius users, but don’t forget that the major part of published music in high quality is done by this small minority.
Joachim
Sibelius 7.1, Sibelius 2018.7, MacOS 10.13.6
> Judging by your previous email, Leo, I'm guessing that you have had no problem with this in the last three and a half years. It seems that every new Avid update comes with a new breakage. Some users are frustrated (including myself), others don't notice anything different. Depends on how you use the product. I've been frustrated since 7.1.3 (the farewell Daniel version), but haven't noticed this particular bug. I always inspect and format every part last thing before I print. I have had occasion to add optional parts with alternate transpositions & clefs, but I copy their appearance and layout from the original parts.
I quickly searched the Wikipedia page, Robin, which doesn’t mention any 8.1, 8.2, 8.3 or 8.4. I may very well have had any of those versions but frankly I don’t remember.
If you want honesty, then know this: I fell off my Sibelius subscription when another piece of software came on the scene. I then realised at a later date that my last paid version of Sibelius included a bug that meant that previously hidden rests became unhidden. Work that I’d done in Sibelius needed republishing with tweaks, and I wasn’t going to transfer it all to new software when it looked fine in Sibelius. I then had no choice but to buy back in to Sibelius in order to get that bug fixed, and in the interim I wasted DAYS fixing previously hidden rests. (found a write up of said bug here: https://www.scoringnotes.com/tips/bug-with-rests-in-multiple-voices-in-parts-affects-earlier-files-opened-in-sibelius-8-5/ )
Given I’d fallen off the subscription, I was then treated by Avid as a new user - despite being a Sibelius customer since Sibelius 7 for Acorn. It would have cost me less if I’d been crossgrading from Finale!
Can you see why I’d make a tongue in cheek comment about wanting money back?
I'm still on 8.4.2 - haven't dared to upgrade since there were some other bugs discovered in 8.5.x
I remember I got a Download link to 8.4.2 from Sibelius Support back then.
I frequently adjust parts - basically narrowing all repeats-bars, and some bar-rests. Scores more rarely get that lind of tweaking; however I agree it is something I think they ought to fix.
