'Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7 Chamber sounds'

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Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7... - ccorbell, 21 Jul 04:47AM
     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Mike Lyons, 21 Jul 06:55AM
         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Robin Walker, 21 Jul 08:47AM
             Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - ccorbell, 21 Jul 11:04AM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Robin Walker, 21 Jul 11:28AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Robin Walker, 21 Jul 11:38AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Mike Lyons, 21 Jul 01:39PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Robin Walker, 21 Jul 03:02PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Robin Walker, 21 Jul 05:15PM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Mike Lyons, 21 Jul 09:52PM

Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7 Chamber sounds
Posted by ccorbell - 21 Jul 04:47AM
I'm composing some stuff for chamber instruments and percussion, and it seems like the "Sibelius 7 Sounds (Chamber)" have serious problems rendering most of the percussion sounds.

A big majority of the unpitched percussion sounds simply don't make any sound at all for me when playing back with this configuration (no sound when entering notes either). I can get sounds from almost every patch if I switch to General MIDI, but the other instrument sounds there are so terrible (esp. cello and flute) that it's worth it to me to stick with the chamber sounds and just use whatever percussion patches work for the score.

So, I've went through nearly every unpitched percussion patch - some really basic ones that don't work include tamborine, tenor drum, sleigh bells, toms.

I settled on Congas and Shaker since those seemed to be working, and suddenly Shaker stopped working after I entered some notes from the keyboard. Prior notes in the score entered with the mouse, which were playing back, also stopped playing back then. (Is this some weird behind-the-scenes MIDI channel switching or something?) Saving and reopening the file doesn't help, nor does moving the notes off and back onto the single-line staff - this score just seems unable to render the Shaker sounds that it was playing back fine with the S7 Chamber configuration 20 minutes ago. (This happened before with a previous score and a different percussion instrument, and there too, the ability to play the sounds never came back - I ended up giving up and switching that one to General MIDI).

Have others dealt with this? Does Avid have a list or chart somewhere of what instruments are actually supported under each sound set? (It would be enormously helpful if this was indicated in the UI when selecting instrument instead of forcing the user to experiment).

Thanks for any help!
Christopher
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7 Chamber sounds
Posted by Mike Lyons - 21 Jul 06:55AM
As Robin is probably tired of saying, just because there is an instrument name in the list of sounds that does not mean that the instrument is actually in the library. Those instruments are there in case you get another library that does have that instrument in it.

Please show us what you are trying to do with an example score. Drum maps in sibelius are a minefield. You need to use the correct staff type, the correct note head and the correct pitch - and even then, things can go badly wrong.


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Win 10 Pro, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.3 NotePerformer, Miroslav Phil, Harmony Asst, GPO, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC,
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7 Chamber sounds
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Jul 08:47AM
Christopher, could you step back from listing the things that you have tried that do not work, and instead give a clear description of exactly what you are trying to achieve with the score that you have (without making any assumptions about how it will be implemented)? Exactly what sounds do you desire in which staff? It would be helpful to attach the Sibelius .sib score file in question, so that we can see the context.

There also might be a problem with terminology: Sibelius itself does not have any "patches", so it is not clear what you are referring to when you say things like "went through nearly every unpitched percussion patch". Only sample libraries or MIDI instruments have "patches": but that's not what goes into a Sibelius score. A Sibelius score is an abstract representation of the notation, and of the sounds that the notation is to play. The score has no knowledge of patches, and those associations are made only at playback time, when it is known which sample libraries or instruments are then available.

In particular, there is nothing either in Sibelius or in the Sibelius 7 Sounds sample library called "Congas and Shaker", so where did that phrase come from?

The documentation for the Sibelius 7 Sounds sample library is at:
http://hub.sibelius.com/download/documentation/pdfs/sibelius712-sounds-en.pdf

When scoring for unpitched percussion staves in Sibelius, you need to be aware that any one staff in the score can be linked to sounds only from a single patch (or program) in the sample library or MIDI instrument at playback time. If, at composition time, you specify sounds in the staff's Drum Map which, at playback time, come from more than a single patch in the available sample library, then Sibelius playback will utilise only sounds from a single patch, which it will choose on a best-match basis: they might sound nothing like what you had hoped for.

--
Sibelius 8.4/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.0.4, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop no-name, Microsoft Surface Book.
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7 Chamber sounds
Posted by ccorbell - 21 Jul 11:04AM
Sorry if this was not clear - everything I have mentioned is in the Sibelius user interface. Let me do a bug-report-style set of repro steps and I think you will see what I am trying to do here.

1. Create a Sibelius 7 document with one common instrument (say: category "Woodwind", choose "Flute").

2. Set the playback sounds to "Sibelius 7 Sounds (Chamber)" under "Configuration" on the "Play" ribbon section. This is what I mean in the OP when I write "'Sibelius 7 Sounds (Chamber)' have serious problems rendering most of the percussion sounds" - I'm talking about this setting, which I prefer as the sound rendering for chamber instruments like flute and cello.

