Messages in this thread

Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 07 Jan 04:59AM
     Re: Apache Module for .sib files - James, 07 Jan 07:02AM
         Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Rob Tuley, 07 Jan 07:47AM
             Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Steve, 07 Jan 03:24PM
                 Re: Apache Module for .sib files - James, 07 Jan 03:42PM
                     Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 07 Jan 04:13PM
                         Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 07 Jan 08:39PM
                             Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 07 Jan 09:56PM
                                 Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 07 Jan 10:01PM
                                 Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 07 Jan 10:10PM
                                     Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 07 Jan 10:24PM
                                         Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 07 Jan 10:42PM
                                             Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 07 Jan 10:48PM
                                                 Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 08 Jan 02:57AM
                                                     Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Chris Crawley, 08 Jan 09:50AM
                                                         Re: Apache Module for .sib files - James, 08 Jan 05:48PM
                                                             Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 08 Jan 08:09PM
                                                         Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 08 Jan 09:11PM
                                                             Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Laurence Payne, 08 Jan 11:53PM
                                                                 Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Peter Roos, 10 Jan 01:35AM
                                                                 Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Patrick O'Keefe, 11 Jan 12:10AM
                                                                     Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 11 Jan 11:12AM
                                                                         Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 11 Jan 11:13AM

Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Robert Walliczek - 07 Jan 04:59AM
To Whom It May Concern:

I would like to develop an Apache module for parsing and displaying .sib files on the server. I understand that there is a client-side browser plug-in, Scorch, which lets the downloaded .sib files be displayed. By making an Apache module for .sib files, one would no longer need to send the actual .sib file to the clients. I have made an Apache module for another binary file format, and I would like to make something similar for Sibelius documents. I would include something like a preview image of the score, options to browse it and statistical information about it, and so forth. And a direct file download link would be available, which would of course allow functionality with Scorch.

In order to make an Apache module, I would need to understand the structure of the .sib file format.

I sent a message to Avid Support about this, and they recommended that I start a thread here with my idea.

Thank you for your consideration. If someone would simply enlighten me with information about how the data in .sib files is organized, I would be able to proceed with the module development and contribute my work to Avid.

Sincerely,
Robert Walliczek

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by James - 07 Jan 07:02AM (edited 07 Jan 07:03AM)
> In order to make an Apache module, I would need to understand the structure of the .sib file format.

Exactly and how will you do that with a proprietary file format? One that changes (at least slightly) with each major version of Sib?

Can't one just display a pdf of the score or make it available for download?

--
Mac OS 10.9 Mavericks
Sibelius 6.2

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Rob Tuley - 07 Jan 07:47AM
> I sent a message to Avid Support about this, and they recommended that I start a thread here with my idea.

Ever heard the phrases "passing the buck" and "kicking the can down the road?"

AFAIK the .sib file format has always been proprietary and undocumented.

Given the state of Avid's software development team (as far as I can tell from outside, somewhere between dysfunctional and non-existent) you might be better off building a module to handle MusicXML files.

--
Rob

Sib 4.1, Windows 7.

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Steve - 07 Jan 03:24PM
Your idea is noble, Avid's response is typical rubbish to the point of hilarity, and the points above are valid. Forget about a proprietary format that will be soon obsolete anyway and focus on a standard format for the most useful results. I wish you luck in your endeavor.

--
Sibelius 7.1.3, iMac - Snow Leopard 2015.
http://ComposersofSibelius.com

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by James - 07 Jan 03:42PM
There are only two ways this could happen.

1) You make a deal with Avid to work for them (probably) as an independent contractor, sign an NDA, and they agree to provide you with the file format.

Or 2) You spend an inordinate amount of time trying to reverse engineer the file format.

If 1) is a possibility and they sent you here to determine if there is any demand, then I suggest you explain better how this could benefit the user.

