Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 16 Feb 12:55AM Hide picture Now that Sibelius 7.5 has been out for awhile, is there a definitive source for how text behaves within a score and parts? No, I'm not looking for a "let's see this" approach - I'm talking more along the lines of this is how each one of the text tools behaves...period. There is text that Sibelius won't let me select. There is text that jumps around no matter where I position it. There is text that simply disappears. There are Part Names which do not appear in parts. There are text entries which are connected to the score in grey lines. There are text entries which are connected to the score in red lines. There are text entries which insist on positioning themselves out in the purple area of the work screen. There are text entries which appear in parts but not in the score. Etc., etc. Working with text in Sibelius is a showstopping experience for me - I have a number of pieces which are simply dead in the water because they are not printable. I can't move text, delete text, keep it from moving when I don't want it moved - just about everything that should NOT happen with this product! The Help guide doesn't seem to address these issues. I need to know how text WORKS, not what I 'can do' with it. Is there somebody's webpage or some other source where this information lives? Thanks. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Laurence Payne - 16 Feb 02:00AM Hide picture Well, each item of text has a Text Style, which determines its appearance and position - or at least the base settings before you modify them or drag it somewhere else! Perhaps you could attach one of your sib files including various text items and explain just what specific problems you're having? Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 16 Feb 08:53AM Hide picture I have been using Sibelius 7.5 since it came out and I use many of the text styles that most people commonly use. The ONLY time I have ever had a problem is when I have done something stupid with it (moved it off page, put the wrong type of text in the wrong place or some other idiocy.) You can attach a score with no notes or random notes if you don't want to give away your trade secrets, but which show the problems you are having. We are not psychic and cannot guess what you have done to make the text behave badly. You may be having problems because you are not using the correct text style for the purpose, but there are many, many reasons why things could go wrong. Text handling in Sib 7 is one of the few things that have been really improved. Admittedly, it is not perfect, but it is considerably better than in Sib 6 or 5. -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Adrian Drover - 16 Feb 09:47AM Hide picture Sounds like you are new to Sibelius, Reg. I use Sib for all of my music document processing and love it. There was a huge improvement in text handling in version 7. Once you understand what text style does what, you will like it, and you can even create new text styles to do exactly what you want them to do. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 16 Feb 01:43PM Hide picture Folks... Your replies are exactly the point I was trying to make in my first post. By your requests, I have attached two sample scores. Reply #1: "Each item has a Text Style which determines its appearance and position." Yes...I asked where the documentation is for these which tell the user what these 'items' will and will NOT do, how they can be controlled, what they are dependent on, etc. I'm not talking about hopelessly searching through dialog boxes in the interface. Reply #2: "The ONLY time I have ever had a problem is when I have done something stupid with it [text]..." Yes...why should an otherwise intelligent person 'do something stupid' and not be able to instantly rectify a situation? Why should that person not be able to change his mind later only to discover that what he had done with all best intentions was now a 'problem?' And more to the point: Why should the text do something that he did NOT tell it to do in the first place? Reply #2: "...there are many, many reasons why things could go wrong." Yes...but why should the tool not permit a user to make things RIGHT by permitting simple techniques that we've been using for decades? Replies #2&3: Sibelius 7 represents a 'great improvement' over previous versions. Yes...when will it be beyond beta state so that it is worthy of the amount of money we pay for it? I am happy to test Avid's software for them...heck, I won't even charge them. But I've paid $700 for the privilege of being a guinea pig and I don't feel that's ethical. Reply #3: "...create new text styles to do exactly what you want them to do." Yes...but all I should have to do is click an insertion point on the score, enter the text, then tell a Properties dialog to either fix that text in place or permit it to move with the score. This 'movement' would be rational and commonly understood, e.g., not move outside the printable margins unless the user absolutely forces it, not reappear after deletion simply because the user changed instruments, etc. If people like this convoluted 'text styles' approach to having the application take over the thinking, then let them build templates of their own. I've enclosed two examples (one in this post, one in the next) of typical text behavior issues I get. In Danny Boy, there is this odd field 'Composers' which is stuck out to the left in outer space. I can't select it and drag it back into the page. In fact, I never even typed this into the score! My template has a field to link to Backstage called \$Composer\, which as you can see is populated. Where this rogue field came from is beyond me and why I cannot manipulate something in my interface is equally baffling. This 'jumping' text happens to me all the time. I never authorize the removal of text outside the margins and can't for the life of me figure out why Sibelius would design a product that does this. Even if it does, not to be able to manually select something in the interface is simply inexcusable. Note how the parts in Danny Boy do not contain their part labels differentiating between parts in the world of printouts. This is probably due to the 'Full Score' designator being missing from the upper left hand corner of the score, but I did NOT delete this by clicking my mouse on it directly. I've enclosed a second score called How Can I Keep From Singing which shows