3. Add some unpitched percussion instruments to the score, using the Home ribbon's "Add/Remove Instruments" button. Feel free to use several of those I mentioned. I.e.:
a. Click "Home" below the menu bar
b. Click "Add or Remove", the button with the trumpet icon
c. Choose a percussion instrument such as:
Orchestral Unpitched Percussion -> Tenor Drum
Orchestral Unpitched Percussion -> Sleigh Bells
African Unpitched Percussion -> Djembe
Latin American Percussion -> Box
Latin American Percussion -> Congas (1 Line) ***
Other Unpitched Percussion -> Dumbek (3 Lines)
Other Unpitched Percussion -> Shaker (1 Line) ***
Other Unpitched Percussion -> Tambourine

*** (NOTE: that's the Congas! And the Shaker! They're instruments, in Sibelius. Also note that the term "patches" in MIDI is used analagously to "instruments", with the list of General MIDI instruments-to-numbers being referred to commonly as the "patch map" - viz. http://www.keyboardservice.com/MidiPatch.asp)

4. Enter some notes in ALL of the instruments you added, esp. the percussion instruments. You may want to put the notes for different instruments in different measures so that you can hear each instrument individually when you press play.

5. Hit Play on your score. BUG: expected: all instruments play back; actual: most unpitched percussion instruments do not play back. (NOTE: all do play back if instead of Sibelius 7 (Chamber) you select MIDI (General), but then most of the sounds are lower quality).

Above were my general repro steps for the issues trying to use unpitched percussion with Sibelius 7 (Chamber) sounds, now I'm going to add steps for the more specific issue I asked about concerning the disappearance of a previously working instrument sound.

6.) Using a process like above, create a document with "Siblieus 7 (Chamber)" playback sounds and two instruments, "Woodwinds->Flute" and "Other Unpitched Percussion -> Shaker (1 Line)" Rationale: I chose Shaker because in my trial-and-error, I found that Shaker did in fact play back under the "Sibelius 7 (Chamber)" sound configuration.

7.) Using the mouse and keypad, enter some notes for the Shaker in measure 1 (on the single staff line) and the flute in measure 2. You should hear both instruments play as you click to add the notes. Play the score back: you will hear both the Shaker and the Flute.

8.) Select Shaker staff on measure 3 (which should be empty) and hit N for note-entry. Use an attached MIDI keyboard to enter some notes using middle C (C4), which shows up right on the single line, like the previous notes you entered via mouse. BUG: expected: you hear the notes played with "Shaker" sound as you enter them, actual: the notes do not sound as you enter them.

9.) Go to the beginning of the document (Cmd-[) and play. BUG: expected: you hear Flute and Shaker, with all the notes on the staves; actual: NO SHAKER SOUND, neither in the notes you just added nor in the notes you had added earlier with the mouse.

From this point on, I have not figured out any way to get that Shaker instrument to play back again, unless you give up on using "Sibelius 7 (Chamber)" sounds and switch back to MIDI (General).

So to recap my questions:

1) Is there a list of what instruments (which show up in the Add/Remove instruments dialog) are / are not supported with the various playback configurations provided such as "Sibelius 7 (Chamber)"? Without such a list, we are forced to use trial-and-error just to see if a sound works, which is time-consuming.

2) Can you repro that bug with the "Shaker" instrument working at first and then no longer working? Does that behavior make any sense? I've seen the issue with a couple of other percussion instruments too. This seems like not just a missing feature but an actual bug to me.

I'm attaching a .sib file of the Flute/Shaker score *after* playback of Shaker is broken. (I'd attach the before too but it looks like you can only attach one file).

Thanks!

Christopher

P.S. Let me know if you need a programmer.
Attachment Buggy Doc #2.sib (31K)
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7 Chamber sounds
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Jul 11:28AM
> 1) Is there a list of what instruments (which show up in the Add/Remove instruments dialog) are / are not supported
> with the various playback configurations provided such as "Sibelius 7 (Chamber)"?

Please see the link I posted earlier.

Or, what I do is to read the SoundSet file, where all becomes obvious.

Please note that there is not a one-to-one correspondence between the list of names of pre-defined instruments in Sibelius, the notation application, and the list of sounds available in any given sample library, including Sibelius 7 Sounds.

So, there are pre-defined instruments listed in Sibelius for which no sounds exist in the Sibelius 7 Sounds library, and there are sounds in the Sibelius 7 Sounds sample library for which there are no pre-defined instruments in Sibelius (in which case, you can create your own Instrument Definitions with matching Sound IDs).

> P.S. Let me know if you need a programmer.

This is a peer-to-peer user support forum. You are not talking to Avid here.

--
Sibelius 8.4/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.0.4, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop no-name, Microsoft Surface Book.
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7 Chamber sounds
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Jul 11:38AM
Christopher, is this Sibelius on Windows or on Mac OS?

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Sibelius 8.4/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.0.4, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop no-name, Microsoft Surface Book.
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7 Chamber sounds
Posted by Mike Lyons - 21 Jul 01:39PM
The attached works perfectly happily here. The shaker type instruments are very, very quiet in the mix. Some of the sounds available in the full set of sibelius sounds are not available on the same ptaches in the chamber version.

