'Changing the time signature leaves orphan barlines'

Messages in this thread

Changing the time signature leaves orphan barlines - Mike Lyons, 13 Feb 07:46AM
     Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan b... - Adrian Drover, 13 Feb 08:02AM
         Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan b... - Mike Lyons, 13 Feb 10:53PM
             Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan b... - Bob Zawalich, 13 Feb 11:33PM
                 Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan b... - Mike Lyons, 15 Feb 06:25AM
                     Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan b... - Jody Hughes, 15 Feb 10:25AM

Changing the time signature leaves orphan barlines
Posted by Mike Lyons - 13 Feb 07:46AM
Hi all,

I was working on a piece this morning, creating a worksheet for a pupil when i realised I had forgotten to insert a TS change from 4/4 to 3/4. I selected the bars (which were filled with crotchet rests) and pressed T and made the change. When I closed the dialog I found that the final and double barlines had been separated from the normal barlines and left mid bar! Surely such things should move like normal barlines?

--
Win 10 Pro x64, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.7.0 NotePerformer, GPO4 & 5, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC,
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.
Attachment moving barlines.png (113K)
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Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan barlines
Posted by Adrian Drover - 13 Feb 08:02AM
Special barlines are attached to beats rather than regular barlines. Is this the problem?
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Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan barlines
Posted by Mike Lyons - 13 Feb 10:53PM
No, I never use special 'normal' barlines. These were just ordinary Final barlines. I have never noticed this behaviour before.

Can anyone confirm whether this happens for them?

--
Win 10 Pro x64, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.7.0 NotePerformer, GPO4 & 5, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC,
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.
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Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan barlines
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 13 Feb 11:33PM (edited 13 Feb 11:37PM)
Could you post an actual score that does this? Were any of the special barlines (double/final) not at the end of the bar when it was 4/4?

That would be my guess as to what is happening here. Barlines that are mid-bar do not behave the same way that barlines at the end of a bar do. They are kind of line a bit of text, and they will get moved.

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2018.
For plugin lookup and categories see https://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
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Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan barlines
Posted by Mike Lyons - 15 Feb 06:25AM (edited 15 Feb 06:57AM)
Thanks for the thought, Bob, but even were I to use them 'mid-bar' it's more usual for me to split the bar. These were definitely at the end of the bar and there was nothing non-standard about them.

Set up 16 bars in 4/4
Place double/final barlines every 4 bars and show crotchet rests - this might be for a worksheet or somesuch.
Select the last 8 bars and change the TS to 3/4 re-writing the bars but no cautionary.

The double/final barlines end up in the middle of bars. It happens in sib 6, too.

Call me pernickity, but I would expect barlines to behave like barlines!

--
Win 10 Pro x64, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.7.0 NotePerformer, GPO4 & 5, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC,
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.
Attachment Testing barlines.sib (32K)
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Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan barlines
Posted by Jody Hughes - 15 Feb 10:25AM
Hi there

In Sibelius terms, any barline that doesn't appear automatically – that you add manually – is called a 'special barline'. It's bad terminology but difficult to avoid. They are both 'standard' = commonly in use, and 'special' because that's what they are called.

You're correctly describing how Sibelius works in this area, and it's not a bug, nor (I feel certain) will it be changed.

On the face of it, it's reasonable to expect a special barline to stay attached to the default barline where it was placed, but it is best that it doesn't, because it avoids some obviously senseless outcomes. Here's a common example:

I have a 32-bar piece with a central repeated section enclosing bars 9-16. It is in 12/8, but I decide after note entry to rebar it in 6/8. If the repeat signs stayed enclosing the same bars (9-16), they would be enclosing the wrong music – the music that used to be in bars 5-8. The music to be repeated is now in bars 17-32 of a 64-bar piece. Sibelius correctly keeps the repeat signs with the enclosed music.

As you need the 'music' (in your case, just the number of crotchet rests) to change to fit the new bars, that's a separate task, not something that changing the time signature should automatically do.

I hope that helps
Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
Sibelius 6.2 – 8.7.2 on a Mac running OS 10.13.3
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Messages in this thread

Changing the time signature leaves orphan barlines - Mike Lyons, 13 Feb 07:46AM
     Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan b... - Adrian Drover, 13 Feb 08:02AM
         Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan b... - Mike Lyons, 13 Feb 10:53PM
             Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan b... - Bob Zawalich, 13 Feb 11:33PM
                 Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan b... - Mike Lyons, 15 Feb 06:25AM
                     Re: Changing the time signature leaves orphan b... - Jody Hughes, 15 Feb 10:25AM