Sibelius - the leading music composition and notation software

Hi again folks,

(Please see above two attachments of the trumpet/tenor individual part.)

I have been slaving-away trying to devise a system for scoring a (Chick Corea) piece (for jazz octet) which consists of defined motifs assigned to certain sections of the ensemble - well, at least that's the way I interpret it!

Because the piece is, for all intents and purposes, largely 'free', I have decided that I need to add 'cue-size' notes (in place of multi-rests) so as to aid the musician(s) as they move ('freely') from one section to another).

Anyway, more to the point - obviously, as the piece is in the key of E Major (concert) throughout, the two aforementioned horns are both in F# Major. However, (and this is what has been totally wrecking my head all night!): should I write the 'cue' sized notes in concert (E), or in the key (F#) of the transposing instrument?

For example, in screenshot_1 the bassist is 'cued' as playing F#, B, and G#; but in the second screenshot (which is in concert) he/she is 'cued' as playing E, B, and F# (which are the 'exact' pitches the bassist plays - ie. the fist note is {open-string} bottom-E).

I hope I have explained this clearly. I found it a bit tricky to out into words.

Many thanks in advance for any kind assistance offered here.

Best,

Paul David Seaman (UK)

Sibelius 8.6 (v. 2018.1 / build 1449 / born 2018-01-22)

Dell Inspiron 3737, Windows 10, 16GB RAM, 1.70gHz, 64-bit, Intel Core i3.

paulseaman1 (at) hotmail (dot) com

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Feb 11:57PM

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>I can't readily see any difference between your screenshots Q1 & Q2 (and I am not going waste time playing "Where's Wally?" to spot any [how about annotating the screenshots?]).

Mark - one is a tone higher than the other. I just called them 'Q' 1 & 2 (that was MY shorthand for "cue") as I was creating and saving them in Paint.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 18 Feb 11:59PM

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>In fact, there is no body text in your posts!

Mark - I was replying to your kind response regarding 'transposing' whilst in the middle of creating this thread . . .

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 12:00AM

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>Since you haven't written "(help?)" as you usually do, maybe you don't want help here? :)

Mark - I have ceased using that suffix because it was causing uproar! lol

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 12:06AM (edited 19 Feb 12:08AM)

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I deleted that post. I responded before you made your third post which clarified everything in the 2 posts above it. Before that I was stumped.

You'd be better off putting everything in the one post (2 x screenshots attached and body text: one post). You can edit a post to add a second attachment, and it will keep the first attachment.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
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Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 12:03AM (edited 19 Feb 12:10AM)

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1. Cues are always written in the transposition of the instrument at hand (i.e. show the cues in F# major).
2. Cues should be in the same CLEF as the instrument at hand (use 15vb or 22vb and keep your part in treble clef for the cues)
3 Cue notes are cue-sized (yours are not, despite the thread title saying they are).
4. Cue should be labelled with the instrument that is playing the music which is cued.
5. Check out Sibelius' "Paste as Cue" function which will do all the work for you. It will hide the cues in the score and show them in the part only. It kills playback too (you probably don't care about that)

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 01:13AM

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>I deleted that post. I responded before you made your third post which clarified everything in the 2 posts above it. Before that I was stumped.

>You'd be better off putting everything in the one post (2 x screenshots attached and body text: one post). You can edit a post to add a second attachment, and it will keep the first attachment.

Mark - I split everything up so as to answer each point individually. And I had two forum tabs open as I was responding to your other reply. Sorry for any miscommunication!

I never managed to get two screenshots attached to a single post, for some reason. It's just never worked for me ;-(

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 01:22AM (edited 19 Feb 01:24AM)

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Mark,

Thanks so much for that advice. I was really tying up myself in knots here!

I have closed Sib. now (so no screengrab), but my procedure was to open the second-tab on the (virtual) 'key-pad' and use the 'O/o' icon at the bottom-right (you knew what I had done anyway!). I honestly thought that was how you created 'cue' size notes? Obviously this (key-pad) function has a different role?

