'Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses'

Messages in this thread

Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Chris Crawley, 19 Aug 05:23PM
     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Robin Walker, 19 Aug 05:50PM
         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Chris Crawley, 19 Aug 06:26PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 19 Aug 10:17PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Chris Crawley, 19 Aug 10:33PM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Laurence Payne, 19 Aug 10:49PM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 19 Aug 10:56PM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Adrian Drover, 20 Aug 07:46AM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 20 Aug 08:14AM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 20 Aug 08:15AM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 20 Aug 04:49PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Chris Crawley, 20 Aug 06:33PM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 14 Jan 06:17AM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Robin Walker, 14 Jan 10:32AM

Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Chris Crawley - 19 Aug 05:23PM (edited 19 Aug 05:24PM)
I can't find a way to do this without an awful lot of faffing around.

I have a score of 30 staves and I want to write a time-signature of 3/4 with 6/8 in brackets.

A crude version of what I want is attached.

Any help would be much appreciated.

--
Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico 1.1, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 2.0.2, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100
Attachment TimeSig-1.jpg (23K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Robin Walker - 19 Aug 05:50PM (edited 19 Aug 05:51PM)
Your graphic example was the opposite way round to your text description. I will assume that you want 3/4 (6/8).

- create the score with a conventional 3/4 time signature;
- add the 6/8 as a Text Object in "Time Signatures (one staff only)" style;
- create a Text Object in style "Figured Bass (extras)", and in that text object input from the keyboard a single character of the double-quotation mark;
- you will get a text object with a big pair of () parentheses;
- right-click that text object and turn off Magnetic Layout for it;
- drag that text object and position it precisely around the 6/8 time signature.

Done. Select both the 6/8 and the parantheses and Alt-click them onto other staves if you wish.

--
Sibelius 8.6/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.0.4, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop no-name, Microsoft Surface Book.

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Chris Crawley - 19 Aug 06:26PM
"Your graphic example was the opposite way round to your text description. I will assume that you want 3/4 (6/8)."

Yes - my apologies. It was such a fiddle to fudge the graphic I got lost in what I was doing.

Many thanks.

--
Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico 1.1, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 2.0.2, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 19 Aug 10:17PM (edited 20 Aug 06:24PM)
I had hoped that the Bracket Text plugin would help here, but it turns out that parens added to such text would need to be put into a different text style and so they disappear.

Also since the time signatures are 2 symbols separated by a line feed it is not possible to get parens to line up with both pieces.

Robin's solution seems pretty good, though be careful if you move the text to pick up the () as well.



--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2017.
For plugin categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Chris Crawley - 19 Aug 10:33PM
I can get a visually pleasing result in the score fairly easily, but it gets screwed up by Reset Note Spacing, and it is a mess in the parts.

I will leave it for now until I finished orchestrating the whole score (I'm just over halfway through) and sort it out in the fine-tweaking of formatting at the very end.

At least I know it will look good eventually.

--
Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico 1.1, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 2.0.2, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Aug 10:49PM
Erik Hagner's suggestion on this page is ingenious.

http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=629668&groupid=3&&guest=1

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 19 Aug 10:56PM
In theory, since the TS text is a text object, it should be possible to create text parentheses in a different style around that TS text so you end up with a single text object. I do something like that for expression text. I have not been able to get it to work with the TS text, though.

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2017.
For plugin categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Adrian Drover - 20 Aug 07:46AM
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Aug 22:49
Erik Hagner's suggestion on this page is ingenious.
================================

Yes, Laurence, but have you seen what happens in the parts?
Attachment twintime.JPG.jpg (18K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 20 Aug 08:14AM (edited 20 Aug 03:41PM)
One other possibility with tedious set up. Create a single symbol out of numbers and brackets. (will need to create at least one extra symbol using a number because those symbols are not in the extra symbols list) and add it as a system symbol draw all staves (more options). Turn off Magnetic Layout.

It is a single object so all the parts stay together.

Still a problem with multirests - is there a way to get extra space for multirests?

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2017.
For plugin categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install
Attachments snap3.png (34K), snap1.png (41K), snap2.png (25K), Time Sig Paren As Symbol_v6.sib (103K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 20 Aug 08:15AM (edited 20 Aug 03:38PM)
Interesting fact: if you try to remove a post that had an attachment, the forum software can attach some random file. Best not to do that I guess.
Attachments snap1.png (41K), snap1.png (41K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 20 Aug 04:49PM (edited 20 Aug 06:22PM)
Here is a score in 7.5 format and 6.2 format with several key sig symbols defined. The symbols have had Magnetic Layout turned off. Feel free to use this score as a source for copying symbols from or as a source for a House Style.