--
Mac OS 10.9 Mavericks
Sibelius 6.2

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Joe @ Sibelius - 07 Jan 04:13PM
Hi Robert,

To cover some other points raised: the Sibelius file format is proprietary, and I recommend against reverse engineering it.

Now, on to your question: what it sounds like is you want a way of converting Sibelius files into images on the fly via some sort of API. That's exactly what Sibelius | Cloud Publishing does. Sibelius | Cloud Publishing is the successor to Scorch, which we'll be bringing to individual users soon. It's essentially a REST API that allows you to create interactive, HTML5 (i.e. no plug-in) views of your scores in PDF, SCO, SIB and MusicXML formats.

Currently we don't have APIs for you to access the raw image data (we provide instances of an interactive viewer that allows you to view, playback and transpose the score). Providing raw access to the data is something we've been thinking about.

I'd like to know more about what you're trying to build; please do e-mail me or reply to this thread.

Re. Apache module - that's an interesting approach, although practically speaking I don't think Sibelius' performance is quite up to scratch at the moment to make this worth while.

Best wishes,

Joe

--
Joe Pearson | Product Designer | Sibelius
www.sibelius.com, @joeapearson, joe.pearson@avid.com

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Robert Walliczek - 07 Jan 08:39PM
> > In order to make an Apache module, I would need to understand the structure of the .sib file format.
>
> Exactly and how will you do that with a proprietary file format? One that changes (at least slightly) with each major version of Sib?
>
> Can't one just display a pdf of the score or make it available for download?

This would be in the same way that one would make a program that can read and write more than one file format.

The display of the sheet music in PDF format would actually rely upon the browser to be able to display PDF files. Also, one could just print the PDF of the music then, which is still too close to directly sharing the .sib music file, as far as the feature of lack of reproduction. I think that displaying the engraving can be done without necessarily sharing the engraving in a printable way, even if someone takes a screenshot.

The download of the sheet music in PDF format is not a feature that would necessarily benefit specifically from making an Apache module, as such a conversion could be done without using an Apache module.

----------

> > I sent a message to Avid Support about this, and they recommended that I start a thread here with my idea.
>
> Ever heard the phrases "passing the buck" and "kicking the can down the road?"
>
> AFAIK the .sib file format has always been proprietary and undocumented.
>
> Given the state of Avid's software development team (as far as I can tell from outside, somewhere between dysfunctional and non-existent) you might be better off building a module to handle MusicXML files.

I was satisfied with the response from Avid Support, although I appreciate your sympathetic point. Here was the response for your assessment:

"Hi,

This is Josh from Sibelius tech support. I would like to assist you with your Sibelius inquiry. I would recommend that you post your ideas on the Forum and get feedback there, (as Joe Pearson has some web presence there) or contact a nearest local Avid office.

http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?groupid=3

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance to you.

Best regards,
Josh"

You see, I have a web server, and I am working towards documenting file structures, even proprietary ones, as I have reverse-engineered them (that is, studied them). Now, reverse-engineering stigmas and copyright laws are not always the best approach for The Information Highway. Sharing information is not necessarily a bad thing, or unwise. One must ascertain the benefits and potential abuses of the information and weigh them. In the situation with data file types, usually no harm results from publishing their structures. So in my estimation, proprietary file types like the .sib file format only benefits from publishing their structures. But companies make their own decisions, usually regardless of potential. My offer to develop an Apache module is given with the implication that Avid should regard potential for making Sibelius more popular.

MusicXML is insufficient, although I accept the suggestion and will probably put that on my plate as a result of you suggesting it. Frankly, I would prefer making my own binary format for music rather than parsing a text file. If I cannot use .sib, which in my estimation is of a smaller file size than Finale's .mus files, then I will make my own format for music data and publish the format specification along with my Apache module to increase its potential.

----------

> Your idea is noble, Avid's response is typical rubbish to the point of hilarity, and the points above are valid. Forget about a proprietary format that will be soon obsolete anyway and focus on a standard format for the most useful results. I wish you luck in your endeavor.