I am not going to change THIS score now because I have spent five days on it and I am desperately trying to attain 25 charts in my octet library (I have 19 now!). But I will apply your expert advice to all future similar scenarios . . .

Very much appreciated once again.

Paul

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 01:39AM

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That IS indeed how you create cue notes. Maybe they are! The reason I assumed they weren't is because the bass clef notes look the same size as the other notes in the screenshot. Maybe they're all cue notes? In any case, you can toggle that Keypad button yourself and see if the size changes. It's hard to judge relative sizes in a screen shot.

Re the other things though, I'm amused that you "tie yourself in knots" about what the right thing to do is, and when you find out, you just leave the chart as wrong! Glad I can help you "in the future" :)

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 02:07AM

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>Re the other things though, I'm amused that you "tie yourself in knots" about what the right thing to do is, and when you find out, you just leave the chart as wrong! Glad I can help you "in the future" :)

Actually, let me rephrase that statement, please: I am not totally dismissing your superb help in this particular score, just SOME of it. I'm keeping the cues in the respective transposed keys of the blowers, as you correctly advise. However, making other changes throws text/markings into slight disarray; and having spent five days on it I want to put it to bed now. I mean, it's got to the stage where I'm disliking the piece because of the time it's taken me to compile it. I hate it when this happens and it's certainly not the first time. But as I say, I now know for future scores of the correct methodologies, thanks. And there are at least another three 'free' jazz pieces in my shortlist to complete before lockdown ceases...

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 02:14AM

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Mark,

The warning/courtesy clefs (at the end of some of the systems) appear in 'cue' size - Sib. automatically created these for me. But I don't seem to be able to make the ones which fall at the start of a system so? Clicking on the keypad '0/o' produces no change?

Paul

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 02:24AM (edited 19 Feb 02:33AM)

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> Mark,
>
> The warning/courtesy clefs (at the end of some of the systems) appear in 'cue' size - Sib. automatically created these for me. But I don't seem to be able to make the ones which fall at the start of a system so? Clicking on the keypad '0/o' produces no change?

You are under two misapprehensions:

1. Sibelius won't change the size of the main clefs to cue size for you because it is simply WRONG to do so. Just because there is "cue notes" material in a line of music doesn't mean the main clefs themselves should change size! Only the NOTES should change size (and any clef changes that are part of the ACTUAL cue itself)

2. The reason the "courtesy" - or "warning" clefs are smaller at the end of the line before a clef change has nothing at all to do with "cues"! They are traditionally shown smaller because they warning/courtesy clefs. They are not in "cue size" as you assert! They are in "warning/courtesy" size. You are confusing two entirely different things.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 02:14AM

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All good!

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 02:35AM

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Many thanks again for taking the time and trouble to advise here, Mark. It's a shame you don't live closer!

When you mentioned earlier about the fact that changing certain notation parameters within Sib. will mess up the 'playback' of my latest score, can Sib. actually perform a 'free' jazz arrangement? lol. Or were you deliberately being tactfully witty in your response?!

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 02:50AM (edited 19 Feb 02:53AM)

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>> When you mentioned earlier about the fact that changing certain notation parameters within Sib. will mess up the 'playback' of my latest score, can Sib. actually perform a 'free' jazz arrangement? lol. Or were you deliberately being tactfully witty in your response?!

We're not on the same page. I didn't say anything about "messing up" playback.

I said that the "Paste as Cue" function stops the cues created with it playing back. That's a great function and desirable if you care about playback. Who would want "cues" to playback? Generally you have said that you don't use playback so I said you probably won't be concerned either way. That's all.

I was not talking about THIS score. I have only seen a few bars in a screenshot so I don't know how much material could play back or not i.e. how 'free improv' it is! Of course Sibelius only plays back actual written notes, and has some limited ability to play chord symbols with a plugin.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 03:06AM

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Mark - Here's the track itself which I transcribed (if you can call it a transcription!!!!). Cheers.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yeLDOleyzYo

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 03:16AM (edited 19 Feb 03:17AM)

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A side of Chick often forgotten.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
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Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 03:29AM

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> A side of Chick often forgotten.

