SAD..... Posted by Adrian Drover - 22 Oct 09:04AM Hide picture .....is an acronym for the evolution of Sibelius, Avid & Dorico. I do wish those Steinberg brains were still working on Sib. OK, I forgive them for the ribbon mess, but I'm sure Sib would be in a much healthier state now if they were still with us. Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Rob Tuley - 22 Oct 05:10PM Hide picture I'm not sure Adrian. Back in the 1970s I read some very good papers on delveloping large software systems (actually written by a mechanincal engineer, not a computer guy - but engineers have been designing "complicated things that last a long time" for a few centuries longer than computer scientists) One of his bullet points for software design was "Version five of everything self-destructs". Sometimes you just have to throw "version 5" (or 6, or 7, or 8) away and start again. It doesn't take much imagination (as a software developer) to see where Sibelius still has "Acorn Archimedes" - or at best, "16-bit Windows version 3.1" - running through it like a stick of Blackpool rock... -- Rob Sib 4.1, Windows 10. Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Adrian Drover - 22 Oct 05:49PM Hide picture Interesting info. Thanx for that, Rob. Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Bob Zawalich - 22 Oct 10:16PM Hide picture On the other hand, I find Sibelius to be effective at nearly anything I want it to do, and I also find it to be fun to work in. Avid, on yet another hand, is not my favorite company. -- Bob An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2016. For plugin categories see http://www.sibeliusblog.com/tips/sibelius-download-page-plug-ins/ Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Peter Roos - 23 Oct 03:37AM Hide picture On the contrary ... in hindsight I'm pretty happy. Look at this way: 1. Sibelius is a very mature competent product which allows me to create all the scores I need to. It still has solid product support (Sam and Joe and the programmers around the world). Innovations will be much more slow than Dorico, because of the millions of line of coding and legacy, but in terms of ease of use and maturity, it has everything to make most everyone happy. 2. And now, in addition to Sibelius (and Finale), we also have Dorico, with Daniel and his team starting with a clean slate. The history of how Daniel and his team were sacked was ugly, but it's resulted in a win win for users. This is beautiful. The more choices, the merrier. -- Peter Roos www.summeroflovemusic.com IMDb: www.imdb.com/name/nm2039241 Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Adrian Drover - 23 Oct 08:22AM (edited 23 Oct 08:26AM) Hide picture Posted by Peter Roos - 23 Oct 03:37 The history of how Daniel and his team were sacked was ugly, but it's resulted in a win win for users. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see how this is a "win, win" situation, Peter. We are presently stuck with the choice of a badly maintained Sib or a beginner's version of Dorico. It will be a long time before the latter is able to create scores in the way I wish them to look, even if the developers have any plans to satisfy writers in my field of composition. And, at my age, I doubt if I will be able to cope with a completely new learning curve. I fear, that I am stuck with a bug-ridden engraving tool for life. Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Neil Macintyre - 23 Oct 10:42AM Hide picture For those who know Sibelius and/or Finale far better than I do, can these programs do all this? http://lilypond.org/examples.html These examples look very impressive to me but I really don't think I'd like the text input method. I'm just asking out of interest. Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Patrick O'Keefe - 23 Oct 08:49PM Hide picture > I don't see how this is a "win, win" situation, Peter. We are presently stuck with the choice of a badly maintained Sib or a beginner's version of Dorico. It will be a long time before the latter is able to create scores in the way I wish them to look, even if the developers have any plans to satisfy writers in my field of composition. And, at my age, I doubt if I will be able to cope with a completely new learning curve. I fear, that I am stuck with a bug-ridden engraving tool for life. Win or loose, it's the situation we're stuck in. We can complain about it (and I'm pretty good at that), but we can't change it. If we're lucky the Avid team will miraculously fix all the bugs in Sibelius. Or maybe we'll be given a free copy of Dorico and easily figure out the new work flows and techniques just in time for the Dorico development team to release the next release that has all the features we need. Somehow, I doubt that. So I intend to keep using Sibelius for as long as I need it. And I intend to get Dorico sometime soon and start getting familiar with it ... without much hope of mastering it before my sand runs out. -- Patrick O'Keefe Sib 7.5, GPO4, NotePerformer, lots of EWQL stuff Win10 x64 Pro Intel i7-4771, 3.50Ghz, 16GB RAM Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Laurence Payne - 23 Oct 12:24PM Hide picture > I'm not sure Adrian. Back in the 1970s I read some very good papers on delveloping large software systems (actually written by a mechanincal engineer, not a computer guy - but engineers have been designing "complicated things that last a long time" for a few centuries longer than computer scientists) > > One of his bullet points for software design was "Version five of everything self-destructs". Sometimes you just have to throw "version 5" (or 6, or 7, or 8) away and start again. > 5 worked out ok for Beethoven. Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Adrian Drover - 23 Oct 02:19PM Hide picture Aye! And Churchill. Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by graham - 26 Oct 01:01PM Hide picture These 3 posts reflect very much what I have been considering now that Dorico has hit the streets. Bob Z said :- On the other hand, I find Sibelius to be effective at nearly anything I want it to do, and I also find it to be fun to work in. Graham >I couldn't agree more. And thanks for all those plugins too Bob. Peter R said:- 1. Sibelius is a very mature competent product which allows me to create all the scores I need to. It still has solid product support (Sam and Joe and the programmers around the world). Innovations will be much more slow than Dorico, because of the millions of line of coding and legacy, but in terms of ease of use and maturity, it has everything to make most everyone happy. Graham > Exactly! That it has legacy code is that is has been developed as PC's and OS too -have remember Win 98? ME? Vista? It still does a lot of things very nicely for most people- from hobbyist to professional and can deliver a tolerably good looking score straight 'out of the box'. Ok so it has niggly bits so does Win 7 and probably Word. Patrick O'K. said :- And, at my age, I doubt if I will be able to cope with a completely new learning curve. Graham > I am the same..most of us have grown up with Sibelius over at least 2 decades and at 72 I intend to stick with Sibelius into win 10 after win 7 is no longer supported or I fall off my twig.. Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Adrian Drover - 26 Oct 01:43PM (edited 26 Oct 03:32PM) Hide picture Posted by graham - 26 Oct 13:01 It still does a lot of things very nicely for most people- from hobbyist to professional and can deliver a tolerably good looking score straight 'out of the box'. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, the print-outs I made from my very first version of Sib7 Acorn look just as good as the print-outs I now get from Sib 8.3 Win., tho' admittedly, it's a lot easier getting as far as the printing stage now than it was 20 or so years ago. Methinks Sib will be a tough cookie to beat, but I wish Daniel & Co. good rewards for all the hard work they have been putting into their new venture. Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Robert Enns - 26 Oct 03:13PM Hide picture I'm 77 and am, and always have been, an early adopter. I never want to stop learning and trying new things. Including new programs. -- Rob Win 10 64 bit, 3.1 GHz, 8 Gigs RAM Sibelius 7.5, and Sibelius 8.4 Sibelius Sounds 7.1.2, NotePerformer, GPO4, GPO5 Photoscore 8.0.4 Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Adrian Drover - 26 Oct 03:30PM Hide picture Hmm, I'm only 76, but I'd rather be writing scores than learning new software. I still haven't figured out how to use a mobile phone. Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Mike Lyons - 26 Oct 04:39PM Hide picture ^+1 ^^+1 :-D -- Win 10 Pro, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.3 NotePerformer, Miroslav Phil, Harmony Asst, GPO, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC, Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Patrick O'Keefe - 26 Oct 05:12PM Hide picture > Hmm, I'm only 76, but I'd rather be writing scores than learning new software. I'm only 70 and like doing both, but it's tough to do both simultaneously if I want to either very well. I suspect trying to learn Dorico is going to be a spare time task. Sibelius for work; Dorico for play. -- Patrick O'Keefe Sib 7.5, GPO4, NotePerformer, lots of EWQL stuff Win10 x64 Pro Intel i7-4771, 3.50Ghz, 16GB RAM Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Chris Crawley - 26 Oct 05:23PM (edited 26 Oct 05:24PM) Hide picture As someone who has gone back to university education long after retiring, I think a lot of older people seriously underestimate themselves when it comes to learning new stuff. Learning may get a bit slower with age, or maybe they've lost some of their energy - in which case, just give it a little more time. I'm not going to comment on the new scoring program here - I think it's bad form, apart from what Vee has put higher up - but any new program is a challenge, and I can't see that programs like this (and I include Sibelius) are ever going to be very intuitive to a newcomer. -- Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer, Windows 8.1 64-bit, Intel Core i7 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100 Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Robert Enns - 26 Oct 08:28PM Hide picture > > Hmm, I'm only 76, but I'd rather be writing