Thank you for the compliment. I must admit, the users of this forum are much more friendly than I have experienced on a number of other forums. You can see what I wrote previously in this reply.

----------

> There are only two ways this could happen.
>
> 1) You make a deal with Avid to work for them (probably) as an independent contractor, sign an NDA, and they agree to provide you with the file format.
>
> Or 2) You spend an inordinate amount of time trying to reverse engineer the file format.
>
> If 1) is a possibility and they sent you here to determine if there is any demand, then I suggest you explain better how this could benefit the user.

I would be willing to sign a non-disclosure agreement, but while my work would be free, I would expect to have the Apache module provided by Avid for free just like Scorch is freely available. Terms are negotiable regarding contractual agreements.

I spent some time looking at the .sib file structure already and did a bare minimum amount of effort in reverse-engineering it, with no valuable results.

----------

> Hi Robert,
>
> To cover some other points raised: the Sibelius file format is proprietary, and I recommend against reverse engineering it.
>
> Now, on to your question: what it sounds like is you want a way of converting Sibelius files into images on the fly via some sort of API. That's exactly what Sibelius | Cloud Publishing does. Sibelius | Cloud Publishing is the successor to Scorch, which we'll be bringing to individual users soon. It's essentially a REST API that allows you to create interactive, HTML5 (i.e. no plug-in) views of your scores in PDF, SCO, SIB and MusicXML formats.
>
> Currently we don't have APIs for you to access the raw image data (we provide instances of an interactive viewer that allows you to view, playback and transpose the score). Providing raw access to the data is something we've been thinking about.
>
> I'd like to know more about what you're trying to build; please do e-mail me or reply to this thread.
>
> Re. Apache module - that's an interesting approach, although practically speaking I don't think Sibelius' performance is quite up to scratch at the moment to make this worth while.

Thank you for your consideration.

Using a server-side functionality such as a module for the Apache web server software is advantageous. The most notable difference between your description of Sibelius Cloud Publishing and making an Apache module is that an Apache module could be used on any web server, downloadable by anyone and potentially customizable by them. This decentralization I think is necessary, especially when it comes to privacy and issues of trust.

I would like to have more of an open-ended potetial for data display than would be available with an esoteric viewer presentation. The customizability of an Apache module's display options would be better received by users. I mean that the potential variety of information and presentation formats should not be reduced to a single option of display in a viewer. For example, how would you display the file size of the .sib file, or the statistics like number of instruments, ranges, and other calculated data, musical and otherwise, or display the score as a PNG image with a watermark over it, as examples? These kinds of information may seem extraneous to Avid, but very useful to some users of an Apache module for their servers.

I will not present every conceivable advantage that can be argued. The whole purpose to making something customizable is to keep potential relatively available. And considering that there exists more than one computer on The Internet, making a proprietary cloud hosting service is quite stifling of potential. So I suppose it boils down to this question: would you prefer potential or a quick buck?

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Joe @ Sibelius - 07 Jan 09:56PM
Hi Robert,

> I mean that the potential variety of information and presentation formats should not be reduced to a single option of display in a viewer.

That's true. We're only on version 1.4 of our Sibelius Cloud Publishing API. At the time of creation, we really needed something to directly replace Scorch, hence it's fairly well focused on Sibelius score -> interactive viewer at the moment.

Sibelius | Cloud Publishing consists of a series of micro services, tied together by the Sibelius | Cloud Publishing API. The musical "brain" is in fact a fully fledged headless copy of Sibelius (a command line version of Sibelius as it were). Internally, we exchange all the metadata that you have seen in Sibelius itself. What we haven't done is expose this data via any API (yet). I'd be happy to discuss your needs and see what we can do though. Essentially, any piece of data that Sibelius can access within a score is now exposable via our API, and although some development effort is involved, it's fairly easy to do so.

