'Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3'

Messages in this thread

Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Joe @ Sibelius, 22 Apr 03:14PM
     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Cause, 22 Apr 03:21PM
         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Kenneth Gaw, 22 Apr 03:25PM
             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Joe @ Sibelius, 22 Apr 04:02PM
                 Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Ralph L. Bowers Jr., 22 Apr 04:25PM
                 Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Rob Tuley, 22 Apr 04:27PM
                     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Joe @ Sibelius, 22 Apr 04:29PM
                         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Laurence Payne, 24 Apr 01:03PM
             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Richard Vitale, 22 Apr 04:41PM
                 Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Bob Zawalich, 22 Apr 08:37PM
                     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Bob Zawalich, 22 Apr 08:39PM
                         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Ralph L. Bowers Jr., 22 Apr 09:17PM
                         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Richard Vitale, 29 Apr 05:14AM
                             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Bob Zawalich, 29 Apr 08:38AM
     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - bugbuster, 22 Apr 11:06PM
         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Kenneth Gaw, 23 Apr 04:24PM
             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Cause, 23 Apr 06:08PM
             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Patrick O'Keefe, 23 Apr 06:10PM
                 Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Stanley McKee, 23 Apr 06:43PM
                     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Ingvar Karkoff, 23 Apr 07:24PM
                         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Rob Catlender, 23 Apr 11:28PM
                             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Philip R, 24 Apr 12:54PM
                                 Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Joe @ Sibelius, 24 Apr 01:12PM
                                     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Laurence Payne, 24 Apr 01:21PM
                                         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Bob Zawalich, 24 Apr 03:53PM
                                             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Joe @ Sibelius, 26 Apr 03:15PM
                                 Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Dave P-B, 27 Apr 01:56PM
                                     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Venancio @ Avid, 28 Apr 12:08PM

Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Joe @ Sibelius - 22 Apr 03:14PM (edited 22 Apr 03:16PM)
Hi everyone,

We're working on Sibelius 8.3 and I'd like to get your opinion on one of the features.

As you may know, we introduced the ability to respell notes in parts and the full score independently of one another. With Sibelius 8.3, we've made this feature accessible from ManuScript, Sibelius' scripting language.

This gives us the opportunity to update Sibelius' shipping Respell Sharps as Flats and Respell Flats and Sharps plug-ins. I'd like to know which behaviour you prefer from these two options:


  1. Leave the shipping plug-ins as they are. Running the plug-in from either a part or the full score results in notes being respelt in both the full score and the part.

  2. Change the plug-ins so that, if you run them from a part, only the accidentals in the part are changed (resulting in a difference between part and full score). If you run the plug-in from the full score, then the accidentals are respelt in both full score and part.



Looking forward to hearing what you think.

Joe

--
Joe Pearson | Product Designer | Sibelius
www.sibelius.com, @joeapearson, joe.pearson@avid.com

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Cause - 22 Apr 03:21PM
I vote for #2.

--
Cause

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Kenneth Gaw - 22 Apr 03:25PM
Would it be possible to have both options and choose the one we want from the Preferences or some other dialog?

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Joe @ Sibelius - 22 Apr 04:02PM
Hi Kenneth,

In a future update we could add some UI to the plug-ins that asks the user what they'd like to do (with a do not show this again option).

Of course, you'll be able to write your own plug-in if you wish too, once the release is out.

Joe

--
Joe Pearson | Product Designer | Sibelius
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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 22 Apr 04:25PM
Both options would be nice, but if only one I'd use option 2.


Also Joe see attached. The Forum web page needs work please pass it on top the web development team.

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Attachment Forum upgrade needs work.png (160K)

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Rob Tuley - 22 Apr 04:27PM
If you make a non-optional change to the plugin behaviour, obviously it will be incompatible with earlier versions, which could lead to general confusion (1) when people upgrade, and (2) when exporting scores in an earlier Sib format.

Both those would be addressed with an option (preferably in the plugin, not hidden in Preferences).

If you are looking at a part and see accidentals that need to be respelled, it should be the user's choice whether to respell them in that part only, and/or in the score, **and/or also respell them in other parts the contain the same staff**.

But I suppose there is some consistency in continuing the design philosophy that "The nice programmers at Sibelius always know better than the user" - which goes back to at least Sib 2!

--
Rob

Sib 4.1, Windows 10.

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Joe @ Sibelius - 22 Apr 04:29PM
These are the only two options for now given our schedule. That doesn't rule out further development in the future of course.

--
Joe Pearson | Product Designer | Sibelius
www.sibelius.com, @joeapearson, joe.pearson@avid.com

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Laurence Payne - 24 Apr 01:03PM
> These are the only two options for now given our schedule. That doesn't rule out further development in the future of course.
>
> --

So if you can't fix it properly, leave it alone.