that I indeed deleted that 'Full Score' designator from the tops of my pages (I have to do this over and again as it insists on reappearing every time I make a change to the systems). However, the Part label is still there. How it got deleted from Danny Boy is beyond me. These are only a sampling of the issues - the 'many, many' things which can go wrong, as Mr. Lyons points out. My original request was that because of this self-same condition, there should be a document from Avid or authorized individual which goes into the architecture of the web of text behavior that this application forces a user to labor under. Rather than just complain, I'll provide just a couple of examples: RED DOTTED LINE Go ahead...search for it in the manual. Tell me if you find it. TEXT OUTSIDE MARGINS Go ahead...search for it in the manual. Tell me if you find it. I could give you a bunch more, but you get my point. There should never EVER be an index in a help manual which does not include at least one entry for every single item in the interface in terms of its APPEARANCE...so that those of us who are 'new to Sibelius' can learn. Attachment Danny Boy (test).sib (90K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 16 Feb 01:44PM Hide picture (next) Attachment How Can I Keep From Singing (test).sib (89K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 16 Feb 04:09PM (edited 16 Feb 05:06PM) Hide picture OK, first things first. The text "composers" and the field which shows the composers dates have been typed in by you (or some other person) at some point. Probably in error. I suspect they are parts of atext item "composer's dates" that someone attempted to type in, not realising that they were typing it into a field. To get it to return to the page, you need to select the 2nd bar of music with a purple box (system select - [ctrl]click) as this and all of the other system text items appear to have been attached to that bar. Did you at some point add an extra bar to the beginning? Title, Composer, subtitle, lyricist etc all need to be attached to the 1st bar of the music, as the settings of their respective text styles require this. If you add a bar at the start of the piece after you have placed these items, they will end up in the 2nd bar and thats when things go cock-eyed. Selecting the correct bar and typing [ctrl]p and/or [ctrl]d will reset the position of the text, at least to get it on the page. you need to drag it until the attachment line's arrowhead moves to the first bar (you can also use cut and paste. ([ctrl]x [ctrl]v)) By looking on the text tab of the ribbon, you can find out what text style a particular text item uses. The wandering word "Composers" uses plain system text. That can only have been typed by you. I suspect your mistake in not being able to select it was that you were selecting the wrong bar. You might have a close look in the manual in Chapter 5 - all of it. This chapter also covers wildcards. Chapters 7.9 and 7.10 would also be very useful as they discuss layout and attachment lines. I don't know what has happened to your partname, but, at some point you may have deleted or typed over it. You can easily replace it by inserting text->special text->instrument name at top left. Again, this is in the manual. You say you did not delete this directly, but it is quite easy to accidentally delete things! Things can still be selected even though they may not be on the screen and a frantic blast of pressing delete or backspace in frustration can often cause havoc! Also, you may have accidentally edited the partname out of existence by deleting the wildcard that normally inhabits that text style and replacing it with something else. We have all been there! Anything that you do that you later regret can always be undone through [ctrl]z, a standard windows shortcut. If only real life was so simple! [quote: "I've enclosed a second score called How Can I Keep From Singing which shows that I indeed deleted that 'Full Score' designator from the tops of my pages (I have to do this over and again as it insists on reappearing every time I make a change to the systems). However, the Part label is still there. How it got deleted from Danny Boy is beyond me."] I'm not sure I understand what you mean. The parts and score all have the partname at the top left. You don't need to delete this, you should just hide it (in the score, or the parts or all.) I also don't understand about 'dotted red line'. Do you want to create a dotted red line? There isn't one in the score of either piece, nor in the parts. It is easy to create one if you need such: 1. Create dotted line (notations->lines, near the bottom of the list.) 2. rt-click on it 3. choose colo(u)r 4. select (any) red 5. Press OK Similarly, there is no text outside of the margins - apart from the original one in Danny Boy. If you want to check, turn on view margins (tick the box in the view tab.) Hope this helps. BTW, you can add multiple attachments to posts by choosing edit (under your own post) and then attaching another file. max 900k. -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Attachments How Can I Keep From Singing (test)_ML.sib (89K), Danny Boy (test)_ML.sib (90K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Laurence Payne - 16 Feb 04:27PM Hide picture As you wanted to learn about Text Styles, doubtless you consulted section 5 of your Sibelius manual, which covers the Text tab. After a preliminary explanation, section 5.2 lists and describes the more common Text Styles - "The table below lists the most important text styles and what they are used for." (It would be impossible, of course, to list everything. a Style CAN'T be used for:-) You might also look at the final section of the manual - Visual Index. There you'll find several demonstration pages, containing most of the objects you might want to place on a score. When things go wrong, Select All, followed by the various Reset functions - Reset Position, Reset Design, Reset Note Spacing - can be invaluable. It is completely pointless and unproductive to get annoyed with a computer program :-) And you're dealing with fellow users here, not with Sibelius Central. No point in telling us off for Sibelius' perceived shortcomings. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 16 Feb 05:33PM Hide picture Mike: Your remarks are very revealing. For example, you're not able to discern what I'm referring to with the dotted red line. Why? It should be easy to find in the documentation, but it's not. Instead, you'll have to rely upon what I've had to for all these months: someone miraculously addressing the issue in a blog. This isn't your fault. More on this below... The answer is: perform a Ctrl+A (Select All) and you will see that Composers text is connected to Page 1 of the score with a dotted red line. I figured out that this means that the text item is allegedly in a 'fixed' position in the score vs. the dotted grey line variety which means that it's movable. However, I can't select this text directly and delete it or move it. Why? There should be absolutely NOTHING in the interface that is not accessible to the user. NOTHING. It is all very possible that I typed in 'Composers' and somehow did not include the control characters that would make this into a field, but if the text is going to fly out of view (and keep in mind that it didn't appear until the score size increased to a Page 2 after many days of edits and changes), how am I supposed to know that I fat-fingered something? And...why did the real 'Composers' field that currently contains the Composer's name NOT fly off the page? You see what I'm getting at here? This shouldn't be about trial & error learning of these text functions, but instead we should be afforded a complete architectural understanding of how text works. Newbies can't be expected to decipher complex relationships of values from dialog boxes - these values don't as yet mean anything to us. Yes, I added a bar to the beginning to this score, and I'm fine with the condition that the original insertion remains true to what is now Bar 2. However, I could not click on the item and drag it back to the now Bar 1...can you? All I could do was perform this 'Reset' function which resets EVERYTHING in the score - something I might not want to do, right? So...you're instructions for the resetting of INDIVIDUAL text certainly came in handy, my thanks. However, there is nothing in the documentation which differentiates between this singular function from the everything function. However, this behavior issue comes up in another case. Since you have my score, you can see that there is more than one text element attached to the new Bar 2 - why didn't *these* text boxes jump off the page? Instead, they remain perfectly where I originally positioned them. In addition, the title - somehow - has TWO arrows extending from it, one pointing to Bar 2 and one pointing to Bar 3. How is this possible? Did you notice how there is this phantom dotted grey line that points to nothing in the score? How is *this* possible? In fact, there seems to be more than one. Again, the idea is that you're not supposed to learn that you've done something wrong by first doing it, especially if you cannot even see it! Your advice about much more information in Chapter 7.9/10 was valuable. I see that once I increased the Zoom in the score to 600% that the 'dots' are indeed actually dashes, so my search - as is usually the case - was not valid. However, I find it curious for a Help document to tell me that the red line is an indicator of something *I* "shouldn't" be doing. I had nothing to do with that Composers text box shooting off the page. I inserted an additional measure in the score, I did not give permission of anything in the score to relocate itself outside of the printable margins, much less out of view entirely. The Words 'Full Score' always appear at the top of my scores when I create a fresh file. I don't like this - it's simply a repeat of what the Part Name field displays at the left. So...I delete the field at the top center. Sibelius tells me I should be performing this task in the Backstage area, but regardless of how I've done it (including removing it from Backstage), whenever I change something to a system - Add/Delete Instrument, add staves, etc. - it always reinserts this 'Full Score' field at the top. I believe that I know how the Part Name got deleted, but - again - this is certainly not something that one would anticipate. When I added the initial bar, it was originally a pickup bar - less than four beats. When I did this, the Part Name jumped, so I had to reposition it into the pickup bar. I did not do this for any other text boxes on the page because, as I mentioned earlier, these did NOT jump. Even more interestingly, the Date field which is positioned directly under the Part Name field also remained exactly where I want it despite it also being its anchor being bumped a measure forward. Later, I decided that I didn't want a pickup bar, but instead wanted the tune to begin with a full bar. I didn't want to go through the ever-dangerous practice of cutting and pasting into a fresh system structure, so I simply deleted the pickup bar where the Part Name was anchored and that's when I believe that the entire field disappeared. I've noticed that sometimes when areas where the anchors of text boxes are deleted, then the text boxes themselves are deleted, as well. This is highly unsettling and I don't know how to address it. I would rather deleted the text boxes myself. The upshot to all this is that you can see that what someone like me needs is not the typical 'you can do this, you can do that' language of a Help document. Instead, what I need is to have an encyclopedia of interface objects that detail how they are accessed and how they behave. An example would be: "Title Box - a specially formulated text box which already knows that it's supposed to be fixed at a specific point on the score and must always be repositioned manually. It will not move when adjustments are made to notation or staves. Other text boxes on the page which are dynamically inserted will 'see' the Title Box and not intrude on its space on the page unless manually manipulated to do so. The Title Box has no arrows connecting it to the system - instead, its function is to understand where the user has positioned it on the page itself. It's sizing and location parameters, as well as formatting can be found ." Other specific behavioral elements could be provided, of course. Instead, the Help documentation kind of 'spreads' the functionality of a single object all over the place, and for me at least, It's really difficult to put it all together. I will work with your methods you provided - these are fairly clear and should present no methodology issues. I appreciate the effort in responding. