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Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Ques... - bbbach, 23 May 04:18AM
     Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Alexander Plötz, 23 May 12:46PM
         Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Alexander Plötz, 23 May 12:57PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - bbbach, 23 May 02:36PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Alexander Plötz, 23 May 03:07PM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - bbbach, 23 May 04:06PM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Alexander Plötz, 23 May 09:28PM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Jesper Elén, 23 May 09:52PM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Wim Hoogewerf, 23 May 10:41PM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - bbbach, 23 May 11:29PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Wim Hoogewerf, 24 May 07:38AM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Alexander Plötz, 24 May 02:35PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - bbbach, 25 May 04:54PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Alexander Plötz, 25 May 06:31PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - bbbach, 25 May 07:43PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Glen Shannon, 27 Feb 04:41AM

Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by bbbach - 23 May 04:18AM
Hello All!

I'm experimenting with the Append Score to combine 50+ files down into just one (maybe 2). This is for a new musical.

A couple things that I'm running into and trying to figure out my way around:
At the beginning of each "new" cue, for each part, I'm hoping to have the instrument name used in that cue listed. I don't mind typing it in again, but this is necessary as I have (for example) 2 Reed players that double on several instruments.

So... Pg. 2, Cue 2, Reed 1 - Clarinet in Bb
Pg. 5, Cue 3, Reed 1 - Clarinet in Eb
Pg. 6, Cue 4, Reed 1 - Clarinet in Bb, Clarinet in Eb
Pg. 8, Cue 5, Reed 1 - Alto Sax
Each of the above Clarinet lines needs to be in the upper left for those pages (along with the title of each cue, etc).

When I add the "Instrument Name in Upper Left" it then shows up on the Full Score (When I manually type these in). Am I missing some obvious step?

I'm also trying to figure out how to get the header to handle slightly more complex information. If, for example:
Pg. 1 looks perfect.
Pg. 2, Cue 2 has the title at the top but I had to hide the "header" which would say "Full Score" or "Reed 1" (the part name) which then hides it on all subsequent pages. Is there any way to control this so it acts more like the "Full Instrument Names on first page" which correctly re-displays all of the instrument names (at least on the full score) for each cue? (Does that make any sense?)

I also noticed that the tidy appended score doesn't put in page breaks for the parts -- but I'm happy manually adding those.

Any other tips out there for the Appended Score newbie?

Thanks!
Brent

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by Alexander Plötz - 23 May 12:46PM (edited 23 May 12:58PM)
Hi Brent,

when you put in your new instrument info or any other regular text object, you can edit them to appear either in the score only, in the part only or in both (this is most often the default). You can do that via the inspector, in the "General" pane.
Also, you can tweak the behavior of text styles regarding their repeat on subsequent pages via "Edit Text Styles", on the last tab there ("Repeat").

Sidenote from the perspective of traditional engraving practices: are you sure that this is not a bit overcomplicated? Provided that the basic rules for stave labelling are employed, a conductor should be able to tell the instrumentation from the indications left of the system bar line and from the indicated instrument changes within the score (this also covers multi-instrument players). Giving a general list at the top of each number does not really improve this system and certainly is no substitute for this methods. And for the single player it should not matter, as they do not rearrange their instruments before every new cue, they just need to know which instruments they need at all and they see from the instrument changes when to take which one.

Alex

___________

Sibelius 7.1.2 ǁ Win7 (32 bit) ǁ www.notenlektorat.de

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by Alexander Plötz - 23 May 12:57PM
Regarding your question for general tips: the main lesson that you should take from this experience is, that the feature to append scores is often heaven-sent and can save lots of time and effort, but that appending still always comes with considerable amounts of editing and clean-up. This is why it is important to carefully plan ahead your score before you start to input your music, or at least as soon as possible. It is a good idea to append many short sections into one larger score. It is an even better idea to do everything in one large score in the first place.

Alex
___________

Sibelius 7.1.2 ǁ Win7 (32 bit) ǁ www.notenlektorat.de

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by bbbach - 23 May 02:36PM
Alex:

I am not concerned with what the conductor sees up in the upper right (Full Score or not). The conductor correctly sees the Full Instrument Name at the beginning of the new cue. I want to use that full instrument name and allow the musician to see this.

