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Sib 8: definitely not mature - David Beattie, 28 Jun 11:48PM
     Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Tony Wakefield, 29 Jun 09:22AM
         Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Adrian Drover, 29 Jun 09:50AM
         Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Roy Moore, 29 Jun 10:10AM
     Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Sam at Sibelius, 29 Jun 10:35AM
         Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Mike Lyons, 29 Jun 04:02PM
             Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Roy Moore, 29 Jun 04:52PM
         Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - David Beattie, 29 Jun 06:12PM
             Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Jim Williams, 30 Jun 05:23AM
                 Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Roy Moore, 30 Jun 05:48AM

Sib 8: definitely not mature
Posted by David Beattie - 28 Jun 11:48PM (edited 28 Jun 11:55PM)
Dear Sibelius,

I am a Sibelius power-user, and I've been using it since Sibelius 2. I currently own Sibelius 6.

I also am an early adopter of touch screen technology, and unlike the vast majority of complainers on this and other forums, I WANT the touch screen and pen features and feel that this is a significant upgrade. So I was really looking forward to using Sibelius 8, and hoping to buy it. Of course I'm being careful and I downloaded a trial version first.

Unfortunately... in just a couple hours of playing around with Sibelius 8, trying to use it in my standard workflow I'm familiar with from Sibelius 6, I've found a few flaws. I will list them here. I'm not sure yet if they are significant enough I can't buy the software as is... I will still keep testing it out and make my decision after the 30 day trial, probably.

1. Touch screen zooming: I'm not a fan of the new tabbed part display in general... I use a lot of parts and wish that I wouldn't have so many parts open all at once. But it's fine, and I could probably get used to it, or maybe there's an option to only open one part at a time. But I'm not complaining about that. It's just a design decision, and I would get used to it soon. BUT if I close a score and then re-open Sibelius, it opens all the parts that were open before (that's okay), and ONLY the first part that is displayed responds to the touch zoom gesture. All the other parts ignore the pinch and stretch to zoom when I switch to them. The workaround I've found is to switch to a completely different application, then back to Sibelius... and then the stretch to zoom starts working again... and only on the one tab that's currently highlighted. Or, I could close and re-open the parts that I want to use with stretch-to-zoom.

2. None of the available "Reset" commands will synchronize the cue size option of a note in a part with the full score. To be fair, there was no "Reset" for his under Sibelius 6 either. I didn't realize this until I tested it for this message, so it's obviously not a regression... but it's something that would be nice to fix in the future under "Reset Design" in my opinion.

3. The new "Ribbon" (of course held over from Sibelius 7, which I've never used), is not as easy to use with the keyboard as under Sibelius 6. "Filter" no longer has letters underlined for each possible filter, and doesn't respond to the keyboard letters to choose a filter. I use a lot of filtering in my workflow, and using up/down arrows for choosing a filter is imprecise and slow. I would ether have to add keyboard shortcuts for each of the 4-5 filters that I use all the time, or use a pointing interface to choose them (mouse, touch, pen). Similarly, the loss of the menu has meant losing the "Next Part" and "Previous Part" menu items, since these were not included in the ribbon. Fortunately they are still available to assign to keyboard shortcuts... just means I have to memorize a keyboard shortcut for these commands, compared to a menu that showed me visually what the keyboard shortcut would be, and since the ribbon can't be customized (am I right about this?), any command like "Next Part" that isn't on the Ribbon can't be added for touch/mouse.

Anyway, in summary, I'm disappointed that after such a long wait for Sibelius 8, and so few new features, we didn't get either old features (ribbon = Sib 7, dynamic parts = Sib 6) or new features (touch = Sib 8) that were more polished in this version. :(

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Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature
Posted by Tony Wakefield - 29 Jun 09:22AM
I think that as far as a lot of software marketeering is concerned, it`s a policy of companies to not quite know themselves if a product is ready to put out, but to market it knowing that the product is not perfect (especially as many, many kinds of computers work in different ways) and hence fully expecting the list of bugs/design faults to be called in. They don`t tell us this, but isn`t it very obvious to us? DON`T BUY NEW.