That's absolutely correct; I am so very pleased to hear you say that!

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 03:33AM

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After 1970, he didn't do much in that way in groups. But his solo introductions to band tunes were still often very "free", right till the end.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 08:27PM

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> After 1970, he didn't do much in that way in groups. But his solo introductions to band tunes were still often very "free", right till the end.

Yes, I have to agree once again.

From the wealth of info I have gleaned over the years Corea seems to feel he was losing (ie. not 'communicating' with) his audiences when presenting music of this format. Although 'Circle' (with the amazing talents of Dave Holland and Anthony Braxton) was an excellent combination of players and compositional concepts, Corea, sadly, decided to disband the unit after less than a couple of years, if that.

I think, after forming (and the success of) 'RTF' he never looked back (and neither did his bank manager after the release of "Spain"!) lol

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 08:32PM (edited 19 Feb 08:33PM)

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>2. Cues should be in the same CLEF as the instrument at hand (use 15vb or 22vb and keep your part in treble clef for the cues)

Dearest Mark,

I think I may possibly have you cornered here! lol ;-)

In which case what the bloody hell do you notate for the DRUMS?! I mean, the Kit uses (in all of my charts at least) a 'non-pitched' clef?!

(Please see attach.).

Attachment

Drum_Set.png (186K)

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 08:53PM (edited 19 Feb 08:53PM)

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Isn't bass clef traditional for a drum kit? Not that you have to do that.

In general terms, if your instrument uses a non-pitched clef then you'll have to introduce a pitch clef just for the cued material passage, or use an ossia staff to put the cue on. Or just notate the cue as a rhythm.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
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Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 09:08PM

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>Isn't bass clef traditional for a drum kit? Not that you have to do that.

In general terms, if your instrument uses a non-pitched clef then you'll have to introduce a pitch clef just for the cued material passage, or use an ossia staff to put the cue on. Or just notate the cue as a rhythm.

Great point, Mark.

Well, yes - when I used to play certain percussion instruments in the local county orchestra during my school years the parts WERE indeed written in bass clef. And so, all of my circa 30+ years worth of hand-written drum parts (for cabaret acts) were made using this legend.

I use the JAZZ fonts/scores within Sib. for all of my arrangements to date. By default Sib. assigns the 'non-pitched' clef to the drummer.

The ossia staff option might be more fitting for other instruments but I dare say it's overkill for the drummer! A 'rhythmic' outline would be more suitable, I feel. However, I could, as I have done, introduce clef-changes where required (a bit messy but then at least she/he can't blame the part/arranger if they get LOST after 8-bars!).

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Feb 09:25PM

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Doesn't Sibelius take MIDI input from a keyboard into a drum clef as treble clef? Play F for the bass arum etc.?

Rather neat how, when you stretch a 9th to enter BD plus hi-hat in the same beat, it knows you want a cross-head note on the top one!

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 09:26PM (edited 19 Feb 09:26PM)

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Hi,

I was not going to tag another question onto this thread but I have decided to so as to avoid clogging up the forum (and also because it directly relates to the arrangement in discussion here).

(Please see attach. and link.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=yeLDOleyzYo

For the sake of providing at least a suggestion of the tempo/genre/etc of the piece I have (circled in blue) added some detail. Is this suffice, or does it detract, please? I mean, I am trying to place all of my charts into some kind of pigeon-hole. Personally I dislike it when arrangers hand-out a part with zilch info on!

Although this piece leans towards the 'free' category more than anything else I still feel it merits and qualifies for descriptive data.

Paul

Attachment

Tempo.png (246K)

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 09:29PM

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>Doesn't Sibelius take MIDI input from a keyboard into a drum clef as treble clef?

LP. - Possibly much to your dislike I enter (literally) all data via a numeric-keypad (at my right-side).

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Feb 09:34PM

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> LP. - Possibly much to your dislike I enter (literally) all data via a numeric-keypad (at my right-side).