The issue of data protection is important too; we've got a robust system and a dedicated team managed to infrastructure and security. I can go into more detail if you wish. We don't even store the .sib file at the moment (although we are considering making this change with the permission of our customers so we can provide a richer API, as discussed above). Ultimately, as you point out, there is nothing as secure as keeping a file within your own walls of course.

As it happens, Sibelius | Cloud Publishing does have a watermark function, but I take your point - what you need is flexibility, and that's the ultimate aim of Sibelius | Cloud Publishing.

As I say, I believe there are performance reasons why an apache module isn't as simple or suitable solution as you might think. The infrastructure involved in providing timely renderings, in multiple formats, of Sibelius scores is actually very complex.
--
Joe Pearson | Product Designer | Sibelius
www.sibelius.com, @joeapearson, joe.pearson@avid.com

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Joe @ Sibelius - 07 Jan 10:01PM
Robert,

> Now, reverse-engineering stigmas and copyright laws are not always the best approach for The Information Highway.

I agree, and that's why I'd like our API to be as flexible as possible as we build on it.

I'll just add that the realm of legal matters when it comes to reverse engineering of technology is vastly beyond my area of expertise and influence in the company. The Sibelius license agreement expressly forbids users from doing this. I recommend against it.

That said, I'm certainly keen to continue the discussion to understand your thoughts and needs better.

Joe

--
Joe Pearson | Product Designer | Sibelius
www.sibelius.com, @joeapearson, joe.pearson@avid.com

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Robert Walliczek - 07 Jan 10:10PM
I have my own music publishing company, and I use Sibelius to engrave music. I have my own dedicated server also. I would like a setup where I can upload the .sib files to my dedicated server and display them as I like along with various information -- information in ways that I suspect Sibelius is not programmed to find relevant and therefore does not "perceive". For example, statistics about collections of scores from a particular composer; Sibelius does not perceive batches of .sib files and organize them by composer, or scan a directory for changes, so to speak. So there's a lot more web-server-like behavior that could be programmed into this than what I suspect would even be considered by Avid.

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Joe @ Sibelius - 07 Jan 10:24PM
I see, so you want to be able to effectively use a collection of Sibelius files as a database to drive the rest of your site?

What kind of multi-Sib file statistics would you want to see?

Joe

--
Joe Pearson | Product Designer | Sibelius
www.sibelius.com, @joeapearson, joe.pearson@avid.com

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Robert Walliczek - 07 Jan 10:42PM
I would like to be able to make a program that can analyze multiple .sib files and organize all the information stored therein along with unorthodox analyses of that information, with the ability to customize which information is displayed. I guess this means a standardized approach is unsuitable, and a single, third-party hosting provider is unsuitable for my purposes, as I would be parsing .sib files that are on my computer. Whether the information is stored in a database, or whether the information is parsed into a database-like file, would be something that would not necessarily be a requirement, since the Apache module, in my case, would be used to interpret the .sib file and present information according to user configurations in something like HTML with PNG images which would be native to every web browser.

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Joe @ Sibelius - 07 Jan 10:48PM
Can you give me some more specific examples Robert?

--
Joe Pearson | Product Designer | Sibelius
www.sibelius.com, @joeapearson, joe.pearson@avid.com

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Robert Walliczek - 08 Jan 02:57AM (edited 08 Jan 04:23AM)
It seems like you are asking me what ideas I have for the Apache module in an attempt to apply my ideas to the Cloud Publishing project. I regret that I cannot provide specific details that will relate to your project until I have the following information:

1. Documentation for the file structure of .sib. Without this information, I would have no basis for formulating a logical use of the data, since I do not actually know what the data is. It would be like telling me to write a piece for your musical ensemble, but not telling me what kind of ensemble it is. I don't know what I'm dealing with, specifically, so I cannot provide a concrete example for you.

2. Knowledge of the context of, specifically, what the Cloud Publishing is, programmatically-speaking. Without this information, I have no idea if what my ideas for an Apache module is would be relevant or worth mentioning.

