'Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano notes'

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Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano notes - sshock, 24 Aug 04:46AM
     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - Andy G, 24 Aug 08:19AM
         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - Rob Tuley, 24 Aug 10:56AM
             Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - Laurence Payne, 24 Aug 11:12AM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - sshock, 26 Aug 04:02AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - Andy G, 26 Aug 08:07AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - Rob Tuley, 26 Aug 02:43PM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - Robert Enns, 26 Aug 03:27PM

Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano notes
Posted by sshock - 24 Aug 04:46AM (edited 24 Aug 04:46AM)
The default piano instrument in Sibelius First Sounds seems to have a little bit of built-in reverb on the high notes, F6 and above.

I can tell very distinctly that E6 has no reverb but F6 has a good 3 seconds that you can hear it for after letting go of the note. That's a dramatic difference.

This is with all reverb settings turned off, both in play -> performance and in the mixer. And the reverb indeed is off on all notes except for F6 and above.

This only affects the default piano instrument (concert grand piano?). I have tried several other instruments and they don't have any reverb (unless I turn on reverb of course.)

I can only assume this is built into the actual piano samples. If I had to take a guess, I would say maybe it is a totally different sample that gets used for the notes F6 and above?

Can anyone confirm this problem and tell me of any solution or workaround? Thanks!
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano notes
Posted by Andy G - 24 Aug 08:19AM (edited 24 Aug 08:23AM)
Remember that on a real piano, F6 (or maybe F#6) and above don't have dampers so they'll naturally ring on. It's not reverb, just part of the piano sound. The ring isn't long, and gets shorter the higher you go up the keyboard. The undamped notes also sound as resonant harmonics of notes/chords played lower on the keyboard.

Better quality software pianos will therefore have undamped samples from F6 upwards, though you'll have to pay out a bit to get the sympathetic resonance effects.

I've heard some low quality software pianos add reverb to high notes instead of having high undamped samples, but that was a long time ago. Are you using Sibelius First's own sounds or the computer's General MIDI sounds.

In short, it's natural and should sound normal. There's no workaround, nor should there really be one.



--
PC: Q6700@3.2GHz,4GB RAM.Win 7. M-Audio 2496 + Terratec DMX6Fire USB. Sib 6.2 and 7.1.3. Web: www.andrew-gilbert.com
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano notes
Posted by Rob Tuley - 24 Aug 10:56AM (edited 24 Aug 10:57AM)
This can be an irritation on real pianos as well, especially in passages that only use one (i.e. the lowest pitched) undamped note with the other notes damped. The cure for that is to write for the real instrument, not an idealized one.

The note at which the undamped strings begin varies slightly between different makes of piano, and tends to be lower on older instruments.

In a way, this problem is caused by modern piano designs and construction techniques being "too good" and creating excessive resonance. Beethoven (who was himself a pianist) marked long passages to be played with the sustain pedal down (including an entire movement in one piano sonata!) which would be musical nonsense if played that way on a modern instrument. There are accounts (dated around 1850) of Schumann improvising with the sustain pedal held permanently down as well.

--
Rob

Sib 4.1, Windows 7.
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano notes
Posted by Laurence Payne - 24 Aug 11:12AM
So we can blame Schumann for originating "New age" meandering? ☺
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano notes
Posted by sshock - 26 Aug 04:02AM
Oh, I can't believe I forgot about this. And I've been playing piano for what, 30 years now? Sheesh...

I just tested and sure enough, even my Clavinova reproduces the effect of undamped notes, which it starts at G6.

Sorry I called it reverb; I just wasn't exactly sure what was going on so I thought it was reverb. But yeah, it is definitely just the sound of notes being allowed to ring out naturally.

I'm using Sibelius First's own sounds, which I just installed recently. I guess that's why I just barely noticed it, because before I was using general midi sounds, which don't do that.

So yeah, now my sounds are much more natural / normal. I just don't know why it bugs me; why didn't it bug me in the last 30 years!?

Maybe my volume is up too loud :)
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano notes
Posted by Andy G - 26 Aug 08:07AM
It's a very different aural experience sitting down at a piano and playing a computer simulation, especially if your speakers are close to you or you're wearing headphones.

--
PC: Q6700@3.2GHz,4GB RAM.Win 7. M-Audio 2496 + Terratec DMX6Fire USB. Sib 6.2 and 7.1.3. Web: www.andrew-gilbert.com
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano notes
Posted by Rob Tuley - 26 Aug 02:43PM
I used to know somebody who had an ancient 6 foot grand (built about 1900 - can't remember the maker) which was a splendid instrument, except that the first undamped note was F6. The break in timbre between E6 and F6 was horrendous, but there was no way to add an extra damper or two. There was a bar in the iron frame between E6 and F6, and no way to extend the damper mechanism past it.

I once ended up playing a whole piece transposed down a semitone, to record it live without playing those **** F6s!

--
Rob

Sib 4.1, Windows 7.
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Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano notes
Posted by Robert Enns - 26 Aug 03:27PM
I have a Yamaha C7 and the first undamped note is F#6 if middle C is C4. There isn't any really terrible break between F and F# although you can hear the difference with slow individual notes. Actually they could have added one more damper before a bar gets in the way.

--
Rob
Win 10 64 bit, 3.1 GHz, 8 Gigs RAM
Sibelius 7.5, Sibelius Sounds 7.1.2, NotePerformer, GPO4, Photoscore 8.0.4
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Messages in this thread

Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano notes - sshock, 24 Aug 04:46AM
     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - Andy G, 24 Aug 08:19AM
         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - Rob Tuley, 24 Aug 10:56AM
             Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - Laurence Payne, 24 Aug 11:12AM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - sshock, 26 Aug 04:02AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - Andy G, 26 Aug 08:07AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - Rob Tuley, 26 Aug 02:43PM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1.3: Built-in reverb on high piano n... - Robert Enns, 26 Aug 03:27PM