That's fine. But if there IS a MIDI keyboard handy, it can be a very useful alternative method for note entry.

I find the BIG time saver is being alert to chances to copy/paste/modify. Music is full of repeated patterns. It's very likely any particular complex bit of notation only needs creating once in each piece.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 09:51PM (edited 19 Feb 09:52PM)

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> Hi,
>
> I was not going to tag another question onto this thread but I have decided to so as to avoid clogging up the forum (and also because it directly relates to the arrangement in discussion here).
>
> (Please see attach. and link.)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=yeLDOleyzYo
>
> For the sake of providing at least a suggestion of the tempo/genre/etc of the piece I have (circled in blue) added some detail. Is this suffice, or does it detract, please? I mean, I am trying to place all of my charts into some kind of pigeon-hole. Personally I dislike it when arrangers hand-out a part with zilch info on!
>
> Although this piece leans towards the 'free' category more than anything else I still feel it merits and qualifies for descriptive data.
>
> Paul

Why wouldn't you provide a neat description at the top beside the tempo mark? That's been the practice in music for about 300 years! One of the first things I think about is the tempo and mood description that will go at the top of a piece before getting the notes down. It's hard to understand why this might be an issue!

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 09:59PM

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>Why wouldn't you provide a neat description at the top beside the tempo mark? That's been the practice in music for about 300 years! >One of the first things I think about is the tempo and mood description that will go at the top of a piece before getting the notes down. It's hard to understand why this might be an issue!

Well you should play for some of the cabaret/club acts I have (in the past)! lol

How arrangers are there in the world as conscientious as yourself and other members of this forum? Far and few between, to say the least.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 10:01PM

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>Why wouldn't you provide a neat description at the top beside the tempo mark?

And so do I have your kind blessing that what I have written is perfectly acceptable? Not that I am soliciting for compliments here.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 10:08PM (edited 19 Feb 10:12PM)

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> >Why wouldn't you provide a neat description at the top beside the tempo mark?
>
> And so do I have your kind blessing that what I have written is perfectly acceptable? Not that I am soliciting for compliments here.

Nope. I'm not going to do that, and I'm not going focus on the flattery implied (towards me in asking for my "blessing"). I'm prepared to say there is nothing inherently wrong with providing a mood/genre description beside the tempo mark: That much is obvious. But you don't need me to tell you whether the particular words you have chosen are "perfectly acceptable". It's YOUR work! (I'm wanting to empower you here).

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 10:05PM

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> Well you should play for some of the cabaret/club acts I have (in the past)! lol
>
> How arrangers are there in the world as conscientious as yourself and other members of this forum? Far and few between, to say the least.

So you already know those arrangers lack conscientiousness. So you already know to NOT follow their lead. So you don't need our blessing then.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 11:01PM (edited 19 Feb 11:02PM)

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>Nope. I'm not going to do that, and I'm not going focus on the flattery implied (towards me in asking for my "blessing"). I'm prepared to say there is nothing inherently wrong with providing a mood/genre description beside the tempo mark: That much is obvious. But you don't need me to tell you whether the particular words you have chosen are "perfectly acceptable". It's YOUR work! (I'm wanting to empower you here).

Well it's always good to seek a second opinion, sometimes (sorry for the oxymoron!).

I suppose, as we have discussed last year, the band rehearses once per month and so nothing will be sight-read on the fly - or without my presence.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 19 Feb 11:05PM

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>So you already know those arrangers lack conscientiousness. So you already know to NOT follow their lead. So you don't need our blessing then.

Typically, these crooks rip-off poor female vocalists who pay good money for these arrangements - and so the latter can't understand why their band-calls take double the amount of time as should do. I have even been asked to re-write arrangements on a cruise because the parts are so bad (I am talking mostly about the 'geography' of the parts here).