Interesting to note: the ability to add a system symbol to all staves was added in 7.5 so you can't do that in previous versions.

Also: the symbol sizes in Opus worked out fine. I imported an Inkmen2 house style and the numbers were too big, so if you wanted to do this sort of thing with other music fonts you may well need to make up a different sized common symbols file.

Example shown just because.

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2017.
For plugin categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install
Attachments Time Sig Paren As Symbol Opus_v75.sib (38K), Time Sig Paren As Symbol Inkpen2_v6.sib (110K), snap1.png (180K), Time Sig Paren As Symbol Opus_v6.sib (103K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Chris Crawley - 20 Aug 06:33PM
That is very useful, Bob Z.

--
Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Dorico 1.1, Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer 2.0.2, Windows 10 64-bit, Intel Core i7, 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 14 Jan 06:17AM (edited 14 Jan 06:30AM)
So...

There was a discussion I was looking in on at the Sibelius Power Users Facebook group, and some folks there came up with an improvement on the method I was using. Here is something that should work better:

1. Create a "compound" time signature (such as 1+2/4) that is wide enough for the other text to fit in. Hide it. This will leave room for the symbols even in the parts.

2. Create a visible "time signature" either using system symbols or text. You need to create both the parenthesized and non-paren time signatures since the real TS is hidden.

These symbols must be added to the score using Notations>Symbols>More Options using Attach to System and Draw on All Staves. You cannot paste them or they will not draw on all staves.

I still prefer symbols to text even if there is a fair bit of setup to create the desired symbol.

In the updated .sib file attached (Sib 7.5 format), I have added a 12/8 signature, plus a set of time signature symbols without parens. To create something like 3/4(6/8), add the 3/4 symbol, then the (6/8) symbol. Turn off Magnetic Layout on both and position them.

That should work.

If you are going to use one TS a lot you can make up a single composite symbol in Edit Symbol out of the TS symbols I have made, so you will usually only need 2 symbols to build them.

If you want an alternating TS like (5/8 + 3/8), you can add several symbols: the Open Paren 2 Lines and Closing Paren 2 Line from Brackets, two of the non-paren TS signature symbols, and a "+" from Articulations or other locations. Position the + off a staff line.

As with the other symbols, you can build a single composite symbol in Edit Symbol, using the existing plain TS symbols to save some work.

As before, feel free to use this score as you wish. You can copy symbols into another score, which will define them in your new score, but you will still need to use Notations>Symbols>More Options using Attach to System and Draw on All Staves to make them work.

You can also create a House Style from this score and import it, importing as few elements as possible, because it will update your fonts.

It is still too hard to do this, and a plugin cannot automate it. Be really careful when you add symbols to always use the non-default settings Attach to System and Draw on All Staves when adding symbols. Also these symbols only work for Opus. For another font, make up your own symbols. It will probably take you less than an hour to get a workable set of them.

A score and some screenshots of the score are attached.

Thanks to Robin Walker, Andreas Hedlund, and Vili Robert Ollila for doing some interesting things with this topic.


--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2018.
For plugin lookup and categories see http://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install
Attachments snap2.png (52K), Time Sig Paren As Symbol Opus_v75.sib (40K), snap1.png (143K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses
Posted by Robin Walker - 14 Jan 10:32AM
The Facebook discussion to which Bob refers is at:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/323691061147132/permalink/831285593721007

--
Sibelius 8.7.2/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.8.2, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop, and Microsoft Surface Book.

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Messages in this thread

Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Chris Crawley, 19 Aug 05:23PM
     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Robin Walker, 19 Aug 05:50PM
         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Chris Crawley, 19 Aug 06:26PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 19 Aug 10:17PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Chris Crawley, 19 Aug 10:33PM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Laurence Payne, 19 Aug 10:49PM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 19 Aug 10:56PM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Adrian Drover, 20 Aug 07:46AM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 20 Aug 08:14AM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 20 Aug 08:15AM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 20 Aug 04:49PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Chris Crawley, 20 Aug 06:33PM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Bob Zawalich, 14 Jan 06:17AM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Time-signature in parentheses - Robin Walker, 14 Jan 10:32AM