So I cannot give more specific examples without having any example data or knowledge of context.

An Apache module, like I was explaining, would be the Apache server's way of handling the .sib file type. As an example, say you have a binary file (non-text file) that contains a PNG image. The server sends the raw data to the client, and the client web browser recognizes the image data and displays it, basically. It's the same premise with .sib files: if the browser gets the message that it's a binary data stream, then the client downloads the file rather than attempt to display it (as it would attempt to display a text file, resulting in gibberish text on the screen). But when the server has a module that handles the .sib file format, the module acts as a little program that takes the given file and works its magic however it's programmed to do so, and then sends HTML, for example, to the web browser. So instead of sending the .sib file to the browser, the server module generates a nice, user-friendly web page with something like a preview PNG image, some statistics about the .sib file, and whatever else the server owner chooses to have in their customization of the Apache module C code. An Apache module is just a C program that the server uses, in this case, to interpret requests for .sib files, so that when the client goes to a .sib file link, instead of downloading the .sib file, they see a nifty web page with stats and a preview and a link to download the .sib file using the default binary stream.

That's really all you need to know to understand what I want to achieve with this, and that's all I can really say that remains directly relevant to this topic.

I would give an example of my previous Apache module, but it's rather private and unrelated to music. But imagine, for a simpler example, a server module that handles Microsoft Word .doc files in this way: when you click on a link for a .txt file or a .jpg image file, your browser just displays the text or image, and when you click on a .doc file link in your browser, it just downloads the .doc file for you to open in MS Word... but instead of downloading the MS Word .doc file, the Apache module processes the .doc file you requested and sends the info in a nicely-formatted web page in HTML with CSS. So in your web browser, you would be "viewing" the .doc file, as far as you could tell.

That's the idea I have for .sib files: instead of being handed the .sib file, you are handed an HTML page, which might include a PNG rendering of the score and various statistics about the file, including a separate link to download the file.

That's the kind of thing I've done already with a non-music-related binary file format, and I would like to do this with .sib files because I think .sib files are worth investing in, in this way.

I hope I am clear. If you would like, however, I could show you the example of the Apache module I made. You wouldn't understand it, because it is esoteric and unrelated to music, but in essence, it would be entirely possible with this approach to "remake" Sibelius as a web platform, which is akin to what you were saying with the Cloud Publishing situation which runs a command-line version of Sibelius. Well take that, and give it an HTML + CSS + JavaScript kind of display, and make it functional as a .sib file handler for a web server, and that is essentially the same thing as what could be done with an Apache module.

Also, consider how clunky and slow client plug-ins behave in a web browser. Web browsers do not have native file support for anything besides "HTML", so-to-speak. So parsing a .sib file and sending its information to the web browser as "HTML" is much smoother an experience for the clients, not to mention the fact that you could basically embed such a feature alongside other software, since it would run on the Apache software. Imagine viewing music files on facebook.com, or as search results within a Google search page. That's not something that Sibelius Cloud Publishing would achieve, that is something that an Apache module would achieve. A Google web search filter as "search sheet music", like Google's "search images", is what you could have in this situation, and what you would NOT have with cloud hosting. And those are simply "through-composed" ideas, just off the top of my head! The potential is much greater than what Sibelius Cloud Publishing would attain.

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Chris Crawley - 08 Jan 09:50AM
I don't really understand much of the above, but would like to add that some (many?) of us here are not confident about the long-term future of Sibelius - although from a commercial point of view, it's probably got some years of life left (maybe not too many) before it's overtaken by a certain program that's still in development. That's what some (many?) of us believe, anyway. Robert's energies might be better directed elsewhere.

--
Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer, Windows 8.1 64-bit, Intel Core i7 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by James - 08 Jan 05:48PM (edited 08 Jan 05:49PM)
The Sibelius file format and the code base are Avid's most valuable and proprietary intellectual property, with respect to Sibelius. Why would they hand that over to someone outside their company? They are the company's trade secrets which allow them to make a profit on their product.