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 16 Feb 05:51PM Hide picture Laurence: My aim is to get folks from being so passive about accepting software from an industry which is now going into its fourth decade of development. All you have to do is Google anything about problems with an application and you'll get an untold number of results. I realize that you're not 'Sibelius Central,' but it seems as though we've all gotten addicted to functionality and now 'feature fatigue' is a very real condition in the world of computers, and it's something that we should address. The GUI was an ingenious way of lifting us out of the world of having to be amateur programmers just to get a computer to do something. Along the way, a de facto set of principles arose which made it so users did not have to relearn how to interact with their computers each time an application came out. The GUI was supposed to standardize interaction and eventually, software developers were expected to adhere to these standards. I can't speak for Mac, but I assume that by now it's very similar to Windows. Since you're familiar with my posts, you should be able to see a common thread running through them: Sibelius will not let me interact with it in the manner that has been established by the O/S. UI principles such as 'Select to Affect,' 'Drag & Drop,' and general WYSIWYG do not seem to act as constraints on Sibelius' developers. Instead, one thing can work one way in one context, and quite another way in a different one, and the reason is...that's how it is! In this thread, the problem I had with this 'Composers' item is a perfect example. In the default OOB configuration of the application - before a user ever tinkers with anything, if s/he sees something like this, s/he would expect that she can select it and deal with it. Well, Sibelius doesn't even let me select it. Instead, I'm expected to somehow comb through the documentation and associate terms such as 'reset' to 'Drag & Drop' or 'reposition.' To Sibelius, the Composer field isn't even out of position! To it, it's perfectly fine that it's located a mile off the page. I have offered a solution to these "many, many" problems that Mr. Lyons alludes to: make sure that the functionality is directly tied to the display. There. Let's say you move something. There would be a Properties dialog that allows you to tell Sibelius in plain, real-world language how that object should behave...right on the spot. NOTHING that a user originally created would be un-selectable EVER. Instead, a dialog should come up and say, "Would you like to relocate this object? Then do ." I believe that if a growing number of people would raise their voices to insist that this application be developed with more simple intelligence and architectural-style help (rather than feature-function), we would avoid initiatives such as that launched by one Daniel Spreadbury who believes that Avid will never fix Sibelius' playback problems. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 16 Feb 07:00PM Hide picture > I have offered a solution to these "many, many" problems that Mr. Lyons alludes to: make sure that the functionality is directly tied to the display. There. Let's say you move something. There would be a Properties dialog that allows you to tell Sibelius in plain, real-world language how that object should behave...right on the spot. NOTHING that a user originally created would be un-selectable EVER. There is such - it's called the Inspector! ([ctrl][shift]i) BTW, Daniel is, technically, "The Enemy", now! He works for Steinberg and is currently working on a new development which will wipe Avid's face in the dirt and for which we are all waiting with bated breath. However, Daniel was once the Great White God of Sibelius. Without him, Sibelius would have died years ago. Avid did him and us the greatest disservice when it 'let him and his team go'. Their update programme is patchy and slow. We should have been on Sibelius 8 or 9 by now. Please make an effort to read the manual. Daniel wrote much of it and it is not too boring as a result. It will help. -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Robin Walker - 16 Feb 06:08PM (edited 16 Feb 07:07PM) Hide picture > perform a Ctrl+A (Select All) and you will see that Composers text is connected to Page 1 of the score with a dotted red line. That dotted line is not red, and that explains why others are not comprehending the references to dotted red lines. The dotted attachment line for Title, Subtitle, Dedication, Composer, Lyricist, Partname text objects is coloured the same as the colour of the system passage selection: purple. Edit: actually the attachment lines in the Full Score remain grey for both system-attached and staff-attached objects. It is the objects themselves which become purple when a system selection is made. But the special magic for Title, Subtitle, Dedication, Composer, Lyricist, Partname objects only works when they are attached to their default position, which is the first note of the first bar. In your score "Danny Boy", these special text objects are wrongly attached to bar 2. This indicates that it is very likely that bar 1 was inserted after the score was first created, but without transferring these text attachments to the new bar 1. There is a plugin to do all of this automatically. The late insertion of bar 1 also explains why the "Composers" text is off the right-hand margin. The "Composers" text was created in text style "Plain system text", which retains its position relative to its attachment point. It was originally attached to the first bar of the score before the current bar 1 was inserted. It was probably manually dragged to the right-hand margin, thus acquiring a significant offset from its attachment point. Then, when the new bar 1 was inserted, the old bar 1, now bar 2, moved to the right, and so did all attached items (except the page-relative text objects), so the text "Composers" moved to the right off the right-hand margin. -- Sibelius 7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6.3 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1 4GB, Windows 8.1 64-bit 16GB. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 16 Feb 06:26PM Hide picture Well, you're right...I don't know why it is grey now, but only in the Score. In the part, however, it is red (see attached). Another mystery! I used the plugin to insert the new lead bar...it obviously did not re-anchor the text. Is it something I didn't tell the plugin to do? You are correct about how Composers got repositioned, but the field underneath it did not relocate. I'll keep working with it, thanks. Attachment Red Line.jpg (125K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 16 Feb 06:48PM Hide picture Sibelius colours items red if they are colliding with other objects. Mayhap the text is colliding with something? -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Robin Walker - 16 Feb 07:18PM Hide picture > I don't know why it is grey now, but only in the Score. In the part, however, it is red (see attached). The red attachment lines in Parts (only) are described on page 697 of the Sibelius 7.5 Reference: "You shouldn’t move an object very far in a part (e.g. to a different note), because it won’t move in the score and so won’t match the score. If you try to, the gray attachment line will go red, to warn you that the object is too far away from where it is in the score." -- Sibelius 7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6.3 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1 4GB, Windows 8.1 64-bit 16GB. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 16 Feb 06:32PM (edited 16 Feb 06:45PM) Hide picture > Mike: > > Your remarks are very revealing. For example, you're not able to discern what I'm referring to with the dotted red line. Why? It should be easy to find in the documentation, but it's not. Instead, you'll have to rely upon what I've had to for all these months: someone miraculously addressing the issue in a blog. This isn't your fault. More on this below... The reason I couldn't discern it was that it wasn't there! Also, the reason the dotted line may have been red was because the text was out of place. > > The answer is: perform a Ctrl+A (Select All) and you will see that Composers text is connected to Page 1 of the score with a dotted red line. I figured out that this means that the text item is allegedly in a 'fixed' position in the score vs. the dotted grey line variety which means that it's movable. However, I can't select this text directly and delete it or move it. Why? There should be absolutely NOTHING in the interface that is not accessible to the user. NOTHING. The composers text is not connected to PAGE 1, it is connected to BAR 2. All items in Sib, with very few exceptions are connected to bars. > > It is all very possible that I typed in 'Composers' and somehow did not include the control characters that would make this into a field, but if the text is going to fly out of view (and keep in mind that it didn't appear until the score size increased to a Page 2 after many days of edits and changes), how am I supposed to know that I fat-fingered something? And...why did the real 'Composers' field that currently contains the Composer's name NOT fly off the page? Do you ever use panorama view? That can sometimes lead to items falling off the page. > > You see what I'm getting at here? This shouldn't be about trial & error learning of these text functions, but instead we should be afforded a complete architectural understanding of how text works. Newbies can't be expected to decipher complex relationships of values from dialog boxes - these values don't as yet mean anything to us. There is little - other than some of the more arcane rules of engraving - that you are forced to do by trial and error. If the dialog boxes don't mean anything to you, then I am afraid you have not been paying close enough attention to the manual and to the tutorials. Strange as it may seem, I was also once a newbie, however, a basic grasp of notational principles and a modicum of observation and common sense allowed me to prevail over the vagaries of windows and sibelius both. If you want to really see the trial and error approach in action, try using finale. > > Yes, I added a bar to the beginning to this score, and I'm fine with the condition that the original insertion remains true to what is now Bar 2. However, I could not click on the item and drag it back to the now Bar 1...can you? All I could do was perform this 'Reset' function which resets EVERYTHING in the score - something I might not want to do, right? So...you're instructions for the resetting of INDIVIDUAL text certainly came in handy, my thanks. However, there is nothing in the documentation which differentiates between this singular function from the everything function. Try reading my post again. Select the bar (bar 2) with a system selection (RTFM) and you can reset just the items in that bar. You can also filter for the system text items (they are all the ones that are misbehaving for you) and cut and paste them into the correct locations. You could also just drag the top staff down and, eventually, outside text items will return to the page. You could also change the page margin to a large enough value to move the top staff low enough, but that seems a little excessive for me! > > However, this behavior issue comes up in another case. Since you have my score, you can see that there is more than one text element attached to the new Bar 2 - why didn't *these* text boxes jump off the page? Instead, they remain perfectly where I originally positioned them. In addition, the title - somehow - has TWO arrows extending from it, one pointing to Bar 2 and one pointing to Bar 3. How is this possible? That second arrow is not connected to the visible title, but to an invisible - empty - text item. For that matter there is at least one other empty text string in the bar (the attachment line leads to where the composer name is. You CAN end up with an empty text string if you delete all the characters. There is a plugin to clean these up.It is in the text tab "Delete empty Strings" > > Did you notice how there is this phantom dotted grey line that points to nothing in the score? How is *this* possible? In fact, there seems to be more than one. Again, the idea is that you're not supposed to learn that you've done something wrong by first doing it, especially if you cannot even see it! See above - you deleted it! > > Your advice about much more information in Chapter 7.9/10 was valuable. I see that once I increased the Zoom in the score to 600% that the 'dots' are indeed actually dashes, so my search - as is usually the case - was not valid. However, I find it curious for a Help document to tell me that the red line is an indicator of something *I* "shouldn't" be doing. I had nothing to do with that Composers text box shooting off the page. I inserted an additional measure in the score, I did not give permission of anything in the score to relocate itself outside of the printable