OT: Bagpipes Posted by Dave P-B - 04 Jan 02:27PM (edited 04 Jan 02:36PM) Hide picture Hi there, Australia Day is almost upon us, when Australians celebrate their national identity by basking in the sunshine, wearing little-to-nothing, drinking plenty and singing Australian songs that they feel best sum up the nation's achievements and aspirations. So for the grand finale concert, it falls upon me to write "The Finale Medley" including AC/DC's "Long Way To The Top". As a special bonus, the producers have organised for pipers to play the bagpipe solo, which I humbly attach. I've been reading a few articles on writing for bagpipe transposition and I'll be honest. The more I read, the more confused I become. Can anyone help me please? The pipers have requested parts in A and Bb. (Usually whenever I have an instrument query, I have plenty of numbers in my book but alas, no pipers). And here in Sibelius-land, we can smugly talk of transpositions and edit instruments, knowing that very few people will know of what we speak. So, can anyone help? Please be nice. Remember that the most contact Australians have had with Scotland is when they saw Mel Gibson in Braveheart. We're sorry. Thanks in advance, Dave -- Sib 8.5.1 MacPro, 16GB RAM, OS 10.11.6 http://www.davepb.com Attachment Long Way To The Top Bagpipe Solo.sib (38K) Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Adrian Drover - 04 Jan 05:16PM (edited 04 Jan 05:18PM) Hide picture Living in Scotland and occasionally having to write for this instrument from hell combined with orchestra, I can verify that it is most confusing. Its scale is basically Eb (with a couple of quarter tones thrown in) but written in D, often w'out any flats or sharps in either the key or accidentals. I'm guessing that your melody would be transposed up a semitone into Bb. I would keep the Bb key sig to be safe. From what I understand, it makes no difference to the player either way. Happy Australia day. Don't forget the ear plugs. Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Bob Zawalich - 04 Jan 06:00PM (edited 05 Jan 10:18PM) Hide picture There is a set of plugins I wrote for bagpipes back in 2011 or so called Bagpipes Suite, category Composing Tools. As part of the zip file there is a PDF file describing both how to use the plugins and more relevantly,how to notate bagpipes, including pipes in ensembles. It may be overkill and it may be irrelevant, but it might be worth having a look at. I am not a piper but I was working with some at the time. -- Bob An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2017. For plugin lookup and categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Dave P-B - 05 Jan 07:32AM (edited 05 Jan 07:58AM) Hide picture Great thank you Adrian and Bob. I have just walked in the door and will look at this again tonight, armed with your expertise. I'll let you know how I fare. I also asked another arranger in Sydney who came back with the advice "Whatever you do, they'll complain about everything." Cheers, Dave -- Sib 8.5.1 MacPro, 16GB RAM, OS 10.11.6 http://www.davepb.com Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Adrian Drover - 05 Jan 10:00AM Hide picture The attached is a scan from Forsyth Orchestration (strangely of Scottish parentage). It will probably throw you into more confusion than you already suffer. The range and drones shown are as written for the instrument, but actually sound a semitone higher. Tunes attempted to replicate modern scale temperament are normally played in keys close to Eb or Bb sounding, but written as "white" notes one step lower. Tunes written on a pentatonic scale are the most successful when the pipes are combined with orchestra or band (e.g. Auld Lang Syne, Skye Boat Song) thus avoiding quartertone tuning. Attachment bagpipe.JPG.jpg (283K) Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Dave P-B - 05 Jan 11:18AM Hide picture Thanks Adrian. What a fabulously written chapter. Cheers, Dave -- Sib 8.5.1 MacPro, 16GB RAM, OS 10.11.6 http://www.davepb.com Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Dave P-B - 05 Jan 11:29AM (edited 06 Jan 06:18AM) Hide picture Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by James - 05 Jan 03:25PM (edited 05 Jan 03:33PM) Hide picture I like the sound when the bag under their arm runs out of air and it sounds like a cow dying. I would notate this using the fall on keypad 4. Plus I'm sure they would appreciate the annotation: "Die, cow, die!" ;^) -- Mac OS 10.12 Sierra Sibelius 6.2 Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Bob Zawalich - 05 Jan 10:19PM Hide picture Sorry - I have corrected the post that gave the wrong location. -- Bob An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2017. For plugin lookup and categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Dave P-B - 06 Jan 02:01AM (edited 06 Jan 06:18AM) Hide picture No worries Bob. Your accompanying bagpipe documentation is nothing short of stunning. I'm still working my way