'OT - NP question'

Messages in this thread

OT - NP question - Adrian Drover, 15 Feb 10:56AM
     Re: OT - NP question - Laurence Payne, 15 Feb 11:04AM
         Re: OT - NP question - Robin Walker, 15 Feb 11:12AM
             Re: OT - NP question - Adrian Drover, 15 Feb 03:16PM
                 Re: OT - NP question - Laurence Payne, 15 Feb 06:19PM
                 Re: OT - NP question - Robin Walker, 15 Feb 06:40PM
                     Re: OT - NP question - Adrian Drover, 15 Feb 07:54PM
                         Re: OT - NP question - Robin Walker, 15 Feb 09:23PM
                             Re: OT - NP question - Adrian Drover, 16 Feb 09:53AM
                                 Re: OT - NP question - Robin Walker, 16 Feb 11:38AM

OT - NP question
Posted by Adrian Drover - 15 Feb 10:56AM
Changing from trumpet to flügelhorn on the same staff. I can do this with an instrument change. But I figured that as trumpet & flügel have the same transposition, it should be simpler to do this with a program change in the playback dictionary. The NP program # for flügel is 0,0,72. This works fine until there is an articulation mark or end of slur attached to a note. Then it returns to the staff default of trumpet. Does anyone know why this is so and if there is any workaround.
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Re: OT - NP question
Posted by Laurence Payne - 15 Feb 11:04AM
So it isn't simpler that way. Use an Instrument Change?
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Re: OT - NP question
Posted by Robin Walker - 15 Feb 11:12AM
It is clearly wrong to use a MIDI program change. Sibelius maintains a "SoundID" for each staff, that is initially determined by the instrument definition. Articulations that affect SoundID will generate new SoundIDs based on the one maintained for the staff, and then a matching sound for the new articulated SoundID will be sought from the sample library, completely over-riding your earlier MIDI program change.

--
Sibelius 2018.1/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.8.2, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.
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Re: OT - NP question
Posted by Adrian Drover - 15 Feb 03:16PM
Posted by Robin Walker - 15 Feb 11:12
It is clearly wrong to use a MIDI program change.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But wait just a cotton-pickin' minute. If it is clearly wrong, Robin, why does Sib (even in 2018) include 'Program Change' as an Effect option in the playback dictionary, and when selected asks for Program # (0-127), Bank High (0-127) & Bank Low (0-127). Surely, if it is wrong to use it, why is it there.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Posted by Laurence Payne - 15 Feb 11:04
So it isn't simpler that way. Use an Instrument Change?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But it would be simpler, Laurence, if it worked. All you would need to do would be to type "To flügelhorn" or "To trumpet" or "To cornet" in the staff and the change would be made w'out having to go to Home/Instruments/Change and hunting for the instrument you want. I know you're not a fan of the ribbon. You could back me up on this. OK, it takes a bit of setting up, but once in your template score, it should take effect, simply & easily.
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Re: OT - NP question
Posted by Laurence Payne - 15 Feb 06:19PM

> But it would be simpler, Laurence, if it worked. All you would need to do would be to type "To flügelhorn" or "To trumpet" or "To cornet" in the staff and the change would be made w'out having to go to Home/Instruments/Change and hunting for the instrument you want. I know you're not a fan of the ribbon. You could back me up on this. OK, it takes a bit of setting up, but once in your template score, it should take effect, simply & easily.
>


The Change Instrument page was just as messy to navigate before the Ribbon! But at least Change Instrument provides both the 'To Flügelhorn' early warning and the 'Flügelhorn' label at the first note. That saves a bit of work. I guess this is just another case of 'Why doesn't Sibelius do it THIS way?' - 'Because it does it THAT way'.
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Re: OT - NP question
Posted by Robin Walker - 15 Feb 06:40PM
> If it is clearly wrong, Robin, why does Sib include 'Program Change' as an Effect option in the playback dictionary,
> and when selected asks for Program # (0-127), Bank High (0-127) & Bank Low (0-127).
> Surely, if it is wrong to use it, why is it there.

My statement that "it is clearly wrong" to use a MIDI Program Change was given in the context of your question, in which you reveal that you are using a player device (NotePerformer) controlled by a Sibelius SoundSet file.

When a SoundSet file is in use, then Sibelius is in charge of all MIDI parameters, such as channel number, program number, and banks, and it is clearly wrong for the user to attempt to interfere.

The facilities for setting MIDI program numbers, and banks, are providing for those who are manipulating a MIDI instrument or VST player device directly, without the benefit of a SoundSet file, nor even a Manual Soundset. In those cases, all you have to control playback are the bare-metal MIDI parameters, and keyswitch notes. This was the hell that the Sibelius SoundWorld system was invented to save us from. Be grateful for these mercies.

--
Sibelius 2018.1/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.8.2, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.
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Re: OT - NP question
Posted by Adrian Drover - 15 Feb 07:54PM
I wasn't using MIDI program numbers, Robin. NP has its own program numbers in the same format as MIDI (MSB,LSB,Prog#). My XGM number for flügel is 0,96,57. NP's number is 0,0,72. That number actually works in the playback dictionary's program change, tho' only until there is an articulation in the note row. It also works when typed in the staff after ~P. Maybe I'm the first user to have discovered this.
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Re: OT - NP question
Posted by Robin Walker - 15 Feb 09:23PM
> I wasn't using MIDI program numbers, Robin.
> NP has its own program numbers in the same format as MIDI (MSB,LSB,Prog#).

They are MIDI Program Numbers. Every player device has its own Program Numbers. Only "General MIDI" attempts to standardise the assignment of numbers to sounds.

--
Sibelius 2018.1/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.8.2, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.
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Re: OT - NP question
Posted by Adrian Drover - 16 Feb 09:53AM
OK, thanx, Robin, for the explanation.

I have another question.

In v7.1.3, when I go to Edit Instrument, Best Sound, Choose, I get a pointer labelled Note Performer (which is what I'm using) which leads me to just one instance of flügelhorn complete with its MIDI number (which is all I need to see). And I get the same deal if I'm using my Yamaha XG.

But when I take the same path in v2018, I get a general menu which includes 21 instances of flügelhorn (w'out MIDI number) but including a whole gang of mutes and articulations (why do I need these?) which each in turn have up to another four sub menus. I haven't counted, but there must be around fifty or more variations of flügelhorn sound to choose from when I only need one (the one that NP or Yamaha supplies).
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Re: OT - NP question
Posted by Robin Walker - 16 Feb 11:38AM
Sibelius File -> Preferences -> Playback -> Display, select "Program names" instead of "Sound IDs".

This is not a Sibelius version issue, just a Preference setting: the same would happen in 7.1.3.

--
Sibelius 2018.1/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.8.2, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.
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Messages in this thread

OT - NP question - Adrian Drover, 15 Feb 10:56AM
     Re: OT - NP question - Laurence Payne, 15 Feb 11:04AM
         Re: OT - NP question - Robin Walker, 15 Feb 11:12AM
             Re: OT - NP question - Adrian Drover, 15 Feb 03:16PM
                 Re: OT - NP question - Laurence Payne, 15 Feb 06:19PM
                 Re: OT - NP question - Robin Walker, 15 Feb 06:40PM
                     Re: OT - NP question - Adrian Drover, 15 Feb 07:54PM
                         Re: OT - NP question - Robin Walker, 15 Feb 09:23PM
                             Re: OT - NP question - Adrian Drover, 16 Feb 09:53AM
                                 Re: OT - NP question - Robin Walker, 16 Feb 11:38AM