margins, much less out of view entirely. I have occasionally found this happening after a change of margins in doc setup or after working in panorama view without taking care to check the position of objects. We have already discussed how to sort this out. > > The Words 'Full Score' always appear at the top of my scores when I create a fresh file. I don't like this - it's simply a repeat of what the Part Name field displays at the left. So...I delete the field at the top center. Sibelius tells me I should be performing this task in the Backstage area, but regardless of how I've done it (including removing it from Backstage), whenever I change something to a system - Add/Delete Instrument, add staves, etc. - it always reinserts this 'Full Score' field at the top. RTFM - again. This is explained in the manual. You don't delete this text (unless you really want to) you hide it in the score. It shows "FullScore" in the score because that is what the full Score is called. If you were to type "Alice Blue-Gown's Red Knickers" in the appropriate box in the Backstage, that is what would appear. Be aware, the full score and parts have separate settings! > > I believe that I know how the Part Name got deleted, but - again - this is certainly not something that one would anticipate. When I added the initial bar, it was originally a pickup bar - less than four beats. When I did this, the Part Name jumped, so I had to reposition it into the pickup bar. I did not do this for any other text boxes on the page because, as I mentioned earlier, these did NOT jump. Even more interestingly, the Date field which is positioned directly under the Part Name field also remained exactly where I want it despite it also being its anchor being bumped a measure forward. Because it has different parameters in the text style settings. RTFM. > > Later, I decided that I didn't want a pickup bar, but instead wanted the tune to begin with a full bar. I didn't want to go through the ever-dangerous practice of cutting and pasting into a fresh system structure, so I simply deleted the pickup bar where the Part Name was anchored and that's when I believe that the entire field disappeared. Got it! > > I've noticed that sometimes when areas where the anchors of text boxes are deleted, then the text boxes themselves are deleted, as well. This is highly unsettling and I don't know how to address it. I would rather deleted the text boxes myself. That is because all objects are attached to a bar - in fact a position within a bar, usually a note or rest, but occasionally a barline! > > The upshot to all this is that you can see that what someone like me needs is not the typical 'you can do this, you can do that' language of a Help document. Instead, what I need is to have an encyclopedia of interface objects that detail how they are accessed and how they behave. I wish you the very best of luck in finding such a document. Of course you could always 1. RTFM and 2. ask us. > > An example would be: "Title Box - a specially formulated text box which already knows that it's supposed to be fixed at a specific point on the score and must always be repositioned manually. It will not move when adjustments are made to notation or staves. Other text boxes on the page which are dynamically inserted will 'see' the Title Box and not intrude on its space on the page unless manually manipulated to do so. The Title Box has no arrows connecting it to the system - instead, its function is to understand where the user has positioned it on the page itself. It's sizing and location parameters, as well as formatting can be found ." It is NOT a box. Sibelius is in no way like Microsoft Publisher. Again, I say, RTFM. Text is explained quite fully there. I would particularly recommend the section on Text Styles. i.e ALL of Chapter 5. > > Other specific behavioral elements could be provided, of course. Instead, the Help documentation kind of 'spreads' the functionality of a single object all over the place, and for me at least, It's really difficult to put it all together. I'm afraid it is what it is. Most people seem to get on with it OK. However, I must repeat. You should READ the manual THOROUGHLY! Skimming will not help you as a newbie. When I got my first copy of Sibelius (3) I read the manual from cover to cover. I did the same with Sib 4 and 5 and 6 and 7.1 and 7.5. even though sometimes the changes were minimal, I found it helped me to embed the information I needed to know about how Sibelius works. If you are not a visual learner, try watching the video tutorials, accessible through the quickstart menu. > > I will work with your methods you provided - these are fairly clear and should present no methodology issues. I appreciate the effort in responding. We are here to help. -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 16 Feb 07:23PM Hide picture Mike: I have read the manual. I'm sorry, I don't understand it. It makes no sense to me. That's why I come out here. There are many parts of the manual which are precisely the kind of Help I need which stand in sharp contrast to the parts of the manuals that aren't. For example, if you go to p. 427 in the manual, you see an example of what somebody like me needs to see: a representation and description of an interface object - in this case, text boxes. Dashed can be resized; solid cannot. There...exactly what we're talking about here. The instruction STARTS with what the user *sees*, THEN bases its description of function on that. Now, go to page 405. Here we see a complete reversal of this approach. Buried two layers deep in a subsection called 'Create Text Fast' is a random bullet point (#3) that indicates the way that Sibelius seems to 'look' at inserted text, but there is *nothing* there which describes how Sibelius regulates all this. A proper section on text in a Help manual would first provide a section as to how text in Sibelius *works* not how it is inserted, edited, formatted, etc. All that would come later. Why would a user, when faced with nearly 800 pages of text think to look in a section about quick creation of text when trying to see why a text box has seemingly jumped off the page? Where is the logic in this? There is a hierarchy of usage in a UI known as 'Section Intent.' This refers to the logical and recommended process that users engage to accomplish tasks, but also learn how to avoid problems - to use the application 'the right way.' When I read this Help manual, I have not been able to procure an overall