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'How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?'

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How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of ... - Raven Cheuk, 21 Mar 07:39AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Adrian Drover, 21 Mar 08:12AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Robin Walker, 21 Mar 10:12AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Raven Cheuk, 21 Mar 10:29AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Laurence Payne, 21 Mar 10:47AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Raven Cheuk, 21 Mar 10:56AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Robin Walker, 21 Mar 11:46AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Robin Walker, 21 Mar 12:07PM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Raven Cheuk, 21 Mar 12:09PM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Robin Walker, 21 Mar 12:28PM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Adrian Drover, 21 Mar 12:31PM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - James, 21 Mar 03:18PM

How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?
Posted by Raven Cheuk - 21 Mar 07:39AM

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Please see the attachment. Bar 1 is good. However, sometimes I want the quavers be voice 2 and the crotchet be voice 1 in which Sibelius automatically gives me the result on bar 2.

I have to manual adjust it to get what I want (bar 3).

I wonder if there is a better way to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2?

Attachment

voice left and right.sib (38K)

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?
Posted by Adrian Drover - 21 Mar 08:12AM (edited 21 Mar 08:36AM)

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Sibelius is probably correct, but you can get a different result by swapping voices. Edited score attached.

PS. You can also flip both voices to make my edit look like your preference.

PPS. I see you have already done that in measure 1, so why are you asking?

Attachment

voice left and right-ed.sib (38K)

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Mar 10:12AM

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Your example 1 breaks Sibelius's rules:
- stem-up notes must be in Voices 1 or 3;
- stem-down notes must be in Voices 2 or 4.

Sibelius will only get the layout right if you stick to those rules. Don't try to fight the rules.

Your example 3 "What I want" seems to run counter to usual engraving practice, which Sibelius uses to produce the example you label "Bad".

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Sibelius 8.5.1/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.0.4, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop no-name, Microsoft Surface Book.

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?
Posted by Raven Cheuk - 21 Mar 10:29AM

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For example this score.
Does it already breaks the rules of Sibelius?

Since stem up should be either voice 1 or 3 in Sibelius.
But in this score, the crochets are stem up and on the right hand side of the quavers.

Attachment

Voice.PNG.png (25K)

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?
Posted by Laurence Payne - 21 Mar 10:47AM

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You might have got more sympathy had your original example included the LH! I can see why you want the quavers to align. This is a case where a little art is required. Whichever method you choose, I think there's going to be some manual adjustment involved. You shouldn't have to resort to an x-offset though.

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?
Posted by Raven Cheuk - 21 Mar 10:56AM

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>PPS. I see you have already done that in measure 1, so why are you asking?

I want to see if there is a better method, without messing up the voices. You can see in one of my reply with attached score, that the crochets are musically voice 1. Then the quavers suddenly come in as voice 2.

> I think there's going to be some manual adjustment involved. You shouldn't have to resort to an x-offset though.

By manual adjustment, do you mean that adjusting the voicing as suggested by Adrian Drover?

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Mar 11:46AM (edited 21 Mar 12:08PM)

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> the crochets are musically voice 1. Then the quavers suddenly come in as voice 2.

You should probably stop thinking about this "musically". In Sibelius, the numbering of voices has everything to do with stem direction and horizontal offset, and nothing to do with musicality.

It is not unknown for a single musical theme to switch between Sibelius voices as it passes from bar to bar, depending on what else is going on in that bar.

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Sibelius 8.5.1/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.0.4, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop no-name, Microsoft Surface Book.

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Mar 12:07PM

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In the case of the sample score picture posted, this case (where you want all the eighths to line up with the sixteenths above), a reasonable approximation to the picture can be produced by Sibelius if you break the normal rules: put the eighths in Voice 1 and the quarters in Voice 2, then flip the stems.

If you want the spacing any tighter than Sibelius does by default, you would need to adjust the X-offset in the Inspector for the Voice 2 quarter notes.

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Sibelius 8.5.1/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.0.4, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop no-name, Microsoft Surface Book.

Attachment

voices.png (9K)

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?
Posted by Raven Cheuk - 21 Mar 12:09PM

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Great!

Thanks for all the efforts. Problem solved.

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Mar 12:28PM

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An alternative solution, involving use of X-offsets, which might be easier to sight-read.

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Sibelius 8.5.1/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.0.4, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop no-name, Microsoft Surface Book.

Attachment

voices2.png (9K)

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?
Posted by Adrian Drover - 21 Mar 12:31PM

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I'm sure Sib follows the rules, but this is how I would do it:

Attachment

Compare.JPG.jpg (40K)

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of voice 2 without offsetting?
Posted by James - 21 Mar 03:18PM

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I agree with Adrian. His #1 is clearest. Sib's #2 is second clearest and would benefit from lengthening the downward stems to avoid the near collision of stem and note head. #3 Raven's is by far the least clear because the stems are not nearly vertically aligned.

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Mac OS 10.12 Sierra
Sibelius 6.2

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Messages in this thread

How to place voice 1 on the right hand side of ... - Raven Cheuk, 21 Mar 07:39AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Adrian Drover, 21 Mar 08:12AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Robin Walker, 21 Mar 10:12AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Raven Cheuk, 21 Mar 10:29AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Laurence Payne, 21 Mar 10:47AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Raven Cheuk, 21 Mar 10:56AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Robin Walker, 21 Mar 11:46AM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Robin Walker, 21 Mar 12:07PM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Raven Cheuk, 21 Mar 12:09PM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Robin Walker, 21 Mar 12:28PM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - Adrian Drover, 21 Mar 12:31PM

Re: How to place voice 1 on the right hand side... - James, 21 Mar 03:18PM