through the first page. I have attached the 8 bar bagpipe solo from "Long Way To The Top". Of course, to confuse matters, the original recording is in Bb concert, while we'll be playing in A concert. With respect, may I ask both you and/or Adrian if this passes muster, or will there be chanters at 50 paces? mòran taing Dave -- Sib 8.5.1 MacPro, 16GB RAM, OS 10.11.6 http://www.davepb.com Attachment Long Way To The Top Bagpipe Solo CHECK.sib (38K) Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Adrian Drover - 06 Jan 09:16AM (edited 06 Jan 10:32AM) Hide picture Take a listen to these: Scotland the Brave https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSH0eRKq1lE in Bb Amazing Grace https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8AeV8Jbx6M in Eb Auld Lang Syne https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to1xT93IlUI in Bb Mull of Kintyre https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5626WzsfMw in D The first three are either in Eb or Bb. Notice the flat sounding leading note in Scotland the Brave. In the fourth one the pipes are in D. This has obviously been electronically shifted down half a tone to suit Paul McCartney's accompaniment. I have found no reliable guide to writing for pipes and orchestra that I can recommend. All I can offer is that the written chanter range is from G4 to A5, all on natural ("white") notes, and sounds closest to the modern Eb major scale, range Ab4 to Bb5 with dominant (Bb) drones. See attached. Attachment bagpipe range.JPG.jpg (45K) Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Dave P-B - 06 Jan 11:39AM Hide picture Adrian - you're a champion. Much appreciated thank you. I think your attached bagpipe range answers my main question which is "Can the bagpipes play the solo down a semitone from the original?" and I fear the answer is "nay ye cannae do that laddie". The notes required for the solo in concert A (instead of the original concert Bb) do not seem to exist. The YouTube links you sent really provide the clearest answer. Always trust your ears and my ears say that the bagpipes attempting to play in the key of concert A instead of concert Bb is going to sound even more terrible than usual. Cheers, Dave -- Sib 8.5.1 MacPro, 16GB RAM, OS 10.11.6 http://www.davepb.com Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Adrian Drover - 06 Jan 02:35PM Hide picture There is one solution, Dave. Put the pipers on a fast moving open top train and record while they are moving away from you. Q. Why do pipers always play on the march. A. To try and get away from the terrifying noise. G'day, Ade. Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by James - 06 Jan 04:06PM Hide picture I think it is important for bagpipe players to remember that all the jokes cannot be about the contrabassoon. -- Mac OS 10.12 Sierra Sibelius 6.2 Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Tony Wakefield - 06 Jan 11:00PM Hide picture "Put y' hand up ma kilt". "Ooh Jock, it`s gruesome". "Put y` hand up again it`s gruesomemore . . . . . . ! -- Sibelius 6/7/8. Win7. Note Performer, with various other no longer in use programs & audio. Web:http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/tonywakefield Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Dave P-B - 07 Jan 12:36AM (edited 07 Jan 12:37AM) Hide picture I fear this thread is running away. And I thought it was only viola players and trombonists who copped the flak. -- Sib 8.5.1 MacPro, 16GB RAM, OS 10.11.6 http://www.davepb.com Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Adrian Drover - 07 Jan 09:45AM Hide picture Don't mess with trombonists!!! ;-) Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Dave P-B - 07 Jan 09:47AM Hide picture Oh - it's like shooting fish in a barrel. -- Sib 8.5.1 MacPro, 16GB RAM, OS 10.11.6 http://www.davepb.com Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Dave P-B - 08 Jan 02:26AM (edited 08 Jan 02:27AM) Hide picture Re Adrian's bagpipes guide: Acknowledgement for Adrian from my fellow Australian cohort. "Perfection. I think I’m going to insert this as a graphic and stick it on all bagpipe charts I do in future. :-). I’m not even kidding." -- Sib 8.5.1 MacPro, 16GB RAM, OS 10.11.6 http://www.davepb.com Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Adrian Drover - 08 Jan 07:38AM Hide picture Then I just hope that my info is near enough accurate. We have an establishment here in Glasgow called the Piping Centre. For many years I thought it was a firm of plumbers. Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Neil Macintyre - 10 Jan 10:04PM (edited 10 Jan 10:50PM) Hide picture This, I suppose: https://www.thepipingcentre.co.uk/ Back to top | All threads

Re: OT: Bagpipes Posted by Dave P-B - 27 Jan 07:05AM Hide picture Hi, My thanks to all who helped me here. Concert was last night. Survived pipers performance unscathed. Cheers, Dave -- Sib 8.5.1 MacPro, 16GB RAM, OS 10.11.6 http://www.davepb.com Back to top | All threads