Other things you can't have include free access to bank vaults, permission to walk into anyone's house when you feel like it, knowledge of where nuclear weapons are located and how to build them, etc.

Sib exports various graphic formats which can be incorporated into web pages. Sib provides a plugin language that will give you access to limited data in a .sib document. You can access quite a bit. You can't access everything.

Welcome to a world where there are boundaries.

--
Mac OS 10.9 Mavericks
Sibelius 6.2

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Robert Walliczek - 08 Jan 08:09PM
> The Sibelius file format and the code base are Avid's most valuable and proprietary intellectual property, with respect to Sibelius. Why would they hand that over to someone outside their company? They are the company's trade secrets which allow them to make a profit on their product.
>
> [...]
>
> Sib exports various graphic formats which can be incorporated into web pages. Sib provides a plugin language that will give you access to limited data in a .sib document. You can access quite a bit. You can't access everything.

----------

The document format of a program is not the most valuable aspect of the program. It is the program itself, which people pay money to use, which is "valuable" to the company. But even greater than a program's value is the value of the potential of a program. It is the same with a field of work: Music is greater than the work of any one musician contributing to it. The potential and future of Sibelius is greater than the program itself, because it is not the program that people envision and work towards, but the vision goal is based upon what is seen as the potential. Sibelius does not drive motivation to compose music, it is the motivation to compose music that drives the future of Sibelius, and it is the future of Sibelius that motivates the program's development. In order to make progress, you have to recognize the difference between stagnation and motivation.

I have motivation, and that's why I am willing to include the precedent of Sibelius in my work. However, Sibelius is not the motivation for my work. I do not "need" Avid's permission or blessing to find motivation to do what I do.

Therefore, it is not the file format of .sib nor the code base that are Avid's most valuable intellectual property, rather, it is their basis of motivation for pursuing development of Sibelius -- and that's not money, but the recognition of each user's desire to be able to engrave music nicely. If there ceases to be this desire to engrave music nicely, Sibelius -- and Avid -- are dead fish in the water.

Why would they hand it over to someone outside their company? Because they know what potential means, and they value the contributions of their users. It's really a simple argument that needs no defense. You accept help in furthering your primary ambitions because you're smart, that's why.

They profit from the sale of the program, not from the sale of the document format. Microsoft Word reads .txt files, and other programs read .doc files. Adobe Acrobat reads .pdf files, and so do free programs. A company does not "sell" their commercial programs' file formats, they sell the programs which they make capable to use those file formats, both publicly specified formats and privately used formats. Avid makes no money from its .sib file format being private. They sure do lose a lot of potential that way, though.

Regarding what Sibelius already supports, let's just say that there are superior options and that Sibelius needs improvement. That is why the program is still in development, so it can improve.

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Robert Walliczek - 08 Jan 09:11PM
> I don't really understand much of the above, but would like to add that some (many?) of us here are not confident about the long-term future of Sibelius - although from a commercial point of view, it's probably got some years of life left (maybe not too many) before it's overtaken by a certain program that's still in development. That's what some (many?) of us believe, anyway. Robert's energies might be better directed elsewhere.

----------

Which program still in development do you plan to use instead of Sibelius?

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Laurence Payne - 08 Jan 11:53PM
> Which program still in development do you plan to use instead of Sibelius?

The notation program currently being developed by Steinberg, who hired many of the old London-based Sibelius team after Avid got rid of them.

There's no reason to be coy about saying that here. We can also mention Finale, MuseScore, Lilypond, Score and any other competitor of Sibelius if we wish.

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Peter Roos - 10 Jan 01:35AM
Robert, I don't understand what Apache is but my recommendation is that you get in touch with Joe Pearson directly and be ready to make a business presentation, and sign a non-disclosure agreement with Avid --- so Joe can present it to the appropriate Avid business people for approval.