--
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/tonywakefield

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Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature
Posted by Adrian Drover - 29 Jun 09:50AM
Are new versions still being beta tested for accuracy and worth?

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Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature
Posted by Roy Moore - 29 Jun 10:10AM (edited 29 Jun 10:33AM)
David,

Sib 6 to Sib 8 is a bit of a shock I know.

The many more key combinations now available for shortcuts on Windows allow you to follow the Sibelius convention of using a key combination + T (say) to filter Text. Or K for chords.

I use Alt+T to filter text and Alt+K for chord symbols.

I used to use the Windows combinations too - Alt+CXOB for boxed text but that's no longer available.

I only use the Ribbon when exporting audio or printing. I keep it collapsed otherwise - just hovering over it makes it show if needed.

You know a lot of the old context menus are still there if you right click in empty space on the score.

You can also access the dynamic parts list by clicking on + (top right) or in fact anywhere to the left of the + on the task bar.

Are 'sticky' tuplets of any use to you? Continuous tuplet input until escape


--
Roy Moore
London UK (2015)
Sib 7.5.1,Windows 7 SP 1 pro x64 8gb ram,2x quad core 2.5ghz , 512gb SSD Audiophile 2496
Laptop Win 8.1 - 32gb ram 512 ssd 750 hd
EW Goliath, EWQLSO platinum, Hollywood Strings Gold, QL Solo Violin, Note Performer




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Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature
Posted by Sam at Sibelius - 29 Jun 10:35AM
Hi David,

Thanks for the feedback.

> 1. Touch screen zooming

This should work but we have had a couple reports of this. Please get in touch with the support team and they'll be able to help out.

> 2. "Reset" commands

Good suggestion.

> 3. The new "Ribbon"

Keyboard shortcuts will be the best thing for you to use here. They'll help you access the filters you use regularly. As you have a touch screen, you may find tapping the filter you need is quickly than finding your mouse and scrolling through the list. As for accessing parts, "W" will help you jump to the part you need.

Hope this helps. Thanks again for the feedback.

Sam

--
Sam Butler | Product Manager | Sibelius
sam.butler@avid.com | @avid_sam | @AvidSibelius

Contact the Sibelius support team:
www.sibelius.com/documents/contact_form.html

KB and other resources:
www.sibelius.com/support

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Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature
Posted by Mike Lyons - 29 Jun 04:02PM
[ctrl]# will open each part in turn (once you have a part - not the score) open by using w.

--
1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.

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Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature
Posted by Roy Moore - 29 Jun 04:52PM (edited 29 Jun 05:21PM)
Good tip Mike - can't see it in the list of shortcuts at back of reference. Do you know if there is a Mac equivalent?

--
Roy Moore
London UK (2015)
Sib 7.5.1,Windows 7 SP 1 pro x64 8gb ram,2x quad core 2.5ghz , 512gb SSD Audiophile 2496
Laptop Win 8.1 - 32gb ram 512 ssd 750 hd
EW Goliath, EWQLSO platinum, Hollywood Strings Gold, QL Solo Violin, Note Performer




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Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature
Posted by David Beattie - 29 Jun 06:12PM (edited 29 Jun 06:15PM)
> Hi David,
>
> Thanks for the feedback.
>
> > 1. Touch screen zooming
>
> This should work but we have had a couple reports of this. Please get in touch with the support team and they'll be able to help out.
>

Thanks Sam. I will contact Support when I have some time. I'm sure touch screen users are a minority of your customers, and while I expect this bug to be easily reproducible on any touch screen hardware, it's also possible it's hardware dependent, and thus not something you could test prior to release. Given this possibility, of course I don't necessarily expect a mature application on day 1 of a release, and I'll try to work with you to work out the bugs.