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 19 Feb 11:47PM (edited 20 Feb 02:51AM)

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> >So you already know those arrangers lack conscientiousness. So you already know to NOT follow their lead. So you don't need our blessing then.
>
> Typically, these crooks rip-off poor female vocalists who pay good money for these arrangements - and so the latter can't understand why their band-calls take double the amount of time as should do. I have even been asked to re-write arrangements on a cruise because the parts are so bad (I am talking mostly about the 'geography' of the parts here).

Starting out as a professional musician when very young and needing to pay the rent, I did lots of things in music to survive. But the one thing I NEVER did - even though there was plenty of easy money to be made there at the time - was to write charts for cabaret acts. Of course I PLAYED for some of these acts, but that was over in a couple of hours, you get to hang and play with other good musicians making money to pay the rent, you can try and make a simple groove feel good, even slip in subversive creative voicings and rhythms etc to stay interested, you might even get something to eat etc. That was well manageable. But sitting all alone at a desk writing a chart for some dumb song that must, as an arrangement, be completely generic and devoid of all creativity? I refused to pollute my writing - and my love of writing - by doing that. Cheesy playing gigs I did aplenty, but never a cheesy writing gig. Writing is a very hard thing to keep going at the best of times because it's so lonely. Doing it in a generic sweatshop outputting trash at any price would destroy the soul, I feel. I was also choosy about the film scoring gigs I would do for the same reasons, and managed to blow my lucrative career there by being that way. Not sorry.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Feb 01:27PM

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What's the weather like up there?
.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Feb 08:44PM

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Evening Mark,

That's a very good discipline to set yourself, I'd say for sure.

I have only produced cabaret parts by-hand. Funnily enough when I first bought Sib. I made an uninfluenced and conscious decision to NOT score any music other than my own (or that by respected jazz artists). Similar to yourself I was concerned that any 'inferior' musical qualities might spill over and pollute my own music; also it was a matter of 'self-respect'. I'm quite happy to have made no money whatsoever from owning Sib. even though a plentiful amount of colleagues have tried to twist my arm - I know that if I do it once it will become a regular thing and then everyone will class me as being a "cheesy" arranger! Every single time I sit down at Sib. I am doing so for specific reasons (out of great respect for the music of my idols, self-development, trying to establish a positive reputation in the music business, etc).

I may not be as musically accomplished as yourself and many others on this forum, but I do set my standards very high (unrealistically high often!), and I seem to have an ongoing burning hunger for knowledge . . .

(btw - I have never shared these inner thoughts with anyone before!)

Paul

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 20 Feb 08:46PM

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> What's the weather like up there?

LP. Very cold and windy, but not snowing anymore. A perfect night for gigging, albeit alas not to be! ;-(

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 20 Feb 09:06PM (edited 20 Feb 09:14PM)

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> > What's the weather like up there?
>
> LP. Very cold and windy, but not snowing anymore. A perfect night for gigging, albeit alas not to be! ;-(

I think Laurence was aiming his weather enquiry at me. I think I can guess what he actually meant, and I don't think it was about the weather.

Thanks for sharing how you have also made your own choices for your artistic integrity over easy money with your writing, Paul; it was great to read that. None of us can do it all the time (I certainly didn't as I said) but it can be worth sharing our stories which may even inspire younger musicians as the culture more and more reinforces other values above all else.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Adrian Drover - 20 Feb 09:28PM

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I think Laurence was aiming his weather enquiry at me.
===================================================

I was wondering who the question was aimed at. I didn't think it could be you, Mark, as Oz is down there, not up, and I don't know where Paul hangs out in relation to London. In Scotland, it's dreich (with a gutteral "ch") as normal for the land who's national flower is mildew.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 20 Feb 09:54PM (edited 21 Feb 01:54AM)

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Laurence was being a bit more cryptic than that, I think, and as I suggested, if he was talking to me he wasn't really asking about the weather. "What's the weather like up there?" is often said to tall people. It's also works as a good line for someone being "high and mighty", "too lofty" or "carrying airs" & etc.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Bob Zawalich plugins, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i5 7400 Quad Core Processor (3GHz-3.5GHz 6MB), 8GB RAM, 27'' monitor, NotePerformer 3.3.2, Sibelius Sounds, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Gold (Kontakt), Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, ASIO4ALL.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Feb 09:57PM

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> I was wondering who the question was aimed at.