understanding of how this application is designed and what it expects of ME - not what I should expect of IT. Google and these blogs are saturated with questions about text issues - I know, I've seen so many of them. By now, I would have expected that these would make it into the documentation, as Tips & Tricks or as Troubleshooting, if we can't get the architecture descriptions. For example, you say that what I called a 'Title Box' isn't a 'box.' OK, semantics: it's known as a 'frame.' It has a border, it has text alignment and font formatting capabilities, it can be moved: it is a TEXT BOX object, at least to the non-Sibelius world. OK, I type 'title frame' into the document Search. Nothing. I type 'title' into the Search. I have to manually go through the entire chapter on text one by one until I reach a blurb - buried in a subsection entitled Horizontal Positions Tab -> Default Positions. There, I see in an offhand remark "...the title of a piece is almost always centered on the page," but even this really doesn't describe how the title behaves, what are Best Practices in using it, how it's linked (or not) to Backstage, etc. I can read and re-read the manual until doomsday, but the only way you ever learn something is to have it presented in conceptual form *first*, then gradually increasing the level of detail. Just like those examples of frames I mentioned, each of the text objects should have their own descriptors and not be buried in offhand remarks in distantly-related sections. Most of what you've written in this thread is NOT in the manual no matter how much you might believe that it is. Yes, the facts are strewn about willy-nilly in it, but I find it next-to-impossible to make any sense out of it. Maybe I need to pay someone to make a Dummies book for this?? At any rate, I've copied your instructions into my own Word doc...they make far more sense to me than what's in the manual. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Robin Walker - 16 Feb 06:52PM (edited 16 Feb 07:25PM) Hide picture > a dotted red line. > I figured out that this means that the text item is allegedly in a 'fixed' position in the score > vs. the dotted grey line variety which means that it's movable. The ordinary grey attachment line is for objects attached to a staff. The purple attachment line is for "system" objects attached to the system and therefore no particular staff. Certain text styles are defined (in Edit Text Styles) to be attached to the system rather than to a staff. This includes all the text items that are positioned at the top of a score. By convention, these system objects are shown as attached to the first note of the first bar when you make a system selection which includes these objects. > However, I can't select this text directly and delete it or move it. Why? Objects off a page cannot be selected. Either "Reset Position" to move the object back to its default position, or adjust the page size larger until you can select it. > You see what I'm getting at here? This shouldn't be about trial & error learning of these text functions, > but instead we should be afforded a complete architectural understanding of how text works. The Sibelius Reference is not a tutorial: it is a specification of the product. There is a useful third-party tutorial book "Sibelius 7 Music Notation Essentials" at: http://www.composerhome.com/resources/sibelius/sibelius7book.html > However, this behavior issue comes up in another case. > Since you have my score, you can see that there is more than one text element attached to the new Bar 2 > - why didn't *these* text boxes jump off the page? Because their Text Styles have positions defined relative to the page margins, not relative to a staff. > In addition, the title - somehow - has TWO arrows extending from it, one pointing to Bar 2 and one pointing to Bar 3. How is this possible? Because there are two Title text objects in the score. One, saying "Danny Boy" you have added yourself. The other one, containing the wildcard \$Title\ appears blank because the Title box has not been filled in File->Info. Clearly, this score derives from some Manuscript Paper or template which expected Title, Composer, Lyricist, etc., to be supplied in File->Info, and then automatically displayed in the predefined wildcard fields in the score. There are other blank text objects containing undefined wild-cards in this score as well. > Did you notice how there is this phantom dotted grey line that points to nothing in the score? How is *this* possible? I can't tell which line you mean, but it is probably a text item which is empty, or containing a wild-card which has not been defined. > The Words 'Full Score' always appear at the top of my scores when I create a fresh file. > I don't like this - it's simply a repeat of what the Part Name field displays at the left. > So...I delete the field at the top center. These pre-defined fields do not print out by default: that is why they appear to be greyed-out on the screen. So it is not really necessary to delete them. They are pre-populated with wildcard references to PartName. The top-centre PartName fields are useful for multi-page Parts, as the one at the left on the first page will not be visible on later pages. Sibelius here is just mimicking standard music scoring layout conventions. > whenever I change something to a system - Add/Delete Instrument, add staves, etc. > - it always reinserts this 'Full Score' field at the top. Yes, that's the recommended way of restoring the PartName field if it has been accidentally deleted. > I've noticed that sometimes when areas where the anchors of text boxes are deleted, then the text boxes themselves > are deleted, as well. This is highly unsettling and I don't know how to address it. Yes, if you delete a bar, then all items attached to that bar will also be deleted. That's necessary, because objects have to be attached to some point in the score, and if that point is deleted, the other objects cannot be left dangling. This applies also to the system objects notionally attached to bar 1. > An example would be: "Title Box - a specially formulated text box which already knows that it's supposed to be fixed > at a specific point on the score and must always be repositioned manually..." A better formulation would be: Text Style "Title" is defined to be: - system-attached (not staff-attached); and - its default position is page-relative, not staff-relative; - its default position is centred on the page. Otherwise, Text Style "Title" is perfectly normal, and not at all specially formulated. -- Sibelius 7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6.3 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1 4GB, Windows 8.1 64-bit 16GB. