'Whole Note placement'

Messages in this thread

Whole Note placement - tom_shepherd, 27 Nov 09:14AM
     Re: Whole Note placement - Robin Walker, 27 Nov 09:55AM
         Re: Whole Note placement - Mike Lyons, 27 Nov 04:15PM
             Re: Whole Note placement - Adrian Drover, 27 Nov 05:39PM
                 Re: Whole Note placement - Richard Mix, 30 Nov 05:43AM
                     Re: Whole Note placement - Adrian Drover, 30 Nov 09:34AM
                         Re: Whole Note placement - Richard Mix, 30 Nov 10:24AM
                     Re: Whole Note placement - Mike Lyons, 30 Nov 11:26AM
                         Re: Whole Note placement - Adrian Drover, 30 Nov 01:58PM
                             Re: Whole Note placement - Richard Mix, 01 Dec 06:24AM
                                 Re: Whole Note placement - Mike Lyons, 01 Dec 07:35AM
                                     Re: Whole Note placement - Richard Mix, 01 Dec 07:54AM
                                         Re: Whole Note placement - Mike Lyons, 01 Dec 11:58AM

Whole Note placement
Posted by tom_shepherd - 27 Nov 09:14AM
Hello,

I wonder if someone can assist me.

I'm needing to make some single bars with whole notes that are all the same size.

I've created a template with many single bars and the whole note rest centres perfectly in the bar.

However when Input a whole note (see screen shot 2 - whole notes) the whole note centres off to the left but I need the note to be in the middle of the bar (like the rest) and I need the spacing to be the same in every bar.

I've tried dragging (which lengthens the bar) and I've tried adjusting things in Appearance -> Not Spacing Rule (but without much luck)

I've also reached the forums and I can't find a solution.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Sibelius 8.4.2 BUILD 231
MacBook Pro (Retina, 13-inch, Early 2015)

Kind regards

Tom Shepherd
Attachment 2 - WHOLE NOTES.png (329K)

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Re: Whole Note placement
Posted by Robin Walker - 27 Nov 09:55AM
There was only one screen shot attached - of rests, not notes.

The rests shown are NOT whole note rests: they are bar rests (unmeasured). A bar rest is always centred in the bar.

A measured whole note rest would have been positioned at the same place as the whole notes themselves: at the start of the bar, on beat 1.

Positioning whole notes or measured whole note rests in the centre of the bar is non-standard notation, and not automatically supported by Sibelius. If you wish to centre a whole note in its bar, then you would need to offset the note by changing its X-pos in the Inspector.

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Re: Whole Note placement
Posted by Mike Lyons - 27 Nov 04:15PM
Is this for a worksheet? There are note flashcards in the built-in teaching materials worksheet creator. Is the attached like something you are after?

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Attachment lines.sib (31K)

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Re: Whole Note placement
Posted by Adrian Drover - 27 Nov 05:39PM
Whole notes are not meant to be placed in the middle of the measure. In 4/4 time, they are placed on the first beat of the measure, because that is where they start to play.

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Re: Whole Note placement
Posted by Richard Mix - 30 Nov 05:43AM (edited 30 Nov 05:45AM)
"...not meant to be..." Well, not according to many people's notions, but check out Stanley's Op. 5: even the minims (!) are centered.

I had thought this thread would be about the need to resort to the inspector when showing unisons with a second voice.
Attachment Screen Shot 2017-11-29 at 9.39.39 PM.png (60K)

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Re: Whole Note placement
Posted by Adrian Drover - 30 Nov 09:34AM
Yes, very confusing when the notes between staves don't line up vertically beat for beat, and very sloppy in some hand written parts I have read (or tried to read).

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Re: Whole Note placement
Posted by Richard Mix - 30 Nov 10:24AM
It takes a little getting used to; I can see a case for duplicating a neat 18c appearance in some circumstances. I imagine one would hide a tied half-note and edit note heads for the visible (stemless) minims/semibreves.