> > 3. The new "Ribbon"
>
> Keyboard shortcuts will be the best thing for you to use here. They'll help you access the filters you use regularly. As you have a touch screen, you may find tapping the filter you need is quickly than finding your mouse and scrolling through the list. As for accessing parts, "W" will help you jump to the part you need.
>

Sam, of course I'll have to program some custom keyboard shortcuts, or the mouse/touch. I had already come to that conclusion. I was just noting that keyboard accessibility could (perhaps "should") be improved in at least this one spot on the ribbon? With that being said, to be fair, Sibelius's version 6 menus were a bit weird in terms of keyboard accelerator menu letters--sometimes a single letter would be used several times on the same menu!, and you'd have to press it 2-3 times to get the selection you wanted. I've never met another application like this, and it seems obvious to me that Sibelius has a lot of commands to try to cover by the keyboard and it's a challenge to design something that works well for the keyboard! So Sibelius 6 certainly had "room for improvement" in this regard. But on the rest of the ribbon, the problem was "solved" in Sibelius 7+ by introducing multi-letter shortcuts--for example even to select the proper tab at the top level of keyboard access, we have PL for Play and PA for Parts. It seems to me the same thing could have been done for filters, so that I could have typed Alt, H(ome), FT(ilter), CH(ords), for example. Do this a few times and it would easily be memorized, just like the rest of the ribbon... whereas currently, that "CH" I'm hypothesizing isn't available and requires either switching to the mouse/touch, or hitting the "Down Arrow" 15 times instead.

The reason I have learned to do these types of filters on the keyboard in Sibelius 6, is actually because of the other, pre-programmed and well documented filter: selecting a single voice. I do a lot of work in multiple voices... and filtering voice 3 (for example) only with the mouse is of course much harder than the keyboard shortcut, and it's a real pain to have to switch back and forth between mouse/touch and keyboard more than necessary. So after pressing Ctrl-Alt-Shift-3 to select voice 3 only, it became very easy in Sibelius 6, to then hit Alt-E, I, C, for example, to filter down to only notes and chords, thus allowing me to leave my hands on the keyboard and perform both operations back to back in under a second. The nice thing about the menu based interface is, there was nothing to remember. If you didn't remember which letter to press, it was right there on the screen,... just like the keyboard prompts for the ribbon are right there on the screen. And of course after customizing Sibelius 7+ to introduce a keyboard shortcut for each of the common filters I use, it'll be just as fast as before, if not faster... but I'll have to remember what I picked for the shortcuts. So I still think this is a hole in the usability out of the box.

Thanks for wanting and listening to feedback. I'll let you know if I have any more. :)

--David

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Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature
Posted by Jim Williams - 30 Jun 05:23AM
On my system, part cycling is CTRL+' , not CTRL+#.
This contradicts the manual, and I didn't change anything manually.
Jim

--
Jim Williams
N9EJR
Sib 6, all Garritan Libraries
Win 8.1, core i7, 16 gB RAM
Miraphone 5050 and Yamaha 321 Euphoniums
Yamaha 621 Baritone, Holton 58 Bass Trumpet

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Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature
Posted by Roy Moore - 30 Jun 05:48AM
Jim

'ctrl+' is the factory shortcut for zooming in - 'ctrl -' is for zooming out.

What keyboard layout are you using?

--
Roy Moore
London UK (2015)
Sib 7.5.1,Windows 7 SP 1 pro x64 8gb ram,2x quad core 2.5ghz , 512gb SSD Audiophile 2496
Laptop Win 8.1 - 32gb ram 512 ssd 750 hd
EW Goliath, EWQLSO platinum, Hollywood Strings Gold, QL Solo Violin, Note Performer




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Messages in this thread

Sib 8: definitely not mature - David Beattie, 28 Jun 11:48PM
     Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Tony Wakefield, 29 Jun 09:22AM
         Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Adrian Drover, 29 Jun 09:50AM
         Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Roy Moore, 29 Jun 10:10AM
     Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Sam at Sibelius, 29 Jun 10:35AM
         Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Mike Lyons, 29 Jun 04:02PM
             Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Roy Moore, 29 Jun 04:52PM
         Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - David Beattie, 29 Jun 06:12PM
             Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Jim Williams, 30 Jun 05:23AM
                 Re: Sib 8: definitely not mature - Roy Moore, 30 Jun 05:48AM