'System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue?'

Messages in this thread

System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Joshua Wiczer, 26 Mar 07:33PM
     Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Mike Lyons, 26 Mar 08:31PM
         Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Joshua Wiczer, 26 Mar 08:58PM
             Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Robin Walker, 26 Mar 09:33PM
                 Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Joshua Wiczer, 26 Mar 09:56PM
                     Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Robin Walker, 26 Mar 10:40PM
                         Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Joshua Wiczer, 27 Mar 02:01AM
                             Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Mike Lyons, 27 Mar 07:08AM
                             Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Robin Walker, 27 Mar 07:45AM
                                 Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Joshua Wiczer, 27 Mar 04:26PM

System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue?
Posted by Joshua Wiczer - 26 Mar 07:33PM
Hello,

I am working on an engraving project where some expressions should appear on all staves (once the parts are created) and some expressions should only appear on certain staves. The expressions that should appear on all staves, in the full-score, should only appear on the top staff and in the keyboard part.

I figured that a way I could do this is to have two "expression" styles. I have the standard one, which is a staff expression, that would be used when I want an expression to only appear on a specific part. I also created a new style, (which I named "expression-system text"), for those expressions that will eventually appear on all parts and will appear in the full-score on the top line and in the keyboard part. I manually set the font options so it would look exactly like the expression text.

However, there are size discrepancies. I can't figure out what I'm missing here. I have the same text typed into one measure, in the two styles. The "expression" style appears at 7.9 while the "expression-system text" style appears at 7.6. I'm attaching the file -- it's measure 12 where I set up the two styles side by side.

Is there something setting that I'm missing that would cause the system text to appear smaller than the staff text? Would anyone be willing to help me out?

Thanks in advance,
Josh
Attachment 12-01 - V'sham'ru (Rothblum) (v1).sib (179K)
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Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue?
Posted by Mike Lyons - 26 Mar 08:31PM
I don't think you fully understand what expression text means in sibelius speak. It is a textstyle use for dynamics and other terms that go under the staff. It uses a special font substitution to create the correct look on the score and parts.

Performance directions is probably a better term when you are trying to explain what you want to the rest of us.

In any case, if you want text to appear the same size in the score and in the parts, you need to set "Keep absolute" in the text styles dialog for your text styles.

There is only one text style in use in bar 12 in the score you posted (expression-staff text). When looking at your score I noticed there were discrepancies between the numbers I placed in the font size box in the text styles dialog, but I suspect this may be due to rounding errors. Be aware, also, that the size in score and parts will be affected by the staff size selected and also by rounding errors (particularly at small sizes.)

Text that is to only appear on certain staves should use a staff text style (blue when selected) such as expression(below the staff), technique, boxed text(above the staff))and those that are to appear on all staves should use a system text style (purple when selected) such as Tempo, MM, boxed system text etc.

--
Win 10 Pro x64, Sib Ultimate 2020.1(build 2221) 2.6GHz Intel Core i7 9750H, 32GB,10TB (SSD + 7200rpm HDD), Scarlett 2i4, Sib 6.2,7.5, NotePerformer and others.
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.
mike@mike-lyons.co.uk
Attachment keep absolute.png (94K)
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Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue?
Posted by Joshua Wiczer - 26 Mar 08:58PM
Hi Mike,

Thank you for your quick response! I really appreciate it.

Yes -- sorry for the incorrect language on my part. I shouldn't have called it "expression" text -- I really meant system text versus staff text.

Perhaps I uploaded the wrong version of the file. I'm going to re-upload it here. I'm referring to measure 12, and the text that I typed into the keyboard part where I have the two styles showing up - the "expression" style (which is a staff style) and the "expression-system" style (which is a system style.)

I also think I might have not explained the issue correctly. My goal is to have a "style" that I can use that will either appear on all staves (as a system style) or just on certain staves (as staff style.) I want the text to appear the same, regardless of if it's a system style or a staff style. I took the style "expression" (which is a staff style) and created a style "expression-system" (which is a system style, and I made sure all the font specifications are the same as those in the "expression" style. I assumed text entered in these two styles would look identical, but it doesn't. In measure 12, in the keyboard, I typed the same thing using both styles; I'm unclear why they are showing up in different sizes.