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Re: Whole Note placement
Posted by Mike Lyons - 30 Nov 11:26AM (edited 30 Nov 11:27AM)
> "...not meant to be..." Well, not according to many people's notions, but check out Stanley's Op. 5: even the minims (!) are centered.
>
Logically, there is a difference between the small block used to indicate a whole note rest and the one used to indicate a whole bar rest. While they may look the same physically, their position in the bar tells you what they are meant to represent. Quoting a single example of a composer whose hand-written score was created before the notation was fully standardized doesn't really make your point.

Logically, a whole note in 4/4 starts at the beginning of the bar. The staff isn't just about pitch, it's also about relative position in time. If you just plonk a semibreve in the middle of the bar, you are not paying attention to the vertical structure of the music. Even Renaissance polyphony makes an effort to line things up vertically!
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Re: Whole Note placement
Posted by Adrian Drover - 30 Nov 01:58PM
Apart from the horizontal positioning of whole and half notes in Richard's screenshot, there are other oddities. The ties in the top voice are on the wrong side of the noteheads, and the down stems on half notes in the 2nd voice are on the wrong side of the noteheads, even tho' those on the quarters are correct. Strange that the D half note in the lower staff is placed horizontally correct while the others are offset. Glad I don't have to read this undisciplined style of music.

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Re: Whole Note placement
Posted by Richard Mix - 01 Dec 06:24AM
To be sure, the original comment was about contemporary practice, but Mike, that is not a ms. but rather an engraved edition and representative of a standard practice that persisted well into the 19th century; if one loves playing from facsimiles as much as I do, one sucks it up. And what kind of dig is "even Renaissance..." supposed to be? :-P

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Re: Whole Note placement
Posted by Mike Lyons - 01 Dec 07:35AM
Just that in the Renaissance, the practices that we accept today were only just being formed. Some of the scores I have had to read from would definitely classed as 'non-standard' notation! :-D

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Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.

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Re: Whole Note placement
Posted by Richard Mix - 01 Dec 07:54AM
You've made me curious about the origins of this style; thank you, I think ;-) Frescobaldi's engraved editions align chords vertically, but Fiori Musicali uses movable type and yet has centered notes! In Simrock's prints of earlier Beethoven sonatas there's a kind of compromise, with vertical chords, but perfectly centered whole notes when all voices move together. JSB's Ricercar a 6 is an example of what can go wrong using centered rests: page 2 of the 2-stave version made me want to go back to open score!

http://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/usimg/a/af/IMSLP227827-PMLP04550-D_B_Mus._ms._Bach_P_226,_Faszikel_1.pdf

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Re: Whole Note placement
Posted by Mike Lyons - 01 Dec 11:58AM
That makes my attempts at handwriting look good. You'll notice, of course, the lack of whole bar rests in the staff or in a voice which isn't playing?
When I was younger, I made the mistake of trying to sing both tenor and bass lines when that happened - I was easily confused! :-D

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Win 10 Pro x64, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.7.0 NotePerformer, GPO4 & 5, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC,
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.

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Messages in this thread

Whole Note placement - tom_shepherd, 27 Nov 09:14AM
     Re: Whole Note placement - Robin Walker, 27 Nov 09:55AM
         Re: Whole Note placement - Mike Lyons, 27 Nov 04:15PM
             Re: Whole Note placement - Adrian Drover, 27 Nov 05:39PM
                 Re: Whole Note placement - Richard Mix, 30 Nov 05:43AM
                     Re: Whole Note placement - Adrian Drover, 30 Nov 09:34AM
                         Re: Whole Note placement - Richard Mix, 30 Nov 10:24AM
                     Re: Whole Note placement - Mike Lyons, 30 Nov 11:26AM
                         Re: Whole Note placement - Adrian Drover, 30 Nov 01:58PM
                             Re: Whole Note placement - Richard Mix, 01 Dec 06:24AM
                                 Re: Whole Note placement - Mike Lyons, 01 Dec 07:35AM
                                     Re: Whole Note placement - Richard Mix, 01 Dec 07:54AM
                                         Re: Whole Note placement - Mike Lyons, 01 Dec 11:58AM