--
Win 10 Pro, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.3 NotePerformer, Miroslav Phil, Harmony Asst, GPO, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC,
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.
Attachment percussion1_Sib 7.sib (35K)
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7 Chamber sounds
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Jul 03:02PM
> Orchestral Unpitched Percussion -> Tenor Drum

This instrument uses SoundID "unpitched.drum.medium.tenor drum".
There is no exact match for this SoundID in the SoundSet. Sibelius will use one of the more specific SoundIDs from the "Marching Tenor Line" patch. Works for me.

> Orchestral Unpitched Percussion -> Sleigh Bells

This instrument uses SoundID "unpitched.metal.bells.medium-high.sleigh bells"
There is no match for this in the SoundSet.
Sibelius will choose a nearest-match sound from the "GM Percussion Kit" patch. Works for me.

> African Unpitched Percussion -> Djembe

The drum-map for this Instrument does not exactly map the capabilities of the Djembe in the SoundSet. A better Drum Map could be defined by the user. At present, most of the lines produce some sort of Djembe sound. Works for me.

> Latin American Percussion -> Box

This instrument uses SoundIDs for which no sound exists in the "Sibelius 7 Sounds" sample library.
Sibelius will play a random drum sound, or silence.

> Latin American Percussion -> Congas (1 Line)

This instrument uses SoundID "unpitched.drum.medium-low.conga" and sub-variants.
Sibelius will play these from the "Afrocuban Percussion Kit" patch. Works for me.

> Other Unpitched Percussion -> Dumbek (3 Lines)

This instrument uses SoundID "unpitched.drum.medium-low.dumbek" and sub-variants, for which no matches exist in the SoundSet.
Sibelius will play a random drum sound or silence.

> Other Unpitched Percussion -> Shaker (1 Line)

This instrument uses SoundIDs of sub-variants of "unpitched.rattle.shaker.egg".
There is no exact match for the sub-variants in the SoundSet.
Sibelius will play the less specific ""unpitched.rattle.shaker.egg" from the Afrocuban Percussion Kit patch. Works for me, at low volume.

> Other Unpitched Percussion -> Tambourine

This instrument uses SoundIDs of sub-variants of "unpitched.drum.medium.tambourine".
Sibelius will play sounds from the "Tambourine" patch. Works for me.

> note that the term "patches" in MIDI is used analagously to "instruments",

But not in Sibelius, because the terms "Instrument" and "Patch" mean quite different things.

> BUG: expected: all instruments play back; actual: most unpitched percussion instruments do not play back.

I cannot reproduce your issue. For me most instruments play back some form of sound, maybe not the one you expected. They behave as documented above.

It is possible that, on your computer, the "Sibelius 7 Sounds" sample library is not completely installed.

If this is on Windows, please use Windows Explorer to navigate to the folder:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Avid\Sibelius Sounds\
Then right-click on sub-folder "Sibelius 7 Sounds" and select "Properties".
From the "Properties" panel, read out the "Size" in bytes, and the number of files and folders in "Contains", and post the result in a follow-up.

If this is on Mac OS, please use the Finder:
- pull down the "Go" menu and select "Go To Folder";
- in the box type precisely:

/Library/Application Support/Avid/Sibelius Sounds

and click "Go";
- click to select the sub-folder "Sibelius 7 Sounds", then type Command-I to open the "Get Info" panel;
- read out the Size in bytes and item count, and post the results in a follow-up.

--
Sibelius 8.4/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.0.4, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop no-name, Microsoft Surface Book.
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7 Chamber sounds
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Jul 05:15PM
> 9.) Go to the beginning of the document (Cmd-[) and play.
> BUG: expected: you hear Flute and Shaker, with all the notes on the staves;
> actual: NO SHAKER SOUND, neither in the notes you just added nor in the notes you had added earlier with the mouse.

I cannot reproduce this.

> 2) Can you repro that bug with the "Shaker" instrument working at first and then no longer working?

No, the score plays fine here, but the level of the shaker is very low indeed: the flute has to be reduced in the mixer down to about 5% or less to get any balance with the shaker at 100%.

--
Sibelius 8.4/7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 8.0.4, Dolet 6.6 for Sibelius, Windows 10 64-bit 16GB. Desktop no-name, Microsoft Surface Book.
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7 Chamber sounds
Posted by Mike Lyons - 21 Jul 09:52PM
If you are not sure whether or not a sound is playing, check the mixer. If the bars next to the fader are going up and down a sound is being played.

--
Win 10 Pro, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.3 NotePerformer, Miroslav Phil, Harmony Asst, GPO, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC,
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.
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Messages in this thread

Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibelius 7... - ccorbell, 21 Jul 04:47AM
     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Mike Lyons, 21 Jul 06:55AM
         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Robin Walker, 21 Jul 08:47AM
             Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - ccorbell, 21 Jul 11:04AM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Robin Walker, 21 Jul 11:28AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Robin Walker, 21 Jul 11:38AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Mike Lyons, 21 Jul 01:39PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Robin Walker, 21 Jul 03:02PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Robin Walker, 21 Jul 05:15PM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Percussion problems with Sibeli... - Mike Lyons, 21 Jul 09:52PM