'Parentheses'

Messages in this thread

Parentheses - William444, 30 Nov 01:54PM
     Re: Parentheses - Robin Walker, 30 Nov 01:59PM
         Re: Parentheses - William444, 30 Nov 03:25PM
             Re: Parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 30 Nov 07:34PM
                 Re: Parentheses - Jeremy Hughes, 30 Nov 09:49PM
                     Re: Parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 01 Dec 06:37AM
                         Re: Parentheses - William444, 01 Dec 10:23AM
                             Re: Parentheses - Jeremy Hughes, 01 Dec 12:27PM
                                 Re: Parentheses - William444, 01 Dec 12:38PM
                                     Re: Parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 02 Dec 11:46PM
                                         Re: Parentheses - Michael Kent-Davies, 04 Dec 11:12PM
                                             Re: Parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 05 Dec 12:31AM
                                                 Re: Parentheses - William444, 05 Dec 08:02AM
                                                     Re: Parentheses - Jeremy Hughes, 05 Dec 09:34AM
                                                         Re: Parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 06 Dec 11:27AM
                                                             Re: Parentheses - William444, 06 Dec 01:06PM
                                                                 Re: Parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 06 Dec 10:03PM

Parentheses
Posted by William444 - 30 Nov 01:54PM
Hello everyone.

Is there a way to put more than one note in parentheses?

See for example bar 2 of the attached Chaconne where the double grace notes are optional.

Many thanks,

Will.

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by Robin Walker - 30 Nov 01:59PM
There was no attachment. On this forum, attachments must be (a) less than 1 MByte in size, and (b) of types .sib or .png only. Often .jpg will not work.

--
Sibelius 8.7/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.8.2, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by William444 - 30 Nov 03:25PM
Apologies, Robin, try this.
Attachment Capture.PNG.png (76K)

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 30 Nov 07:34PM (edited 04 Dec 11:50PM)
The parens in the keypad only work for a single note or chord. 2 ways I could see to accomplish what you want are:

1. Use Text parentheses (or maybe symbols) with Magnetic Layout turned off, and position them around the notes. The disadvantages of these are that they will not move if the pitch changes (bad especially in transposing instruments), and Sib will not make room for them in the note spacing.

2. Create 2 new Notehead types, one with a leading paren and one with a trailing paren, and change the notehead types where needed. You would need to create symbols with the notehead and paren first, then use that to create the notehead.

The problems with this, other than a bit of setup time, is that you would have to reproduce these in any other scores, either by using a House Style or Manuscript Paper, or, probably simpler, by copying notes with that style into another score.

One problem I have not figured out how to deal with though, is that in the close paren case, the stem will attach outside the paren if the stem is up. Not sure if there is a workaround for that.

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2017.
For plugin lookup and categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install
Attachment snap1.png (28K)

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by Jeremy Hughes - 30 Nov 09:49PM
Hi

Make a line (as a variant of "Line") with zero width that shows ( at the start, and ) at the end. Use the symbols called "Small (" and "Small )", as you're using them for grace notes.

It is eminently draggable, and will transpose with notes.

If you're going to use it on notes other than grace notes, you can set the default position for it* so that it will be created with useful horizontal positions, but this won't happen for grace notes (you'll have to manually position them.)

*Horizontal position relative to note = -0.81sp; and Horizontal position of right hand end = 1.88sp are good starting positions. The vertical position will always need manual adjustment, so there's not much point in changing it from the default.

Hope that helps
Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
Sibelius 6.2 – 8.6 on a Mac running OS X 10.10.5
Attachment Pic 2017-11-30 at 21.48.35.png (16K)

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 01 Dec 06:37AM
Good one, Jeremy. I would not have thought that one up!

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2017.
For plugin lookup and categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by William444 - 01 Dec 10:23AM
Many thanks, both.

Jeremy, that's a bit advanced for me and I can't see what you're doing.

If you have a few minutes to spare, perhaps you could explain it step by step.

Thanks, both, for taking the trouble.

Will.

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by Jeremy Hughes - 01 Dec 12:27PM
It's easier to make one and supply it in a score. Copy and paste it from this score to the one where you need it. It will then appear in the line menu in that score.

If you want it available for future scores, you can repeat this procedure, or export a House Style from a score containing it, and import that house style into new scores.

(This file has been back-saved to Sib 6 format in case anyone wants it who is not using the latest version.)

cheers
Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
Sibelius 6.2 – 8.6 on a Mac running OS X 10.10.5
Attachment LineofParenthesis.sib (102K)

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by William444 - 01 Dec 12:38PM
Crumbs, I would never have thought of that. It works very well.

I've copied in and exported it to a House Style as you suggest.

Thanks so much, Jeremy, for taking the trouble.

Nice day.

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 02 Dec 11:46PM (edited 03 Dec 01:45AM)
If you have such a line defined *and used* in your score, the Line Between Notes plugin can be adjusted to lay it out pretty nicely onto 2 selected notes.