I'm also aware that I can show and hide different text within the score, show on parts, etc. However, if I type text in to the Reed 1 part, hide it on the full score, the Brass 1 part also sees the same text (Which then says "Clarinet in Bb"). The problem that I'm running into is that the dynamic text is not quite working for me -- and manually typing it in is also not working. This is all from the Part's perspective.

I simply want the musician to know that for the next cue, they are expected to play "Bass Clarinet and Bb Clarinet" in that order. The one after that would be for Barri Sax. The next one would be back on Bass Clarinet. The musician needs to know what they are playing!

In regards to general practice, I don't see how appended scores or one huge score would solve the problem -- the more I've played with it, the more it seems a limitation of the \$Partname\ -- there is no \$CurrentInstrumentName\ dynamic text part. And the \$PartName\ is Reed 1, but \$InstrumentChanges\ is for the entire appended score (again it makes sense -- just limiting in this situation), not for the current cue. However, if the Full Score correctly shows the full instrument name at the beginning of each instrument staff, I don't understand why I can't get ahold of that information and display it at the top of the individual parts.

Formatting and editing and clean-up exist in small files or a large project. Appending scores has been quite simple as I actually did plan ahead and every single cue had the same template, with chorus hidden if a cue was simply underscoring. That being said, I find it surprising when I get one behavior on the Full Score view ... and another behavior (not making new pages) on parts. That's why I asked if I was missing anything.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by Alexander Plötz - 23 May 03:07PM (edited 23 May 03:22PM)
Ah, I see your problem (I knew I overlooked something). Try the following:

Insert your "Instrument Names" object at the approriate bar (probably at the beginning of a cue), but instead of using wildcards, type in the actual text you want. Repeat this for every instrument that needs it. You end up with quite a few header objects all above each other. Now select them all and hide them (completely). Then set them to "Show in parts" one by one; the important thing is to do that from within the appropriate part. This should get you to the point where the headers are different between different parts. As it is probably necessary to move the headers to select them properly, don't forget to reset their position afterwards.

I hope this solves your problem (I just tried it out and it seemed to work in principle). It is not exactly the way those features are intended, so it is a bit more laborious.

Let me know if you are interested in further discussing the other questions. I still think there are more simple ways to make sure that everyone has all needed information, but maybe I am missing some point.

Alex

PS: a workaround using wildcards is also basically possible (it works with malappropriating the unused fields in the score info), but if you expect many different instrument constellations per cue, it will probably not be of any use.
___________

Sibelius 7.1.2 ǁ Win7 (32 bit) ǁ www.notenlektorat.de

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by bbbach - 23 May 04:06PM
Alex!

That looks like it's working perfectly. Agreed that it's not the most friendly way of handling it but it's working well for me so far.

I'd love to discuss this further -- this is new territory for me. I've read a number of musical theater scores and parts in the past (as a performer) and am going off my memory of those experiences. But as a composer, this is a project that is larger then any I've tackled.

We successfully had our first staged reading of this, however I manually printed each file and each part which turned into a nightmare as last minute changes were made. I am hoping to avoid that for our next go-around with this project later in the summer.

Can I contact you via your website email address that is listed?

Thanks!
Brent

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by Alexander Plötz - 23 May 09:28PM (edited 23 May 09:39PM)
Sure, you can write to that address (or just click on my name above this post). We can also continue here, so others could chime in (unless you think it would be too off topic for a tech support forum, though engraving questions are often discussed here very passionately).

Could you give me some little details about your experience as a musical theatre performer? Which instrument(s) did you play?

Alex
___________

Sibelius 7.1.2 ǁ Win7 (32 bit) ǁ www.notenlektorat.de

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by Jesper Elén - 23 May 09:52PM
Please continue here, interesting discussion.

Jesper

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 23 May 10:41PM
Sorry chiming in late. I've done several multi-mouvement opera and movie productions. IMO the best way is to have ALL instruments used by the same player as Partname at the very beginning and as a permanent header. Next, after appending all scores there should be a consistent guidance for the player when to change instrument.

