Sibelius - the leading music composition and notation software

Hello Everyone,

In a previous post, I asked about the use of brackets around a Fermata. Can a Fermata in Sibelius be adjusted to change the length of the hold or rest?

Just on the use of a Fermata, I'd be interested to know how many other composers find themselves using them a lot?

In almost every piece I write, I add multiple Fermatas. This makes me think that I am not writing in the correct time signature, but all my phrasings and note groups for that particular time signature are right.

I don't see a lot of Fermatas in other people's scores, but they litter mine. I know my composition style relies heavily on improvisation and rubato, but as I'm composing classical styled orchestral music, I imagine many players are going to think that my music is in the wrong time signature because of the extended use of the Fermata.

Have others found this in their music?

Cheers

rob

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Mike Lyons - 08 Nov 09:38PM

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Fermatas can be adjusted in length and whether there is a gap afterwards using the inspector. See attached.

The value of 100 means just the length of the note. 200 means twice the length of the note.

A sample score, showing what you are describing might help elicit more responses in regard to fermata use. I certainly use them very sparingly.

--
Win 10 Pro x64, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.7.0 NotePerformer, GPO4 & 5, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC,
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.

Attachment

Fermata.png (168K)

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Laurence Payne - 08 Nov 09:59PM

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If the beat continues, and you know precisely how many beats a note is to be held for, perhaps it would be better notated as a normal, fixed-length note. But there's nothing wrong with fermatas. For instance, Bach chorales (and the hymn tunes derived from them) are often notated with a fermata at the end of each line. See attachment.

As Mike says, a view of one of your scores will let us be much more helpful to you. Else it's just theoretical wibbling!

Attachment

Capture.PNG.png (239K)

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Rob - 08 Nov 10:11PM

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Thanks for the answers Lawrence and Mike.

I have attached a short piece, which is the violin of a flute quartet.

You can see I have used three Fermatas is a piece less than 40 bars long. In my longer orchestral pieces, I might end up with dozens.

With a lot of Baroque music there is a Rit and the end, and with my music too, as I'm heavily influenced by Baroque music; love that effect.

Cheers

Rob

Attachment

Min No 7.png (24K)

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Laurence Payne - 09 Nov 12:02AM

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I don't see any unusual or excessive use of fermatas in your piece. (May we hear the whole thing? You can attach sib files here.)

I'd be careful of writing triple-f, particularly on a very high flute note. Any factories in the neighborhood might break early for lunch!

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Rob - 09 Nov 01:24AM

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Hi Laurence,

I'm glad you think there are not too many Fermatas; maybe I am over sensitive to them.

Attached is the .sib file.

Cheers

Rob

Attachment

Miniature No 7 in F# minor.sib (46K)

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Rob - 08 Nov 10:13PM

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You are certainly right about that Bach piece Laurence. Man, I have nothing on him. Thanks for that. Time to re-think my use of the Fermata.

Cheers

Rob

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Laurence Payne - 09 Nov 02:52AM (edited 09 Nov 03:24AM)

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Nothing wrong with the concept of your fermatas. But you've got a bit of a notation muddle in bar 5. Some instruments have two fermata points, some only one. And you haven't told the flute player there's a pause at all! He needs to know, even if he isn't playing at that point.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to force this piece into a constant 4/4. There are sections where it really feels like the barlines are in the wrong place. Don't be afraid of an occasional irregular bar if that's what it takes to get the notation matching the meter.

But these are just quibbles about notation. Nice piece!

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Rob - 09 Nov 09:01AM

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I am unsure how to indicate a fermata for different note values in the one bar over multiple instruments in a score.

I want a hold on then note and then on the rest in the Violin and Viola, but all are to hold for the same length of time. I know it looks confusing, so should I only have the Fermata on the note even though I want a hold on the rest as well?

I have added one to the flute part.

And yes, I thought about changing that one bar that does not fit correctly, but I didn't because, over here, in Australia, my university teachers tells me that a golden rule to getting your music played is to never (excuse this) but to never piss off a player with a one bar time change.

They put great emphasis on creating music that players will find, not so much simple, buy clear. They say that that is one of the major keys to getting your music performed, especially by amature groups, and that's about all that is open to me here at this stage of my career.

Hence why I didn't change that one bar.

