'Horn in E [no key]'

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Horn in E [no key] - The Aviv, 21 Oct 01:30AM
     Re: Horn in E [no key] - Adrian Drover, 21 Oct 07:45AM
         Re: Horn in E [no key] - Chris Crawley, 21 Oct 07:59AM
             Re: Horn in E [no key] - The Aviv, 22 Oct 11:02PM
                 Re: Horn in E [no key] - The Aviv, 22 Oct 11:14PM
                     Re: Horn in E [no key] - Chris Crawley, 23 Oct 12:07AM
                         Re: Horn in E [no key] - The Aviv, 23 Oct 12:22AM
                             Re: Horn in E [no key] - Adrian Drover, 23 Oct 06:17AM
                                 Re: Horn in E [no key] - Chris Crawley, 23 Oct 08:30AM
                             Re: Horn in E [no key] - Chris Crawley, 23 Oct 10:15AM
                                 Re: Horn in E [no key] - The Aviv, 31 Oct 08:03PM

Horn in E [no key]
Posted by The Aviv - 21 Oct 01:30AM
Hello fellow composers,

This is more of a question related to composing than to Sibelius.

Is there ever a reason nowadays to write for Horn in E as opposed to Horn in F?

I am looking at the score for "In the Hall of the Mountain King" by Edvard Grieg, who wrote for Horn in E.

Sibelius calls the instrument "Horn in E [no key]" - which, I understand, is due to tradition:

"Unlike other transposing instruments such as the clarinet, the horn part – along with the trumpets and timpani – has always been written without key signature at the beginning of the staff. This tradition dates back to the beginnings of orchestral music and is still practiced today. Accidentals were extremely rare and were written into the score." - https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Horn_in_F/Notation

I am guessing if Grieg lived today, he would have written for Horn in F - am I right?

Any answer would be appreciated, thanks.

--
Aviv
www.theaviv.ca
www.youtube.com/theavivca
Sibelius Ultimate 2021.9 | NotePerformer 3.3.2 | iMac
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Re: Horn in E [no key]
Posted by Adrian Drover - 21 Oct 07:45AM
Horn in E will most likely be a natural horn (no valves). If encountered today, the player would either acquire an instrument with E crook, or transpose the part to be played on F/Bb double horn. No key sig would be necessary.
Attachment horn in E.sib (83K)
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Re: Horn in E [no key]
Posted by Chris Crawley - 21 Oct 07:59AM (edited 21 Oct 08:07AM)

I doubt that Grieg intended his horn parts to be played on "natural" horns (i.e. valveless instruments with crooks). He was using a dying convention among some Romantic composers whereby horn music in sharp keys was notated in E and flat keys in Eb - e.g. Rachmaninov.

If encountered today, a part in E would be transposed mentally on the fly by the player and become a part in F.

All contemporary horn parts should be in F. Key signatures are sometimes used, but in orchestral contexts are probably best avoided.

--
Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico Pro 3.5.12, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 3.5, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100

cjcrawley@hotmail.com
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Re: Horn in E [no key]
Posted by The Aviv - 22 Oct 11:02PM
Thank you Adrian and Chris.

So let me see if I understand correctly... if Grieg was alive today and composing "In the Hall of the Mountain King" for the first time, he would be advised to write for Horn in F, right? And he would be advised to select "Horn in F [no key]" (if he were using Sibelius) and write the part without key signature, right?

If I were writing an orchestral piece in B minor, would I be advised to select "Horn in F [no key]" and write the part without key signature?

Thanks in advance.

--
Aviv
www.theaviv.ca
www.youtube.com/theavivca
Sibelius Ultimate 2021.9 | NotePerformer 3.3.2 | iMac
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Re: Horn in E [no key]
Posted by The Aviv - 22 Oct 11:14PM
By the way, thank you Adrian for the Sibelius file. It is appreciated.

--
Aviv
www.theaviv.ca
www.youtube.com/theavivca
Sibelius Ultimate 2021.9 | NotePerformer 3.3.2 | iMac
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Re: Horn in E [no key]
Posted by Chris Crawley - 23 Oct 12:07AM

"So let me see if I understand correctly... if Grieg was alive today and composing 'In the Hall of the Mountain King' for the first time, he would be advised to write for Horn in F, right? And he would be advised to select 'Horn in F [no key]' (if he were using Sibelius) and write the part without key signature, right?"

Yes.

"If I were writing an orchestral piece in B minor, would I be advised to select 'Horn in F [no key]' and write the part without key signature?

Yes.

--
Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico Pro 3.5.12, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 3.5, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100

cjcrawley@hotmail.com
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Re: Horn in E [no key]
Posted by The Aviv - 23 Oct 12:22AM
Thank you for confirming, Chris.

By the way, I noticed you have NotePerformer 3.5 in your signature. I thought the latest version was 3.3.2? Are you testing a new version?

--
Aviv
www.theaviv.ca
www.youtube.com/theavivca
Sibelius Ultimate 2021.9 | NotePerformer 3.3.2 | iMac
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Re: Horn in E [no key]
Posted by Adrian Drover - 23 Oct 06:17AM
For any new composition, you would write for horn in F. I'm sure Chris will bear me out on this, that any professional player will have no problem reading parts with key signatures. I always include key sig in my charts for horn (unless the piece is very much of an atonal nature). Only once have I had a part returned from a young player with accidentals pencilled in.
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Re: Horn in E [no key]
Posted by Chris Crawley - 23 Oct 08:30AM

Adrian is correct about horn players and key signatures. Any half-decent player will cope with them. Film music, shows and lighter orchestral music tend to have them.

At the moment I'm rehearsing a contemporary piece with narrator for children. The horn parts start off using key signatures, but the composer abandons this part way through and uses accidentals - which is definitely not best practice.

--
Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico Pro 3.5.12, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 3.5, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100

cjcrawley@hotmail.com
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Re: Horn in E [no key]
Posted by Chris Crawley - 23 Oct 10:15AM

"I noticed you have NotePerformer 3.5 in your signature."

It's an error on my part, which is possibly a confusion with Dorico. Now corrected. No, I'm not testing a new version of NP.

--
Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico Pro 3.5.12, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100

cjcrawley@hotmail.com
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Re: Horn in E [no key]
Posted by The Aviv - 31 Oct 08:03PM
Thanks for all the answers.

--
Aviv
www.theaviv.ca
www.youtube.com/theavivca
Sibelius Ultimate 2021.9 | NotePerformer 3.3.2 | iMac
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Messages in this thread

Horn in E [no key] - The Aviv, 21 Oct 01:30AM
     Re: Horn in E [no key] - Adrian Drover, 21 Oct 07:45AM
         Re: Horn in E [no key] - Chris Crawley, 21 Oct 07:59AM
             Re: Horn in E [no key] - The Aviv, 22 Oct 11:02PM
                 Re: Horn in E [no key] - The Aviv, 22 Oct 11:14PM
                     Re: Horn in E [no key] - Chris Crawley, 23 Oct 12:07AM
                         Re: Horn in E [no key] - The Aviv, 23 Oct 12:22AM
                             Re: Horn in E [no key] - Adrian Drover, 23 Oct 06:17AM
                                 Re: Horn in E [no key] - Chris Crawley, 23 Oct 08:30AM
                             Re: Horn in E [no key] - Chris Crawley, 23 Oct 10:15AM
                                 Re: Horn in E [no key] - The Aviv, 31 Oct 08:03PM