After appending first thing to do is run the Plug-in 'Tidy Appended Score'. This takes care of all redundant text, like instrument names, 'Full score' 20x over each other. Very important: the Plug-in Removes Instrument Changes BETWEEN the Cues. In this way you can easily achieve what you want.
--
MacOS 10.7.2

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by bbbach - 23 May 11:29PM
Alex...
I've played Piano and Keyboard on several - but have been musical director in various forms and have been involved with the performance side quite a bit, including preparing parts for performers... or at least making sure everyone had the parts they needed.

Any ideas why the individual parts are getting page breaks when the main template does (during the append score process)?

Wilm:
For the Reeds is it better to have it as "Reed 1" or the instrument list as the permanent header?

I have learned to do instrument changes when I have solo singers -- to get their names to display correctly... any other tips like that I should be aware of?

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 24 May 07:38AM
> Wilm:
> For the Reeds is it better to have it as "Reed 1" or the instrument list as the permanent header?

Think of separate, dwarling photocopies. On any sheet you should be able to see clearly the info on the composition and the name of the instrument(s).

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by Alexander Plötz - 24 May 02:35PM (edited 24 May 02:37PM)
Wim pretty much summed up the most important points, but just to elaborate a bit further:

Doubling instruments are listed at the beginning of a part in their entirety, but there is no reason to do that in the order in which they appear in the piece (it will still be "Oboe / English Horn" even when the first entry is with English Horn). Also, even if you list doubling instruments in the header (see below), it would not make much sense to list them in the order of their appearance. Just imagine that you have a piece with just flute doubling piccolo, but that there are frequent instrument changes within a cue. Your header would read something like this: "Cue 12 - Flute, Piccolo, Flute, Piccolo, Flute, Piccolo, Thuringian Nose Flute, Piccolo, Flute".
The full list at the start and, if present, the full listing in the header are primarily good for one thing only: letting the players know which instruments they have to bring / unpack. This sounds trivial, but as you certainly know from your own experience as musical director, a missing instrument can be devastating to the success of a rehearsal.
But when actually playing (or even at the start of a cue) no musician will possibly ever look up to the header or to the list at the begin of the section to know which instrument is to be played next, first of all because they would have to leave the stave for that and they might lose their place.
This is why your goal of having an instrument list at the beginning of each cue strikes me as a bit unusual (and frankly, contraproductive - not to speak of wasting space*). Everything that is necessary to ensure the correct instruments playing is that instrument changes are labelled carefully. If the next cue begins with another instrument, just put in "to Bass Clarinet" after the last phrase of the preceding cue. Then state the new instrument again at its entry. Luckily, these two things are managed pretty much automatically by Sibelius when you put in an instrument change.
If at the beginning of a cue (especially those that follow some dialogue) a doubling part does not have any notes, I highly recommend to aditionally state the next instrument at the beginning of the cue. All these things are easily done with stave text styles instead of system text styles (as are the various headers that you are struggling with).

The so called "running head" (Sibelius' "header after first page") primarily serves two purposes: to match any forlorn pages to the piece and the part they belong to, and to give some basic orientation regarding multi-movement works or theatrical works with many different and often separate sections.
Elaine Gould states that only the principle instrument must be listed (meaning that just "Oboe" would be okay even when it doubles with English Horn). While this is appropriate for most concert music, I agree with Wim that there are circumstances - like a musical with the usual quadrupling (or more) of wind instruments - where it can have its advantage to also list all instruments in the header. It should be noted that this still has to be done reasonably: for example you would probably not do that with a percussion setup even if you go that route with the wind players. But here too only a simple list of all instruments needed for the whole piece (or maybe act) is necessary, there is no real use to have sub-lists for every cue. If the header becomes too long, it might be good to use (unambiguous) abbreviations.

Taking all this into account, your header maybe could look something like this:

Title of the musical - Reed 1: Cl. (Bb), Cl. (Eb), B.Cl., ASax, TSax
Act One, Scene 3, Cue 12


Everything except for the act/scene/cue indication would be easily and almost completely automatically done with wildcards.

One last thought about the concept of "current instrument" that you brought up. As far as the system barline is concerned, there actually is something like a "current instrument", because the system barline stands for one particular moment of time in the piece. But what you want is to have a list of instruments that is referring to a whole passage, which would make things more complicated (if there weren't simpler methods for such problems, see above). By definition, in a section that contains instrument changes, there can be a "current" instrument for a certain moment, but not for the section itself.