Not nice, but a reality I'm afraid.

Thanks for your thoughts Laurence, very nice of you.

Regards

Rob

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Adrian Drover - 09 Nov 09:30AM

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The pauses in the Bach piece seem perfectly natural to me. Maybe a breath comma after each would be normal in performance too. I only attend church for weddings and funerals, so I'm not an expert in hymnals. Great teaching for perfection in SATB harmony tho'.

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Adrian Drover - 09 Nov 09:45AM

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The attached would be correct in measure 5.

Attachment

pause for thought.JPG.jpg (38K)

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Mike Lyons - 09 Nov 02:59PM

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Adrian's solution is very clear and lets all the players know that others are holding pauses when they may be resting.

Maybe I'm just nosy, but I like to know what is supposed to be going on around me. I find it helps me to fit in better with the other players.

--
Win 10 Pro x64, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.7.0 NotePerformer, GPO4 & 5, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC,
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.

Re: The Fermata
Posted by James - 09 Nov 03:42PM

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Whether the fermatas in Bach chorales are meant to be holds or whether they should be played through without pause and are only indicators of a cadence is slightly controversial in historical performance practice. There is no question that Baroque composers used the fermata for both holds and for other purposes that were not holds. Many musicologists believe that most of the fermatas in Bach chorales are only breath points and should be passed through without pause.

In Sib, on the fourth keypad, you will find three different kinds of fermatas: the normal curved one, one with a right angle "roof," and one with a flat "roof." Some composers use these different kinds of fermatas to indicate longer or shorter pause times.

In general, I'd say notate your music with the proper time signatures, even if there is a single bar with a different time signature in the middle. Musicians can handle that. John Lennon frequently threw in a bar that had a different time signature in Beatles songs and yet it sounded very natural. With music notation, our basic goal is to communicate clearly. But that doesn't mean we should straight jacket ourselves with unnecessary oversimplifications.

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Mac OS 10.12 Sierra
Sibelius 6.2

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Rob - 09 Nov 09:09PM

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Hi James,

Thanks for the tip on alternate Fermatas, and I hear you about notating music clearly.

I've spent years learning music, and talking to people about notation, articulation, orchestration and instrumentation, but there's nothing like getting in a group/orchestra and seeing how it all works from within to truly understand what it is I am doing.

As a composer, I sit alone with my experience and knowledge, so thank goodness for sites like this one, where I can interact and learn more. Thank you.

Cheers

rob

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Laurence Payne - 10 Nov 12:18AM (edited 10 Nov 04:31PM)

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It's quite simple. Just think of conducting the piece. Where the beat pauses, write a fermata. If it pauses twice, write a fermata at each place. This may involve putting fermatas over two seperate rests.

Re: The Fermata
Posted by Richard Mix - 15 Nov 03:44AM

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There're rare here in the US, but I've had gigs sight singing from older British hymnals with the words on one page facing the tune on the other, and in facsimile hymnals from JSB's time one also sees hymns printed as a poem with normal line breaks separately from tune on a continuous staff. In such a case the fermatas keep one from having a breakdown and do not necessarily have any audible implications for rhythm or breathing.

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Messages in this thread

The Fermata - Rob , 08 Nov 09:19PM

Re: The Fermata - Mike Lyons, 08 Nov 09:38PM

Re: The Fermata - Laurence Payne, 08 Nov 09:59PM

Re: The Fermata - Rob , 08 Nov 10:11PM

Re: The Fermata - Laurence Payne, 09 Nov 12:02AM

Re: The Fermata - Rob , 09 Nov 01:24AM

Re: The Fermata - Rob , 08 Nov 10:13PM

Re: The Fermata - Laurence Payne, 09 Nov 02:52AM

Re: The Fermata - Rob , 09 Nov 09:01AM

Re: The Fermata - Adrian Drover, 09 Nov 09:30AM

Re: The Fermata - Adrian Drover, 09 Nov 09:45AM

Re: The Fermata - Mike Lyons, 09 Nov 02:59PM

Re: The Fermata - James, 09 Nov 03:42PM

Re: The Fermata - Rob , 09 Nov 09:09PM

Re: The Fermata - Laurence Payne, 10 Nov 12:18AM

Re: The Fermata - Richard Mix, 15 Nov 03:44AM