scores than learning new software. > > I'm only 70 and like doing both, but it's tough to do both simultaneously if I want to either very well. I suspect trying to learn Dorico is going to be a spare time task. Sibelius for work; Dorico for play. > -- > Patrick O'Keefe > Precisely. -- Rob Win 10 64 bit, 3.1 GHz, 8 Gigs RAM Sibelius 7.5, and Sibelius 8.4 Sibelius Sounds 7.1.2, NotePerformer, GPO4, GPO5 Photoscore 8.0.4 Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Laurence Payne - 26 Oct 09:33PM (edited 26 Oct 09:34PM) Hide picture > Hmm, I'm only 76, but I'd rather be writing scores than learning new software. I still haven't figured out how to use a mobile phone. Incompetence may be inevitable. But we mustn't descend to taking pride in it! But as a mere youngster of 65, what would I know? :-) Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Neil Macintyre - 27 Oct 09:14PM (edited 27 Oct 09:53PM) Hide picture Quite a lot of elderly men here, it seems. So there'll probably be a loss in the production of testosterone in some, simply due to aging. I'd guess this could adversely affect their willingness and motivation to take up a new challenge. To quote: "Emotional changes - In addition to causing physical changes, having low levels of testosterone can affect you on an emotional level. The condition can lead to feelings of sadness or depression. It can also degrade your overall sense of well-being. Some people have trouble with memory and concentration and experience lowered motivation and self-confidence." A sad situation for the older man, but there are plenty of exceptions, e.g. Roger Penrose who, at 85, has just had a new book, challenging received wisdom, published this year. Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Laurence Payne - 27 Oct 10:43PM Hide picture > A sad situation for the older man, but there are plenty of exceptions, e.g. Roger Penrose who, at 85, has just had a new book, challenging received wisdom, published this year. Argumentative old git :-) Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Venancio @ Avid - 27 Oct 10:56PM Hide picture #MuchRespectToAllOfYou -- Venancio Jimenez III Sibelius Support | Sibelius Community Who Can We Help Today? vee.jimenez@avid.com Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Peter Klein - 28 Oct 01:37AM Hide picture There is a big difference between learning new software for the joy of learning, and being forced by external circumstances to learn new software so you can continue to do what you've always done. In my view, price increases and rent-seeking behavior count as such external circumstances. The silver lining is that sometimes the new software offers better or more convenient ways of doing things. I bought my Sib perpetual license, but I am also exploring an alternative (and no, it's not the Software That Dare Not Speak Its Name here anymore). The jury is still out. But my alternative offers easier note entry and editing, in exchange for less engraving features that I don't really need. Software businesspeople take a risk when they try to force their users into a rental model. Some people may take their bat and ball and head for a more friendly field. Not everyone needs the most comprehensive, do-everything program. And when the user community's perception of a company changes from friendly and collaborative to something else entirely, that company risks much. I've been using Sibelius since PC version 1.1. That I feel the need to explore alternatives should tell you something. (none of this should be interpreted as a slam on Sam or Joe or Vee, all of whom seem to be doing the very best they can). --Peter Sib 8, Sib 5, and never mind the others... Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Adrian Drover - 28 Oct 07:56AM Hide picture Posted by Peter Klein - 28 Oct 01:37 (and no, it's not the Software That Dare Not Speak Its Name here anymore). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WOT!!!? DORICO, YOU MEAN? Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Tony Wakefield - 28 Oct 09:41AM Hide picture 74 going on 11. -- Sibelius 6/7/8. Win7. Note Performer, with various other no longer in use audio. Good remote (& cost free) contact, adjustments and advice from Avid in the Philipines. Web:http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/tonywakefield Back to top | All threads

Re: SAD..... Posted by Patrick O'Keefe - 29 Oct 07:25PM Hide picture > Quite a lot of elderly men here, it seems. "Elderly men" seems a bit too dignified and perhaps a bit stodgy for me. I prefer "curmudgeonly old geezer". > To quote: > "... having low levels of testosterone ... can lead to feelings of sadness or depression. ..." Appearance of new bugs in old reliable software can have the same effect. So can the continued existence of old bugs. At a slightly less lowered level of testosterone, the feelings of sadness or depression may be replaced by feelings of irritation and anger. And I believe the same reaction may be seen in women without assistance of testosterone at all. -- Patrick O'Keefe Sib 7.5, GPO4, NotePerformer, lots of EWQL stuff Win10 x64 Pro Intel i7-4771, 3.50Ghz, 16GB RAM Back to top | All threads