arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by kbundies - 25 May 09:04PM (edited 25 May 09:05PM) Hide picture Someone asked me to arrange a few piano songs for string quartet. Style is french, a la Poulenc, Milhaud... I know, this is quite a task, as one needs to know, how a string quartet works and what will sound well. So basically I would need the knowledge and experience of a composer, which I both don‘t have. I do know, though, how string instruments work, as I am a string player myself. Where can I get some starting advice on this? Any help very welcome. -- Sibelius 8.2.0.89 on Mac OSX 10.11.4 Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by James - 25 May 11:17PM (edited 25 May 11:21PM) Hide picture Actually I think being a string player may be more valuable to you than being a composer. Why don't you just do it? You can also listen to string quartets and read the scores while you do it. That's a very good thing to do. Of course, you have to know the ranges of each instrument. As a player, you already have some idea about bowing, which is really important. And you could get an orchestration book. But why not just dive in and try? -- Mac OS 10.9 Mavericks Sibelius 6.2 Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Mike Lyons - 26 May 06:35AM Hide picture Start by arranging a small section of the music first. The bottom notes will almost always be in the cello part, so start with that. Don't be too literal in moving the music over to the strings. Some things that might sound ok on the piano will sound unbalanced or just plain wrong on the strings. Use your ears. Try a bar or so to see if you like it or if it works. Use your ears. Sibelius will help you with keeping within the playable ranges of the instruments. But use your ears all the time. Did I mention listening to it as you go along? :-D -- Win 10 Pro, sib 6,7.5.1, 8.2, 8GB, 6TB, Focusright scarlett 6i6, Cubase 7.5, 8, 8.5, NotePerformer 1.5, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Miroslav, etc. Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Adrian Drover - 26 May 07:44AM Hide picture Learning to arrange is all about reading other composer/arranger's scores and listening to the results, trial & error. There's no magic formula. Use what you like best. Develop ideas to your own individual style & taste. Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by kbundies - 26 May 08:01AM (edited 26 May 10:15AM) Hide picture > Don't be too literal in moving the music over to the strings. Some things that might sound ok on the piano will sound unbalanced or just plain wrong on the strings. nts. But use your ears all the time. > Mike, thank you for your answer, this is exactly, where the first problem arises: how would one put this piano acc. into a nice string setting? My first try looks very dry, as it copies too literally... still it would work Attachments Piano.png (159K), String Quartet_try.png (83K) Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Laurence Payne - 26 May 09:55AM (edited 26 May 12:32PM) Hide picture That's one possibility. It emphasises the middle C# rather. Are you feeling one or two chords per bar? The piano phrasing suggests one. -- FAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/sibelius.html If you want help with a score, attach the sib file! Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Tony Wakefield - 26 May 10:10AM Hide picture The piano slurs suggest that the strings should be sustained as much as possible within the `requirement` that movement is necessary. So perhaps your cello could sustain for longer that the minim. There are in fact dozens of ways this can be acheived and none of them would be wrong. Look at some French string orchestrations - they will be interesting, and may even vary from bar to bar as your composer hasn`t done. It maybe that you won`t either, as the `voice` is of course of maximum importance, and as long as he/she can hear the harmonic progression, the rest should be pretty straight forward. It`s well known in all music spheres that the majority of compositions, arrangements, orchestrations are in the end revised, sometimes several times. So don`t be afraid - just do it. I repeat what`s been said above - you`re half way there already knowing that you yourself are a string player. Tip: It`s usual to sustain the root third and 5th. But for more modern French music try sustaining the 9th i.e. G#, then play it back and analyse. Another tip: Make sure, like me, that you`ve recently cleaned out (oiled) your ear`oles. I can hear in stereo now, Yipee. -- http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/tonywakefield Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by kbundies - 26 May 10:17AM Hide picture > Tip: It`s usual to sustain the root third and 5th. But for more modern French music try sustaining the 9th i.e. G#, then play it back and analyse. Dear Tony, thank you for your helpful advice; I will experiment further ;-) -- Sibelius 8.2.0.89 on Mac OSX 10.11.4 Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Laurence Payne - 26 May 12:37PM Hide picture > Tip: It`s usual to sustain the root third and 5th. But for more modern French music try sustaining the 9th i.e. G#, then play it back and analyse. Interesting that there isn't a third in the accompaniment at all. One appears eventually in the vocal melody. We're heading a little into the realms of texture rather than functional harmony here. Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Mike Lyons - 26 May 01:10PM Hide picture Indeed, but there is room in the musical world for both! My initial, very brief thoughts attached. -- Win 10 Pro, sib 6,7.5.1, 8.2, 8GB, 6TB, Focusright scarlett 6i6, Cubase 7.5, 8, 8.5, NotePerformer 1.5, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Miroslav, etc. Attachment string arrangement.sib (41K) Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Laurence Payne - 26 May 02:06PM Hide picture Um. Nice sound, but I think introducing the third of the chord into the accompaniment goes beyond the remit of an arranger. Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Adrian Drover - 26 May 01:19PM (edited 26 May 01:27PM) Hide picture Here's one possible solution. Sustaining the 9th is no problem. It's what the harmony suggests, and nice. Attachment str.4tet.sib (96K) Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Laurence Payne - 26 May 01:59PM Hide picture Some ideas... Attachment QUARTET.sib (80K) Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Mike Lyons - 26 May 09:11PM (edited 26 May 09:13PM) Hide picture @laurence I sort of agree. But isn't that the difference between a transcriber and an arranger? I wasn't suggesting that anything I did in the examples was necessarily a good way to go, only offering them up as possibilities. Given the lack of a 3rd in the original, the music probably calls for a less tonally settled arrangement, but hey, to each his own. -- Win 10 Pro, sib 6,7.5.1, 8.2, 8GB, 6TB, Focusright scarlett 6i6, Cubase 7.5, 8, 8.5, NotePerformer 1.5, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Miroslav, etc. Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Laurence Payne - 27 May 09:34AM Hide picture > @laurence I sort of agree. But isn't that the difference between a transcriber and an arranger? > > I wasn't suggesting that anything I did in the examples was necessarily a good way to go, only offering them up as possibilities. Given the lack of a 3rd in the original, the music probably calls for a less tonally settled arrangement, but hey, to each his own. I wouldn't say it departs very far from tonality. But don't you feel the A in the melody gains special astringency from not having been pre-heard in the accompaniment? Mabe we shouldn't "correct" this sort of thing. Next, we'll be rewriting Debussy taking out all the parallel fifths! Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Adrian Drover - 27 May 11:55AM Hide picture I played the accompaniment before I actually looked at the melody. Audibly, it gives no hint of being in a minor key, even tho' the key sig gives the game away. If you continue the intervals of perfect 5th up another two steps, you eventually arrive at the major 3rd. Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Laurence Payne - 27 May 12:18PM (edited 27 May 12:20PM) Hide picture Here's a video of a lady singing the entire song in her nightie, while another lady dramatically clutches a stick. And that's three minutes of my life that I'll never get back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6YYUTCjHRg Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Adrian Drover - 27 May 02:47PM (edited 27 May 02:51PM) Hide picture When the other lady lady put down the stick and lifted the cloak I thought she was going to do a magic trick and make the soprano disappear. At least, that's what I was hoping for. Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Laurence Payne - 27 May 03:28PM (edited 27 May 03:30PM) Hide picture The Adele version is better. From 8.20. Can't say this sort of thing does much for me though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH3mQtgSrwQ Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Mike Lyons - 27 May 10:00PM Hide picture > > @laurence I sort of agree. But isn't that the difference between a transcriber and an arranger? > > > > I wasn't suggesting that anything I did in the examples was necessarily a good way to go, only offering them up as possibilities. Given the lack of a 3rd in the original, the music probably calls for a less tonally settled arrangement, but hey, to each his own. > > > I wouldn't say it departs very far from tonality. But don't you feel the A in the melody gains special astringency from not having been pre-heard in the accompaniment? > > Mabe we shouldn't "correct" this sort of thing. Next, we'll be rewriting Debussy taking out all the parallel fifths! I would never dare correct someone else's work, but we don't all have to think of it the same way, do we? I do agree that the open 5ths/4ths give the music a bit of 'wriggle room' before it settles on a major or minor or modal or whatever tonality.It also helps helps to make the music sound more 'spacious' and 'open' at the start. But it is only one a of a wide varieties open to an arranger. -- Win 10 Pro, sib 6,7.5.1, 8.2, 8GB, 6TB, Focusright scarlett 6i6, Cubase 7.5, 8, 8.5, NotePerformer 1.5, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Miroslav, etc. Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Laurence Payne - 27 May 11:43PM Hide picture People rave over Boulanger, but I don't find a lot of musical interest in the piece. Let's change the harmony AND the tune. The rhythm's a bit boring too. :-) Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Robert Enns - 28 May 12:52AM Hide picture Now this is more like it. https://youtu.be/FrYKb8H-UGA Or not? -- Rob Win 10 64 bit, 3.1 GHz, 8 Gigs RAM Sibelius 7.5, and Sibelius 8.2 Sibelius Sounds 7.1.2, NotePerformer, GPO4, GPO5 Photoscore 8.0.4 Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Adrian Drover - 28 May 07:21AM Hide picture Besides the fact that I hate to hear any clarinet notes that venture above the third harmonic (clarino) register, I find that utterly boring!!! Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Robert Enns - 28 May 11:53AM Hide picture That was my point. I was being sarcastic. I guess I need to be more obvious. So...I truly can't see why anyone would listen to this let alone compose it. Exploring what? I keep thinking of the Emperor' new clothes. -- Rob Win 10 64 bit, 3.1 GHz, 8 Gigs RAM Sibelius 7.5, and Sibelius 8.2 Sibelius Sounds 7.1.2, NotePerformer, GPO4, GPO5 Photoscore 8.0.4 Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Chris Crawley - 28 May 12:11PM Hide picture Hm. Michael Finnissy - "the new complexity". Not my cup of tea, really. Yet I have a feeling that Uzundara represents only one side of his output. He frequently seems to want to shock and confuse, however. -- Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer, Windows 8.1 64-bit, Intel Core i7 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100 Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Mike Lyons - 28 May 05:12PM Hide picture > People rave over Boulanger, but I don't find a lot of musical interest in the piece. Let's change the harmony AND the tune. The rhythm's a bit boring too. :-) I wish somebody would! -- Win 10 Pro, sib 6,7.5.1, 8.2, 8GB, 6TB, Focusright scarlett 6i6, Cubase 7.5, 8, 8.5, NotePerformer 1.5, EWQLSO, EWQLSC, Miroslav, etc. Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Adrian Drover - 28 May 05:50PM Hide picture Does the clarinettist's footwork and contortions have any influence over what comes out his instrument? Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Laurence Payne - 28 May 06:12PM Hide picture When I'm making noises like that, I find it hard to stand still too! I notice he didn't wait for his applause. -- FAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/sibelius.html If you want help with a score, attach the sib file! Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Rob Tuley - 28 May 10:15PM Hide picture > My first try looks very dry, as it copies too literally... still it would work Don't forget that pianists use the sustain pedal much more than most composers bother to indicate - if only because the details depend so much on the instruments and the acoustics of the hall that they are not worth notating. In that accompaniment, the pedal is probably used all the time. Somehow you have to imitate that sustained sound, but preserving **some** figuration - not necessarily anything close to a literal transcription of the piano notes - otherwise there is no "movement" at all in the quartet version of the accompaniment. -- Rob Sib 4.1, Windows 10. Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Laurence Payne - 28 May 10:57PM Hide picture Perhaps one of the string players could double on piano? :-) Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by James - 29 May 04:27AM Hide picture kbundles, If you can get a copy Kent Kennan's book, The Technique of Orchestration, maybe from your local library, check out chapter 11 Problems In Transcribing Piano Music. It specifically deals with arpeggiation figures that are idiomatic for piano yet a little tricky when transcribing to orchestra or string orchestra or string quartet. Basically, like Rob mentioned, you have to account for the pianist's use of the pedal so notes will often sustain longer than indicated. An alternative way to orchestrate this is to have some parts sustain block chords and others to play the arpeggio figuration. But that's not the only way. -- Mac OS 10.9 Mavericks Sibelius 6.2 Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by Adrian Drover - 29 May 07:43AM Hide picture Ideally, piano arps are best transcribed simultaneously in sustained and arpeggiated fashion. I like Laurence's example F above. Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by kbundies - 31 May 06:59PM Hide picture Dear James, I could get hold of a copy of this book, used and at a decent price. Thank you very much. > > If you can get a copy Kent Kennan's book, The Technique of Orchestration, maybe from your local library, check out chapter 11 Problems In Transcribing Piano Music. It specifically deals with arpeggiation figures that are idiomatic for piano yet a little tricky when transcribing to orchestra or string orchestra or string quartet. Basically, like Rob mentioned, you have to account for the pianist's use of the pedal so notes will often sustain longer than indicated. An alternative way to orchestrate this is to have some parts sustain block chords and others to play the arpeggio figuration. But that's not the only way. > -- Sibelius 8.2.0.89 on Mac OSX 10.11.4 Back to top | All threads

Re: arranging for String Quartet - how? Posted by James - 31 May 08:45PM Hide picture You're most welcome and good luck with your project. -- Mac OS 10.9 Mavericks Sibelius 6.2 Back to top | All threads