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Richard Vitale - 22 Apr 04:41PM
> Would it be possible to have both options and choose the one we want from the Preferences or some other dialog?<

I agree w/Kenneth as this new feature (which is really great BTY) could use an on/off in preferences.

Sometimes I am fixing accidentals in a non-transposing Part (such as piano or bass) as it is easier to do the work the Part than the Score but I would like to change accidentals in both Part and Score.
--
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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 22 Apr 08:37PM
I would very strongly suggest that the plugins behave as they have always done in the past. These have been around since the beginning of Sibelius and people know what to expect of them: Changing the spelling changes it both in the score and the parts.(Option 1).

If people decide that different spelling in often desirable in the score and parts (personally this seems insane to me so that may flavor my opinion), either create a new set of plugins that respell differently, or add options to the existing plugins in the future.

Please do not change the existing behavior of plugins people are accustomed to. This will end up with people printing out parts at the last minute that have unexpectedly different accidentals.

If you want to have this be a feature, make it an explicit feature. Leave the plugins as they are now and in a future release either add dialogs to the existing plugins with options for parts and score or add a new set of plugins that have the options.

I really vote for the latter because I think the likelihood of mistakes is really high if the behavior just changes. People do not read the update notes and they will forget.

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 8 G RAM. Year 2016.

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 22 Apr 08:39PM
If you would like, I would be willing to write a set of 8.3 and later only plugins that contain the options, and people could install them and try them out.

I really don't like option 2.

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 8 G RAM. Year 2016.

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 22 Apr 09:17PM
> If you would like, I would be willing to write a set of 8.3 and later only plugins that contain the options, and people could install them and try them out.
>
> I really don't like option 2.
>
> --
> Bob
>
> An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 8 G RAM. Year 2016.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Joe, it would be really foolish not to take Bob up on his offer.


--
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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Richard Vitale - 29 Apr 05:14AM
> If you would like, I would be willing to write a set of 8.3 and later only plugins that contain the options, and people could install them and try them out.
> Bob

Wow! If that happens Bob, pls include me in the testing!
--
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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 29 Apr 08:38AM
I really don't think we need the options. You just need to be careful to run the plugins in the full score when you want the old behavior. Since changing the accidentals in the part will change them only in the part anyway in 8.3, I really don't think it is that big a deal to worry about.

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 8 G RAM. Year 2016.

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by bugbuster - 22 Apr 11:06PM
When writing for a group with horns and rhythm instruments, some of my horn players like me to avoid sharps, while others want correct enharmonic spellings no matter what. So I like choice #2.

--
Misplaced jazz guitar player, would play chamber music on violin if could relive life, have retired from day job, composing chamber music and writing parts for a jazz group. Sibelius 7, Mac OS 10.7 aka Feral Cat.

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Kenneth Gaw - 23 Apr 04:24PM
I agree with Bob's comment about not changing the behaviour of an existing plugin. Ideally the plugin should be modified to offer the option indicated but if this is not possible it should behave in the same way as before.

I also think Bob's generous offer should be accepted.

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Cause - 23 Apr 06:08PM
Yeah, I've changed my mind. I also agree with Bob Z. I probably can't change my vote.

Long-standing behavior of an existing function should only be changed if there's a very good reason. This doesn't seem like a very good reason.

--
Cause

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Patrick O'Keefe - 23 Apr 06:10PM (edited 23 Apr 06:12PM)
I would suggest that those liking option #1 vote for it in the poll. Those making argument for #1 convinced me so I voted for it ... and that raised its count all the way up to 1. Either the poll is broken (a distinct possibility given recent behavior of this forum) or people aren't voting.

Correction: It's up to 2 now so maybe it was just slow in counting, but more than 2 people have spoke in favor of #1.

--
Patrick O'Keefe

Sib 7.5, GPO4, NotePerformer, lots of EWQL stuff
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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Stanley McKee - 23 Apr 06:43PM
I think Bob's suggestion is the best.

To have the option of using one or the other method seems
to better.

--
Stan McKee
MBPro 2.8 GHz 15'' 16 GB.RAM
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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Ingvar Karkoff - 23 Apr 07:24PM

Yes (after a second thought) it is best to leave the choice of respelling the
accidentals to the user.
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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Rob Catlender - 23 Apr 11:28PM
Please leave accidentals the same in score and parts.
I can't think of any reason why a conductor wants different accidentals in his score than the players in their parts.


--
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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Philip R - 24 Apr 12:54PM
> Please leave accidentals the same in score and parts.
> I can't think of any reason why a conductor wants different accidentals in his score than the players in their parts.

