'Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets'

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Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Mark Isaacs, 12 Feb 08:56AM
     Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Mark Isaacs, 13 Feb 07:58AM
     Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Jürgen Simpson, 12 Sep 11:31PM
         Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Russell D, 13 Sep 03:18PM
             Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Jürgen Simpson, 13 Sep 11:24PM
                 Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Daniel Spreadbury, 14 Sep 07:35AM
                     Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Jürgen Simpson, 14 Sep 10:52AM
                         Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Jürgen Simpson, 15 Sep 10:07PM
                             Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Daniel Spreadbury, 15 Sep 11:45PM
                                 Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Jürgen Simpson, 22 Sep 03:31PM

Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 12 Feb 08:56AM (edited 13 Feb 05:35AM)
I have found (and Daniel and Tim have confirmed this) that the GPO sounds in SSE are newer than the same sounds in GPO 3.0 which I have. For example, I prefer the dynamic balance across registers and response to articulation markings of the GPO flute in SSE than in GPO itself. Same sample, just tweaked better to my ears in SSE.

However there are certain things that GPO offers that SSE does not with the same sound. For example, with flute, GPO has a flutter tongue sample.

I have set up to two Kontakt 2 players in my playback configuration. The first is set to SSE and the second to GPO. This works as I planned, Sibelius automatically and without any other setting chooses the SSE flute I want as it is in the sound set of the the first Kontakt player.

To get the flutter tongue sound I was advised to use Preferred Sounds and to set the Preferred Device for winds.flutes.flute.flutter-tongue to the second KP - Kontakt Player 2 (2) - where the GPO sounds are. It was expected that this would cause the GPO flutter tongue sample to load where I have indicated "flutter tongue". However it does not do so.

(If I load up the native GPO flute sound I get the flutter tongue result fine, so there is no problem with score indication or playback dictionary).

Any clue as to what I am doing wrong?



--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
Sibelius 5.2.5, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Garritan Personal Orchestra, Garritan Authorised Steinway.
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Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 13 Feb 07:58AM
Tim Swalling at Sibelius Australia has sorted this out for me.

As I understand it an instrument line that needs to flip between two devices will have the device set in the mixer as (Auto) to be able to do so.

I think that if in Preferred Devices in the playback configuration you set preferences such that the sound would need to source two devices eg flute sound from KP1 [SSE] and flutter tongue from KP2 [GPO] then it will default to (Auto) device in the mixer. When it does select a device I notice that it is in brackets which certainly promises the fluidity I need.

It's quite esoteric and I'd say no way I would have sorted that one from the manual alone. Thank goodness for the brilliant Sibelius customer support.


--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
Sibelius 5.2.5, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Garritan Personal Orchestra, Garritan Authorised Steinway.
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Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets
Posted by Jürgen Simpson - 12 Sep 11:31PM
I'm having exactly the same problem and can't seem to find a soloution. I am using both the VSL flute and the UVI Ircam flute. The former is the instrument of choice but I want all the extended techniques to trigger the UVI. I have both samplers activated and in the 'Manual Sound Sets' page I have the device set to UVI workstation, Use Manual Sound sets ticked, and in the sound ID area I've set (for example) "winds.flute.flute.slap". Then in 'Preferred Sounds' I have "winds.flute.flute.slap" set to UVI. However I can't seem to have any joy.

Solving this would be like Christmas!!!
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Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets
Posted by Russell D - 13 Sep 03:18PM
If this were me...
I'm assuming two VSTs and two multis.
Play > Playback Devices > Manual Soundsets > Show will give you your working library.
Allocate one channel per sample. Click on the channel number in the right-hand pane to be current on the sample to which you want to allocate a sound id, then do so either by overwriting (none) or using the elipsis.
Save the configuration, then change the device and click on Show to confirm that you are looking at the other sound library's multi. Repeat the sound ID allocation and save the configuration again.

When you are in your score you can now bind your staff to the sample and sound id in the mixer.

--
Sibelius 5.2.5
AMD Quad-core 9950, Vista x64, 4 GB RAM, Creative X-Fi Titanium
Kontakt 3.5, EWQLSO Gold
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Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets
Posted by Jürgen Simpson - 13 Sep 11:24PM (edited 14 Sep 10:33AM)
Thanks Musical_Russ,

Unfortunately this cannot work. Whilst I can get Sibelius to jump 'between' Manual Sound Sets from two VST/AU plug-ins, as soon as I choose my VSL system (which has its own specific sound ID set) Sibelius suddenly overrides ALL preferred sound commands in favour of the Vienna Library.