"Keep absolute" didn't do anything for me, when I checked that. And I would like that not checked anyhow, so when I change the staff sizes, the text sizes would change proportionally.

Any thoughts here? I understand that there could be some rounding issues, but I don't understand why they look different when all of the specifications are the same.

Thank you! Sorry if what I'm asking isn't clear, on my end -- but I would certainly appreciate any help if anyone has any additional thoughts!

Thanks a lot,
Josh
Attachment 12-01 - V'sham'ru (Rothblum) (v1).sib (179K)
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Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue?
Posted by Robin Walker - 26 Mar 09:33PM
The problem lies in the Text Style definitions. Sibelius versions 7 and upwards rounds all displayed font sizes to .5pt, even when the actual stored size is different.

So, the stored font size for "Expression (Ctrl-E)" is actually 10.9pt rather than the 10.5pt displayed. That's why it appears larger in your score.

--
Sibelius 2020.1/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2020.1, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.
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Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue?
Posted by Joshua Wiczer - 26 Mar 09:56PM
Aha, thank you! So, it looks like my plan won't work, of having a system style and a staff style that appear identical (down to the size). Thank you for looking at this!

Josh
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Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue?
Posted by Robin Walker - 26 Mar 10:40PM
If you re-define both text styles with your desired point-size values, then both will store the same set of values, and both will round them for display in the same way.

--
Sibelius 2020.1/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2020.1, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.
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Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue?
Posted by Joshua Wiczer - 27 Mar 02:01AM
Hmm... but that was the problem I was running into. I think that I have both styles defined the same way. That's why I was so confused why one is appearing larger than the other. One is staff-style and the other is a system-style, but other than that, I think that the way I defined them is the same.

Josh
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Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue?
Posted by Mike Lyons - 27 Mar 07:08AM
Just to confirm, I set the Keep absolute ticks and set the point sizes to 11.5pt. In the score, I set the system style as 11.5 and the staff style was showing as 11.5! Smaller font sizes cause problems with rounding, as Robin has said.

A further caution. The expression style used when you press [ctrl]e should really only be used for dynamics. If you want to copy its settings, create a NEW text style based on it, give it a separate, meaningful name and use that instead. If you don't do this, you may find issues when you want to use real dynamics. You may also find that sib will try to obey dynamic letters within the text (m, p, f, etc). To avoid this, you might consider turning off the playback interpretation at the bottom right of the text styles dialog.

--
Win 10 Pro x64, Sib Ultimate 2020.1(build 2221) 2.6GHz Intel Core i7 9750H, 32GB,10TB (SSD + 7200rpm HDD), Scarlett 2i4, Sib 6.2,7.5, NotePerformer and others.
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.
mike@mike-lyons.co.uk
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Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue?
Posted by Robin Walker - 27 Mar 07:45AM
> I think that I have both styles defined the same way.

No, you don't, because you haven't input new values for "Expression (Ctrl-E)" - you were just using the ones that Sibelius had by default.

You need to input the same values of font sizes into both versions of "Expression", and save them.

--
Sibelius 2020.1/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 2020.1, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.
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Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue?
Posted by Joshua Wiczer - 27 Mar 04:26PM
Thank you, both of you! Problem solved!

I appreciate the help!
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Messages in this thread

System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Joshua Wiczer, 26 Mar 07:33PM
     Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Mike Lyons, 26 Mar 08:31PM
         Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Joshua Wiczer, 26 Mar 08:58PM
             Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Robin Walker, 26 Mar 09:33PM
                 Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Joshua Wiczer, 26 Mar 09:56PM
                     Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Robin Walker, 26 Mar 10:40PM
                         Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Joshua Wiczer, 27 Mar 02:01AM
                             Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Mike Lyons, 27 Mar 07:08AM
                             Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Robin Walker, 27 Mar 07:45AM
                                 Re: System Text vs. Staff Text Size-Issue? - Joshua Wiczer, 27 Mar 04:26PM