(You must have a copy of the line actually in the score for it to appear in the list. You can add a temporary line and delete it later if you wish).

The line will appear in the list of lines. Go to the Adjust distances, and set the X offset to about -.66 and the right X to 1.5 spaces, and it should be pretty good. Adjust to taste. It turns off Magnetic Layout for you too.

You will need to use different settings for grace notes.

If you make these changes you will probably want to reset to defaults at some point, because it will remember the settings across Sibelius sessions.


--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2017.
For plugin lookup and categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install
Attachment snap1.png (187K)

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by Michael Kent-Davies - 04 Dec 11:12PM
Blimey, well done guys - very smart solution!
--
Music Teacher etc.
Mac OS 10.12 / 3.1 GHz MacBookPro 1TB SSD
Sibelius 8.7.1

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 05 Dec 12:31AM
On testing, I noticed that while the line will move with the notes when you transpose notes with the Transpose command or with the arrow keys, the line does not move if you have a transposing instrument and go to the parts. See the screenshot.

If you have this problem, about the only fix I can think of is to change the line to show only in the score, then go to the part and add another line that shows only in the part.

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2017.
For plugin lookup and categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install
Attachment snap1.png (80K)

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by William444 - 05 Dec 08:02AM
Thanks, Bob. I noticed this myself but didn't think of your solution.

It's not really an issue as I doubt these notes are going to change, but thanks enormously for the thought you put into this.

I'm a little surprised there isn't a simple fix for this as standard in Sibelius, I often want to bracket a phrase or a few notes to show them either as optional or editorial.

Is there a way to communicate this to the folks at Avid?

Thanks again.

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by Jeremy Hughes - 05 Dec 09:34AM (edited 05 Dec 09:36AM)
Hm, okay, I didn't try that. See attached (v8.6 file) for attempt number two.

Here, I've cannibalised the four jazz articulations (scoop, fall, plop and doit), replacing them with the start and end small parens. A bit of tweaking of the placement of them, and they are pretty stable and useful.

I used scoop and fall for full size, and plop and doit for grace notes, because for some reason the vertical placement of the scoop on a grace note was different, and the horizontal placement of the fall on a grace note was too tight to the notehead.

Score attached. You can't copy and paste these into an existing score, but they may appear if you do a House Style import. (I haven't tried that, and I seem to remember that in some situations, cannibalised existing symbols can not be correctly imported.) The best way is to replicate what I've done.

If this seems a better solution, let me know and I'll try to write up the step-by-step process.

PS As for the normal scoop and plop, you have to manually move them out of the way of accidentals.

Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
Sibelius 6.2 – 8.6 on a Mac running OS X 10.10.5
Attachments Parentheses2.sib (38K), Pic 2017-12-05 at 09.35.10.png (28K)

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 06 Dec 11:27AM
As an experiment, I tried creating a clone of the Slide line in 8.7, where that line is a magnetic gliss line, and that adjusted for transposing instruments.

Unfortunately it played back, even if I shut off the line in the playback dictionary.

It is really hard to come up with something without side effects. If I have to do this just once in a while I might just put in text or symbol parens and adjust by hand as needed...

Symbols work like lines in that they transpose with notes but not for a transposing instrument. Text parens are easier to size but they do not transpose at all. It is always something.

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2017.
For plugin lookup and categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by William444 - 06 Dec 01:06PM
Thanks, Bob.

Yes, I see what you mean.

I've come to the same conclusion myself (as it's not a regular requirement, use a symbol and tweak by hand.

How do you communicate requirements like this to the folks at Avid?

Will.

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Re: Parentheses
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 06 Dec 10:03PM
Someone at Avid should be at least looking through this forum and should notice this. Otherwise you can submit bug reports at IdeaScale.

I thought there was a pinned post about where to report bugs at the top of the forum but I do not see it any more.

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2017.
For plugin lookup and categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install

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Messages in this thread

Parentheses - William444, 30 Nov 01:54PM
     Re: Parentheses - Robin Walker, 30 Nov 01:59PM
         Re: Parentheses - William444, 30 Nov 03:25PM
             Re: Parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 30 Nov 07:34PM
                 Re: Parentheses - Jeremy Hughes, 30 Nov 09:49PM
                     Re: Parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 01 Dec 06:37AM
                         Re: Parentheses - William444, 01 Dec 10:23AM
                             Re: Parentheses - Jeremy Hughes, 01 Dec 12:27PM
                                 Re: Parentheses - William444, 01 Dec 12:38PM
                                     Re: Parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 02 Dec 11:46PM
                                         Re: Parentheses - Michael Kent-Davies, 04 Dec 11:12PM
                                             Re: Parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 05 Dec 12:31AM
                                                 Re: Parentheses - William444, 05 Dec 08:02AM
                                                     Re: Parentheses - Jeremy Hughes, 05 Dec 09:34AM
                                                         Re: Parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 06 Dec 11:27AM
                                                             Re: Parentheses - William444, 06 Dec 01:06PM
                                                                 Re: Parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 06 Dec 10:03PM