Really? Anyone elevated on a lofty equine. I wouldn't be so coarse as to suggest it might refer to anyone with their head in an ideal location to check out their own prostate.
.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 21 Feb 02:32AM (edited 21 Feb 02:32AM)

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>I was wondering who the question was aimed at.

. . . and I don't know where Paul hangs out in relation to London.

Ade - lol, I was wondering the exact same thing myself!

I lived in North London for seven years; studying, and also working as a pathetic teacher by day, and a very tired cocktail pianist by night! This was between 1999 and 2007. But for personal and family reasons I relocated back home to where my family reside about 5 miles from the centre of Liverpool. (Mark, that's where The Beatles are from!!!)

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 21 Feb 02:36AM

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>Thanks for sharing how you have also made your own choices for your artistic integrity over easy money with your writing, Paul; it was great to read that.

Cheers Mark, I appreciate your encouragement once again. Yes, "integrity" was the word I was scrambling around for, thank-you.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 21 Feb 02:37AM

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>Really? Anyone elevated on a lofty equine. I wouldn't be so coarse as to suggest it might refer to anyone with their head in an ideal location to check out their own prostate.

LP. - This has gone totally under my head ;-0

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Adrian Drover - 21 Feb 07:32AM (edited 21 Feb 07:52AM)

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From Paul. I relocated back home to where my family reside about 5 miles from the centre of Liverpool
=======================================

So you must be familiar with Cannonball Adderley's song "Mersey, Mersey, Mersey" ;-)

Attachment

mersey.sib (112K)

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 21 Feb 06:19PM

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In my experience, whenever I've attempted anything even vaguely 'creative' in a cabaret chart, next time it hit my music stand I'd find it had been 'corrected'. And probably quite right too!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to jot down a top line and chords of this for a ukelele-playing comic who is more optimistic than I am about there being some gigs in the forseeable future. But at least it enables me to pay double for car insurance for being a musician. Heigh ho!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u27jvRquHMo

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 21 Feb 10:54PM (edited 21 Feb 10:54PM)

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So you must be familiar with Cannonball Adderley's song "Mersey, Mersey, Mersey" ;-)

Did you source that joke from a Christmas cracker?, or from a Liverpool crack-head!

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 21 Feb 10:56PM

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>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u27jvRquHMo

He looks like Albert Einstein!

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 21 Feb 11:26PM

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When Ray Jessel presented a slightly cleaned-up version on America's Got Talent, they omitted to mention he's a veteran Hollywood writer and composer!

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 11 Mar 11:11PM

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. . . I'm taggin' this question to here for the usual reasons explained umpteen times ;-)

(Please see attach.)

On the Bass & Drums (and any other instrument who is following a 'cue' sized melodic-line): should I include articulation, please? (ie. dots and dashes as per screenshot)?

Many thanks as always!

Attachment

Cue.png (11K)

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 11 Mar 11:15PM

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. . . and DITTO question for Italian term dynamics (ie. ff, mp, and all those)?

Cheers.

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by Rob Tuley - 12 Mar 01:11AM

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If it will help the player to follow the cue, yes.

If not, no.

(Some notation software dynamically links cues to the source material so they can't get out of sync when you edit the music, and you get quite a lot of options over what to include and how to format it...)
--
Rob

Sib 4.1, Windows 10.

Attachment

cue options.png (28K)

Re: (OT) Cue-Size Notes (Accidentals)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 12 Mar 01:59PM (edited 12 Mar 02:00PM)

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> If it will help the player to follow the cue, yes.
>
> If not, no.

Hi Rob,

Well FWIW, they hardly take up much real-estate on the page and so I may as well just include them. If anything I do anticipate, at the end of the day, that they will indeed "help."

I'm assuming that Sib. does not posses the fancy feature to "dynamically link cues"?

Paul