For example:
If I have a violin stave and set up two VSTs with one of these set to Sound ID 'strings.violin' and the other to Sound ID 'strings.violin.pizzicato' and ensure that the preferred sounds page references this second plug in as the preferred choice for the later Sound ID then when the score plays back it jumps as expected BETWEEN both plug-ins. Its brilliant!

But if however I now substitute the first plug-in with the Vienna Symphonic Library Violin and engage the accompanying Sound Set for this then my previous preferred sound choices are completely ignored. Very frustrating.

Any ideas?
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Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 14 Sep 07:35AM
Sibelius will always prefer to use a technique that's available as a switch from the current sound rather than switching to a different channel or even device, because our basic assumption when designing this was that if a playing technique is available by way of a switch from a given sound, it probably sounds better compared to the current sound than any of the other available sounds.

You'd have to override very specific sounds on the Preferred Sounds page of Playback Devices to affect this.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help:
USA & Canada: sibhelpUSA@sibelius.com / 1-888-280-9995
UK: sibhelpUK@sibelius.com / +44 (0)20 7561 7997
Australia: helpAU@sibelius.com / 1300 652 172
Other countries: www.sibelius.com/support
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Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets
Posted by Jürgen Simpson - 14 Sep 10:52AM
Hi Daniel,

I'm aware of Sibelius' preference on this but that is not the issue here. The fact of the matter is the the Vienna Symphonic Library only offers a limited palette of traditional articulations whereas in order to access such sounds as a Tongue-ram or Lip Smack for the flute I need to access the UVI IRCAM library. As you say, in order to override these specific sounds I need to use the Preferred Sounds page. This works fine if the instruments involved are not using a preprogrammed Sound Set XML file to source their articulation mapping. However once the VSL instruments get involved I cannot get the Preferred Sound articulations to work at all. I did in-depth testing last night to ensure I was not making some silly errors and AB tested the system using both VSL and then no VSL. Is this perhaps a bug?

Really appreciate you getting back on this so quickly. Solving this problem is a very big deal for me!
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Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets
Posted by Jürgen Simpson - 15 Sep 10:07PM
Hi Daniel,

any chance you've had time to look into this yet? Did some more testing today and can say with certainty that something is amiss here. Would appreciate any confirmation that the problem lies with the programme and not my programming!

Thanks.
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Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 15 Sep 11:45PM
In the situation where you have two identical sound IDs provided by two different devices, when that specific sound ID is requested, Sibelius will always choose the sound ID that can be accessed by way of a switch from the current sound if possible, even if the Preferred Sounds page specifies that this specific sound ID should be played by another device.

This isn't technically a bug, though I can see how it would be useful to be able to more strongly influence this behaviour.

For now, the solution is to ensure that the sound IDs specified in the switch types for the patches loaded in one device do not match exactly the sound IDs specified either by the Manual Sound Set created for the preferred device or the sound IDs in the sound set used by the preferred device. So if, for example, VSL provides "wind.flutes.flute.tongue-ram" and so does IRCAM, but you want Sibelius to use the IRCAM one, edit the sound ID in the VSL sound set to be something like "wind.flutes.flute.banana.tongue-ram" (you get the idea), which will make the IRCAM sound ID the preferred choice by default.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help:
USA & Canada: sibhelpUSA@sibelius.com / 1-888-280-9995
UK: sibhelpUK@sibelius.com / +44 (0)20 7561 7997
Australia: helpAU@sibelius.com / 1300 652 172
Other countries: www.sibelius.com/support
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Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets
Posted by Jürgen Simpson - 22 Sep 03:31PM
Excellent Daniel. I've been battling this problem for months and had reached despair. NOW it works! It's amazing actually so now I have access to all the best sounds from every library. This will play a huge role in my work henceforth.

Many thanks!
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Messages in this thread

Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Mark Isaacs, 12 Feb 08:56AM
     Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Mark Isaacs, 13 Feb 07:58AM
     Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Jürgen Simpson, 12 Sep 11:31PM
         Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Russell D, 13 Sep 03:18PM
             Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Jürgen Simpson, 13 Sep 11:24PM
                 Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Daniel Spreadbury, 14 Sep 07:35AM
                     Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Jürgen Simpson, 14 Sep 10:52AM
                         Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Jürgen Simpson, 15 Sep 10:07PM
                             Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Daniel Spreadbury, 15 Sep 11:45PM
                                 Re: Sib. 5.2.5: Choice of sound sets - Jürgen Simpson, 22 Sep 03:31PM