That's the way it works in the corporate world.

--
Peter Roos
www.summeroflovemusic.com
IMDb: www.imdb.com/name/nm2039241

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Patrick O'Keefe - 11 Jan 12:10AM
> > Which program still in development do you plan to use instead of Sibelius?
>
> The notation program currently being developed by Steinberg, who hired many of the old London-based Sibelius team after Avid got rid of them.
>
And *that* is the reason the Sibelius intellectual property is Avid's most valuable resource when comes to Sibelius. There is not a spec of Sibelius internals that is not known by the Steinberg developers (except for maybe the trivial bits added in version 8), but they cannot use any of that knowledge. Were Avid to make the specs for the .sib format available, the Steinberg product would soon be able to read .sib files, and, once the Steinberg product became stable, Avid would lose nearly all of the its Sibelius customer base. Avid's keeping that file format proprietary is the only thing that will (or at least MIGHT) keep Sibelius alive.


--
Patrick O'Keefe

Sib 7.5, GPO4, NotePerformer, lots of EWQL stuff
Win7 x64 Pro Intel i7-4771, 3.50Ghz, 16GB RAM

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Joe @ Sibelius - 11 Jan 11:12AM
The .sib file format is intimately tied, as you might expect, to the Sibelius code itself. Both are complex.

If we were to provide the Sibelius file format to anyone, it wouldn't suddenly be possible to draw a score. You need the intelligence and institutional knowledge of music notation that is the Sibelius codebase in order to make sense of it. In other words - .sib isn't like a .jpg file, which can be thought of as a static representation of an image (sort of!). A lot of the "metadata" that one may want from a score isn't stored in the .sib directly; it's all calculated by Sibelius itself.

I'm interested to know more about possible use cases but as it stands I am still not convinced that it's technically feasible.

--
Joe Pearson | Product Designer | Sibelius
www.sibelius.com, @joeapearson, joe.pearson@avid.com

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Re: Apache Module for .sib files
Posted by Joe @ Sibelius - 11 Jan 11:13AM
> Robert, I don't understand what Apache is but my recommendation is that you get in touch with Joe Pearson directly and be ready to make a business presentation, and sign a non-disclosure agreement with Avid --- so Joe can present it to the appropriate Avid business people for approval.

> That's the way it works in the corporate world.

Correct.

--
Joe Pearson | Product Designer | Sibelius
www.sibelius.com, @joeapearson, joe.pearson@avid.com

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(.sib, .png and .jpg only)

Messages in this thread

Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 07 Jan 04:59AM
     Re: Apache Module for .sib files - James, 07 Jan 07:02AM
         Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Rob Tuley, 07 Jan 07:47AM
             Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Steve, 07 Jan 03:24PM
                 Re: Apache Module for .sib files - James, 07 Jan 03:42PM
                     Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 07 Jan 04:13PM
                         Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 07 Jan 08:39PM
                             Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 07 Jan 09:56PM
                                 Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 07 Jan 10:01PM
                                 Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 07 Jan 10:10PM
                                     Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 07 Jan 10:24PM
                                         Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 07 Jan 10:42PM
                                             Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 07 Jan 10:48PM
                                                 Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 08 Jan 02:57AM
                                                     Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Chris Crawley, 08 Jan 09:50AM
                                                         Re: Apache Module for .sib files - James, 08 Jan 05:48PM
                                                             Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 08 Jan 08:09PM
                                                         Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Robert Walliczek, 08 Jan 09:11PM
                                                             Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Laurence Payne, 08 Jan 11:53PM
                                                                 Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Peter Roos, 10 Jan 01:35AM
                                                                 Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Patrick O'Keefe, 11 Jan 12:10AM
                                                                     Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 11 Jan 11:12AM
                                                                         Re: Apache Module for .sib files - Joe @ Sibelius, 11 Jan 11:13AM