Alex

* by the way: do I understand correctly that you plan to have each cue begin on a new page in the parts? That too sounds like a huge waste of space to me, an even bigger one than putting in those subsequent instrument lists. There is no reason why you should go with anything more than a system break (together with the approriate double or final barline), except maybe that this could complicate the header labels for orientation when you have several cues on one page - but there are solutions for this, as shown a few posts above.

___________

Sibelius 7.1.2 ǁ Win7 (32 bit) ǁ www.notenlektorat.de

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by bbbach - 25 May 04:54PM
Thanks Wilm and Alex for great responses. I'm just sitting back down to work on this some more today and will play around with the ideas above.

The musicians I worked with for the first reading requested the instrument names at the top of each cue -- which made sense to me at the time (and was easy enough as each one was a separate file). But that could just be because they had experience with older musicals that were hand-copied... without clear "To Instrument"

I will play around with that idea today and see what I come up with.

Alex -- I love the header idea. I will work on that as well. And in response to your ending note, I'm only making sure that new numbers (normally linked to songs) are on new pages. When looking at other musical scores, I commonly see "9a, 9b, 9c, 10, 11a, 11b" I haven't found a good reference as to why they are done that way -- except that they tend to be grouped around a song or scene (or inserted after the first revision and thus they need an "a". I've decided to treat them that way. However, if they are short and I can fit multiple ones on a page, then I'm doing that. Any thoughts or errors in my logic?

And while I have two knowledgable people answering questions... what are the thoughts on "condensing" the score (hiding staves not used)? As a music director I feel comfortable with having the staves of all instruments used in a particular cue (even if not being used at the top) -- then hiding the staves in subsequent systems until they come in. However, I wrote the music and know when they come in... as a musical director, I'm often only given a vocal/piano (reduction) part to go off of -- so this is slightly different from any experience I've personally had.

Thanks again for such insightful ideas!!
Brent

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by Alexander Plötz - 25 May 06:31PM
Hi Brent,

just a quick response on the fly about score condensing: as long as you are writing mainly for one particular production, you have a nice luxury - you can ask the musicians what they would prefer. So just let your conductor tell you how to go. If you conduct yourself, knock yourself out to do whatever you want, as long as it works for you.
NB: if there is a chance that you will reuse the materials later, with other performers, it is recommended to go the route of standard notation. The thing is, there is no one-size-fits-all approach, it often depends on the music and the likely performance conditions, so these details can only be considered taking the whole score into account.

Alex
___________

Sibelius 7.1.2 ǁ Win7 (32 bit) ǁ www.notenlektorat.de

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by bbbach - 25 May 07:43PM
While I'm thinking and working on the header...
In an appended score, how do you have the header change (like Act I, Scene 1, Cue 3a for 2 pages, then Act I, Scene 1, Cue 3b)?

I thought I had it figured out (added a header on pg. 4 and it added it to all subsequent pages) but when I added a different header on pg. 2, it also showed up on pg. 4.

Thanks!
Brent

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Questions
Posted by Glen Shannon - 27 Feb 04:41AM
Aw, too bad this is where the discussion ended, it's exactly what I'm looking to solve- how to have the page header change...

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Messages in this thread

Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting Ques... - bbbach, 23 May 04:18AM
     Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Alexander Plötz, 23 May 12:46PM
         Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Alexander Plötz, 23 May 12:57PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - bbbach, 23 May 02:36PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Alexander Plötz, 23 May 03:07PM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - bbbach, 23 May 04:06PM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Alexander Plötz, 23 May 09:28PM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Jesper Elén, 23 May 09:52PM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Wim Hoogewerf, 23 May 10:41PM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - bbbach, 23 May 11:29PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Wim Hoogewerf, 24 May 07:38AM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Alexander Plötz, 24 May 02:35PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - bbbach, 25 May 04:54PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Alexander Plötz, 25 May 06:31PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - bbbach, 25 May 07:43PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Appended Score - Text Formatting ... - Glen Shannon, 27 Feb 04:41AM