Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Morriah - 29 Nov 07:40PM Hide picture I use Sibelius for many years. I think I first buy Sib 1.? (circa ‘99/‘00(?)), when Finn brothers own/operate/control this App, and I loved using it! However, since Avid purchased, discontinued, (tried to) bring it back to life, I have been very disappointed. In fact, and my opinion only, I believe they have ruined it! I did read this: When Avid discontinued Sibelius (around v7 or v8), they fire entire original staff, and that opened the door for other companies to pick up the ball that Avid dropped on the score-writing community. Thankfully, Steinberg hired allot/most of the then-unemployed Sib writers, and released Dorico. As of right now, I think Dorico is still in the developmental stage. Hopefully, they will listen to user’s input about features they should add, and, in a place that Avid’s version of Sibelius fails at miserably, the GUI, or User Interface... not to mention the ridiculous pricing/subscription methodology they’ve introduced, to around 17ish years of film scoring happiness)) Sorry if this was more of an angry soliloquy, than a helpful comment, but in the past 4-5 years, business productivity has dropped like the brick that Sibelius has become. Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Peter Roos - 29 Nov 08:38PM Hide picture I'm not sure whether this is a (serious), but Avid has released many terrific updated in recent years. What happened back in 2012 is not the proudest moment in Avid's corporate history (good riddance to the then CEO, who was fired not soon thereafter) but Avid has definitely not abandoned Sibeliuss. After a few rocky starts in building up a new development team, Avid now puts out several updated in any given year, free to all subscribers. The notion "Avid has abondoned Sibelius" is really a bit silly, to be honest. That said, if you want to try Dorico I would certainly recommend trying it (there's 30 day trial). At this point is a mature product which doesn't yet have all the bells and whistles everyone wants, but it's not in the development stage anymore. Not everyone agrees with me, but in hindsight, all the stupid sh** that happened in 2012 actually has worked out very well for us users, because we have not two but three terrific engraving programs to choose from (the major engraving programs). And Daniel and his team were allowed to develop a new program from the ground up. A win-win for everyone. -- Peter Roos www.summeroflovemusic.com IMDb: www.imdb.com/name/nm2039241 Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Bob Zawalich - 29 Nov 11:18PM Hide picture I would be the last person to agree that the 2012 events were anything but a disaster. Fortunately, Steinberg hired as much of the original team as they could, and Dorico is the result. Steinberg and music publishing as a whole are better off as a result. Sibelius stumbled badly as a result, and it was a very painful time for many of us. Sibelius has made a number of useful, if mostly modest, improvements in the past few years, and it is really much better off than I would have thought likely. But it is nowhere near what it might have become if the original team had been working on it and given resources such as Dorico received. Sibelius is doing as well as it has because of the dedication of the people working on it. I give Avid some credit for not shutting down all development, but not much else. -- Bob An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 2019+, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2019. Free Resources: Notating Harp Music In Sibelius: http://www.bobzawalich.com/harp-notation-in-sibelius/ Get Saved Sibelius Version: http://www.bobzawalich.com/get-saved-sibelius-version-application/ Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Morriah - 30 Nov 12:46AM Hide picture Thanks Bob, I was asking about the current status of Sibelius, and thank you for your relevant reply. The first few “updates/upgrades” were, once again in my opinion only, very poor. And I don’t ever remember the need to pay for any/every update. That is until Avid resurrected Sib in the past 5(+-/) years, no less being asked to be a paid subscriber, just to receive bug fixes, and/or other routine, periodical updates. Part of my commitment to using this once great, ground breaking musical composition product, was the fair cost to stay loyal to them, and only them... because they were the best! Also, I could then benefit by spending money on, at the time, another unmatched, groundbreaking addition to my DAWs, GigaStudio/GigaSamples. Back then, if things were as they are now, the $2000 to $4000 p/y I was able to spend on those incredible sample collections, would have been limited by the $1200(+/-) subscription package currently offered to Sibelius users. Even Microsoft approaches their software tools, in a more user-considerate way. But now, with Avid’s business plan, it seems to be all about their corporate earnings, and allot less for an end-user’s budget. Why not just charge an occasional upgrade fee? In paying $1200(+/-) p/y through monthly subscription, I could save money by simply purchasing whatever the most current Sib release might be, at new user prices, and spend less. Тьфу! I guess I’m just disappointed, but again, that’s only me and my opinion, and I doubt Avid will worry about any individual user. (Неважно) -cMorr -Morriah Music Inc. Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by David - 30 Nov 12:52AM Hide picture The events of 2012 were Corporate Greed at its worst and a CEO at his worst. The damage that CEO did is irreparable. As far as Sibelius: I haven't had a crash in forever. The multi-edit stuff makes life so much easier. There have been little tiny improvements along the way that add up to a lot, and a far better user experience. The program is way better, no contest. With NotePerformer added, my loadup time for a score is zero. I didn't update for some time, when I finally did- it seems much clearer on my new monitor. Maybe it's my imagination but it really helps my eyes. There will always be some animosity toward AVID thanks to one idiot CEO. It seems at times that the animosity clouds peoples' judgement about the product and things are said like "There's been no improvement" etc. That's just not accurate, there has been a lot. And thanks goes to the small team that continues to run it. I'm sure it's not easy, when people (including myself) have been highly critical of the company, justifiably, but the team is making nice progress and the product is definitely much better now. -- Ultimate, Windows 10 Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by David - 30 Nov 01:26AM Hide picture One more thought as I am working on a chart for a gig tomorrow: I don't know what the feature is called, "smart note fill" maybe? If I change the rhythm in one note, the next note adjusts. Man is this helpful. This is the "little stuff" that really adds up. With the chart I am working on, it would have taken an hour to fix it "the old way". Now, 3 minutes. -- Ultimate, Windows 10 Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Bob Zawalich - 01 Dec 04:57AM Hide picture >I don't know what the feature is called, "smart note fill" maybe? I have heard it called "note erosion", which I rather like. It is an small but awesome feature that makes things like making dotted note pairs, once an onerous task, a piece of cake. -- Bob An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 2019+, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2019. Free Resources: Notating Harp Music In Sibelius: http://www.bobzawalich.com/harp-notation-in-sibelius/ Get Saved Sibelius Version: http://www.bobzawalich.com/get-saved-sibelius-version-application/ Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Morriah - 30 Nov 01:20AM Hide picture Thanks for your reply Peter, You share some potentially helpful points that I may have missed. - 1. Yes. I was serious. But by discontinuing the subscription option, I may have been partially unaware. I did not know that any free updates, outside of the included 1-year subscription that I earned in initial upgrade purchase, had been offered to all users... subscribed or not. I know I have not received any free since my free year expired, just over a year ago. - 2. In my opinion only, Dorico is still in developmental period, that will/must include an increase in user growth, for Steinberg to respond to end-user comments, input, and suggestions. - 3. I not think you need worry about who may, or may not, agree with your thoughts and opinions. Yours should be treated by Avid, along with all other user’s positive/negative thoughts, as the most important thing they have to address. I would love to look back and say that the “Sibelius Saga of 2012” never happened) But, unfortunately for all, it did. We’ll all survive with, or without, a perfect for all, release of Sibelius. It was just disheartening to see it drop so far, so fast, and hearing Avid employees say how great it they made it. But like I keep thinking, and typing))), these are just the opinions on one user... me! And to me, I can only speak for myself, because everyone else, has their own most-important-person to speak for... themselves))) Sincerely, -cMorr -Morriah Music Inc. Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Peter Roos - 30 Nov 07:36AM Hide picture cMorr: There are essentially two types of business models: - a subscription model where users pay a annual fee, and are then entitled to free updates / upgrades and tech support during that time. This is the route that Avid has chosen a few years back, and Avid is not the only one; Adobe and many companies have a similar model. - a "one time pay" model where you pay once for a major upgrade every year or every two years. This is what Avid Sibelius used to be, and Dorico / Steinberg still today. And there are many companies that follow this model. Dorico / Steinberg based their choice on a survey they did among their users, which showed that an overwhelming number of users preferred the "one time pay" model. And then there are many companies that offer the choice of either of these two. For example, East West offers a 'cloud subscription' model which apparenlty is very popular, and you can use their VSTs as long as you keep paying. Or you can buy their VSTs outright, and then you have a lifetime license. From a user perspective you have to make a determination: how valuable is the software to me, and is it worth the price to keep paying the subscription? In general I am not a huge fan of subscriptions, especially when I feel I get little value or where the costs are mushrooming out of control (eg Xfinity cable, where you pay a low monthly fee but end up paying hundreds of $$ per month and you are lock in for one or two years). But for Sibelius I feel the price is still reasonable. There are a lot of things I would like to change (high on my list is getting rid of that idiot that is currently occyping our White House), and there are things that are much more immportant than the price point of music software programs, but aside from things in my immediately environment usually there's not too much I can do about it, and getting upset about it just raising my blood pressure and makes me unhappy. I try to just enjoy the little things in life. When I have a nice looking score in Sibelius I say "ooh! that looks nice! and it sounds pretty ok too" and move on. -- Peter Roos www.summeroflovemusic.com IMDb: www.imdb.com/name/nm2039241 Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Mike Lyons - 30 Nov 10:43AM Hide picture Morriah, I, too, hated what Avid did to Sibelius in their early days. I haven't entirely forgiven them, but things are very much improved from what they were. I pay a small annual fee to renew my licence for updates. Given how much ot would cost to let the licence slide I think it is well worth it. $99 was the last charge, I think and this is worth it for the four or five updates every year and the major upgrades that come along every so often. If I decide it's too much (I'm a pensioner, after all) then I can stay with a fully functioning program (unlike the subscription model) forever. -- Win 10 Pro x64, Sib Ultimate 2019.7(build 1580) 2.6GHz Intel Core i7 9750H, 32GB,10TB (SSD + 7200rpm HDD), Scarlett 2i4, Sib 6.2,7.5, NotePerformer and others. Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. mike@mike-lyons.co.uk Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Pierre - 30 Nov 04:29PM (edited 01 Dec 09:18AM) Hide picture Hi y'all My two cents. I'm a newbie. I started with Sibelius Ultimate only last year, so I don't have the same history with the software as others. Way back I stumbled on the brothers at the Frankfurt Musikmesse. If I remember correctly, you had to buy a certain brand of computer to work with Sibelius (unicorn or something like that), maybe memory fails me. But anyway, I wasn't at all impressed with Sibelius at the time and went my way with other notation softwares. I think I've had my share of trying out notations programs, starting with Personal Composer in the eighties (developed by Jim Miller). Until last year I worked with a software that suited me for the last 25 years or so. Now that same software is evolving at becoming more of a DAW. Notation is still part of the package, but I feel many notation features are way behind. So I started looking for a new notation software. Sibelius Ultimate seemed to be best for me. I tried the Sibelius Ultimate demo from every angle for many months and made the jump last year. Well I do not regret my choice for one second. Yes it's not perfect (what is anyway ?) For me there's too much dialog boxes, but once you know your way around it's ok. But from solo to ensemble music, and jazz lead sheets, Sibelius lets me format scores and parts so easily. Everybody organizes differently his or her own workflow. I easily reassigned all key shortcuts to my liking, (even the keypad for note input). I easily made new symbols, new text, modified others to suit my own needs. Templates are easily made in conjunction with house styles and the use of wild cards with backstage infos and all the numerous features makes notation easier. And on top of that, if you had the icing on the cake with Bob Zawalich's plugins ! Well what can I say ? Add Note Performer and your sailing. I can understand a certain nostalgia for somebody who has used Sibelius since day one, seeing it change over the years. There's always room for improvements and I think the Sibelius team is there. Even if Avid is a big "machine", I've never had a problem with support it's always efficient. But hey that's just my personal view. -- Best of all Pierre Mac Catalina 10.15.1 Sibelius Ultimate 2019.9 Note Performer 3.3 www.pierrejulien.net Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Chris Crawley - 30 Nov 05:07PM (edited 30 Nov 05:10PM) Hide picture I think the thing that most stuck in Sibelius users' throats was the sacking of the London development team. Apart from the sheer lunacy of that decision as regards the immediate future of the program, with their departure went the very personal interaction between Daniel Spreadbury and users on this very forum, where his intimate knowledge of the program often resulted in instant expert advice. In addition, it meant the development team knew what was in the minds of a lot of Sibelius users and could translate that into new features or improvements. Since then, I'm afraid, such interaction has become very hit-and-miss. Even on Facebook, which you might expect would replace old-fashioned forums like this, there is only occasional input from Avid employees. -- Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico 2.2.10.1256, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 3.2, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100 cjcrawley@hotmail.com Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Rob Tuley - 02 Dec 02:31AM Hide picture > … with their departure went the very personal interaction between Daniel Spreadbury and users on this very forum, where his intimate knowledge of the program often resulted in instant expert advice. Nothing has changed, except the name of the notation app. The new forum conveniently displays the number of posts per user, so it's easy to calculate that Daniel is averaging more than 10 per day (and that is based on a a 7-day week). -- Rob Sib 4.1, Windows 10. Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Bob Zawalich - 03 Dec 02:29AM Hide picture Daniel is the man! -- Bob An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 2019+, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2019. Free Resources: Notating Harp Music In Sibelius: http://www.bobzawalich.com/harp-notation-in-sibelius/ Get Saved Sibelius Version: http://www.bobzawalich.com/get-saved-sibelius-version-application/ Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Robert Enns - 03 Dec 02:42PM (edited 03 Dec 02:45PM) Hide picture If you don’t recognize extraordinary employees like Daniel, and Avid did not, then you don’t deserve loyalty from your customers. -- Rob Win 10 64 bit, 3.1 GHz, 8 Gigs RAM Sibelius 2019, Sibelius Sounds 7.1.2, NotePerformer 3, GPO4, GPO5 Photoscore 8.0.4 Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by graham - 08 Dec 09:26PM Hide picture As one of the early and long term users of Sibelius 1.4 and onwards to 2019.x I deplored the unceremonious sacking of Daniel and his merry men. Was Dorico his vision for Sibelius 20xx? Had he and team been allowed to stay I wonder if this is what sibelius may well have become? Back to top | All threads

Re: Has there be a quality update to Avid’s Sibelius yet? Posted by Laurence Payne - 09 Dec 08:24AM Hide picture No, Sibelius couldn't have developed into Dorico. The basic structures are too different. Back to top | All threads