If you look at the attached example, there is a very good case for different spelling. Typically this would only be when there is a concert score and transposed parts.

To me, option 2 is better. Consistency between the plug-in and regular user behavior (pressing Return in a part) is more important to me than maintaining consistency with how the plug-in used to work in earlier versions.

Besides, the user will easily be able to see their results if they run the plug-in in a part - all the different notes will turn orange. If this isn't what was intended, then the user can always Undo or Reset, and run the plug-in from the score instead.

--
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Attachment enharmonic.png (529K)

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Joe @ Sibelius - 24 Apr 01:12PM
Thanks for your opinions so far everyone, it's been good to share a small part of our plan ahead of time (I think perhaps for the first time ever!).

As I say there are only two options for now because of scheduling. That doesn't rule out any number of options in the future.

JP
--
Joe Pearson | Product Designer | Sibelius
www.sibelius.com, @joeapearson, joe.pearson@avid.com

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Laurence Payne - 24 Apr 01:21PM
The main priority seems to be stopping Reset Design from throwing out all accidentals! Fix and test that properly, I'll be happy.

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 24 Apr 03:53PM (edited 24 Apr 04:39PM)
I have looked into this a bit more, and now I withdraw my objection to option 2.

As of 8.3, if you respell accidentals in a part it will only apply to the part. Since that will happen if you do it manually, I see no need for it to be different if you do it in a plug-in. As Philip says, consistency between user behavior and the plugin is a good idea.

So fine, if you run the plugin in a part it should only change the part.

I do think this feature is likely to cause as many problems as it will solve, so I am a bit concerned about people changing in parts accidentally, but that will happen regardless of what the plugins do.

I note also that non-shipping plugins that change accidentals are not likely to be changed to support this. The mechanism to change accidentals will be totally different than it was prior to 8.3 (and now much simpler!), so fairly significant rewriting would be required to support this feature. Downloadable plugins do not have the luxury of running on only one version of Sibelius, which the shipping plugins can do, so there would need to be version specific code to support this.

Sibelius should update all shipping plugins that change accidentals though, not just these 2.

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 8 G RAM. Year 2016.

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Joe @ Sibelius - 26 Apr 03:15PM (edited 27 Apr 03:02PM)
Hi everyone,

Thanks for getting involved. At the time of writing, it's 65% for and 35% against. You'll find this change in Sibelius 8.3.

Once we've released, do let me know how you get on with it. I'm very open to the idea of expanding the plug-in (or perhaps creating a complimentary AdvancedRespell plug-in with extra options) in the future.

I shall unpin this post now.

Joe

--
Joe Pearson | Product Designer | Sibelius
www.sibelius.com, @joeapearson, joe.pearson@avid.com

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Dave P-B - 27 Apr 01:56PM (edited 27 Apr 01:56PM)

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Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3
Posted by Venancio @ Avid - 28 Apr 12:08PM
Awesome!

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Messages in this thread

Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Joe @ Sibelius, 22 Apr 03:14PM
     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Cause, 22 Apr 03:21PM
         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Kenneth Gaw, 22 Apr 03:25PM
             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Joe @ Sibelius, 22 Apr 04:02PM
                 Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Ralph L. Bowers Jr., 22 Apr 04:25PM
                 Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Rob Tuley, 22 Apr 04:27PM
                     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Joe @ Sibelius, 22 Apr 04:29PM
                         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Laurence Payne, 24 Apr 01:03PM
             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Richard Vitale, 22 Apr 04:41PM
                 Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Bob Zawalich, 22 Apr 08:37PM
                     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Bob Zawalich, 22 Apr 08:39PM
                         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Ralph L. Bowers Jr., 22 Apr 09:17PM
                         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Richard Vitale, 29 Apr 05:14AM
                             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Bob Zawalich, 29 Apr 08:38AM
     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - bugbuster, 22 Apr 11:06PM
         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Kenneth Gaw, 23 Apr 04:24PM
             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Cause, 23 Apr 06:08PM
             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Patrick O'Keefe, 23 Apr 06:10PM
                 Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Stanley McKee, 23 Apr 06:43PM
                     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Ingvar Karkoff, 23 Apr 07:24PM
                         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Rob Catlender, 23 Apr 11:28PM
                             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Philip R, 24 Apr 12:54PM
                                 Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Joe @ Sibelius, 24 Apr 01:12PM
                                     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Laurence Payne, 24 Apr 01:21PM
                                         Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Bob Zawalich, 24 Apr 03:53PM
                                             Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Joe @ Sibelius, 26 Apr 03:15PM
                                 Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Dave P-B, 27 Apr 01:56PM
                                     Re: Respell accidentals plug-ins in Sibelius 8.3 - Venancio @ Avid, 28 Apr 12:08PM