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 16 Feb 08:21PM Hide picture Robin: You have provided a perfect example of what I've been talking about: The red attachment lines in Parts (only) are described on page 697 of the Sibelius 7.5 Reference: "You shouldn’t move an object very far in a part (e.g. to a different note), because it won’t move in the score and so won’t match the score. If you try to, the gray attachment line will go red, to warn you that the object is too far away from where it is in the score." After much searching, I had indeed (finally) found this exact instruction awhile back. However attending to these instructions is what CAUSED the problem I'm having now! I had originally started by simply inserting the text and noticing that Sibelius would attempt to locate the insertion point somewhere 'close by.' I didn't pay much attention...until I began editing. That's when I noticed that the text would really fly all over the place - everywhere but where I had originally positioned it. So...I appealed to this forum. One of the gracious respondents (it may have been Mr. Payne) informed me that after looking at my score, he noticed that many of my text fields were not inserted at points in the score which would prevent this movement. He suggested that I anchor my text fields in Measure 1 so that they would not disappear from my Parts as well as prevent them from moving around. This strategy worked very well and I have been using it since. Obviously, text items which are justified on the right margin are probably going to be 'far away' from their measure 1 anchor point, and this is what finally broke that originally strategy. The text from the manual is also inaccurate in terms of the English language. In the normal notation edit view, there are no lines - grey or red, so an instruction to someone to notice a change in color is not valid. This means that a user is never warned in the fashion that the manual insinuates. When my text moves on me, it rarely turns red, and this Composers text problem I've described here didn't, either. It remained black, the line turned back to grey when I finally viewed it, and only displayed red in the Part - and only when I performed a Select All, as in the screen cap I posted. Is there a Layout View in Sibelius similar to Word which keeps all of the controls turned on by the user's command? Maybe this is what I'll have to do to 'catch' Sibelius doing something I don't want it to do. As to your last post, this is all excellent information, and I'm going to save it. I especially liked your rephrasing of my Title description. That is EXACTLY what I'd like to see: a dictionary of these objects and how they behave. I've written software specifications documentation for many years and what you wrote in your post here is more what I'm familiar with as a true 'spec.' It would be nice to have this kind of thing for *all* text objects - simple and direct. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Robin Walker - 16 Feb 09:31PM Hide picture > The text from the manual is also inaccurate in terms of the English language. In the normal notation edit view, > there are no lines - grey or red, so an instruction to someone to notice a change in color is not valid. You would definitely notice the change of colour if you were dragging an object in a Part, because the attachment line is always shown during the drag operation. > When my text moves on me, it rarely turns red, It would be good to actually see an example of "text moves on me", as this is the key to an issue that we have not so far been able to reproduce. The next time it happens to you, use Ctrl-Z to back off changes to the state immediately before the text "moves on me". Save the score in that state, attach it to a post here, and provide the instructions for reproducing the next few steps that lead to the text moving around unexpectedly. Then we might be able to comprehend what is happening, and provide a work-around, or even supply the rational basis for what is happening. As a general rule, staff-relative text (either staff-attached, such as Expression or Technique, or system-attached, such as Tempo) should be attached to the nearest relevant note, so that, if the score re-formats, the text moves with its parent note. Only page-relative aligned system-text objects should be attached to bar 1. -- Sibelius 7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6.3 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1 4GB, Windows 8.1 64-bit 16GB. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 16 Feb 09:55PM Hide picture Robin: Reproducing things is problematic, I realize, but rest assured that the image I attached to a previous post in this thread was not Photoshopped. And therein lies the rub: It moved itself - since you can't drag something like this out in space like that (at least in no way I know of), and as I've mentioned, I can't drag it back, either. Thus, I can't notice the change of color since it can't even be selected to begin with. Also as I've mentioned, returning to the previous command is not always an option. I may do something in one part of a score whose consequences occur off-screen, unbeknownst to me until many keystrokes later. Or, in the case of some of these 'page items' that I use, when I'm in the middle of editing a score, I'm in 'music mode.' I'm not constantly checking and re-checking the layout of each and every item on the page - I simply expect them all to remain where I originally placed them, as if I were composing on paper. Having to be so paranoid where I have to regularly check everything is jarring to my concentration and when I've done this in the past, it has ruined my muse for awhile. Also, the Bar 1 attaching strategy is not a cure-all. This is because even Bar 1 can move around depending upon what you do. For example, I might change an instrument...or the name of one, causing spacing adjustments to the left margin. This then tends to yank my Bar 1 text around and place it out of alignment. The tweaks are usually small, so it's not too big of a deal, but then they must be made to each and every part, as well. I'm thankful at that point that I'm not writing for full orchestra! What is perplexing to me is that text which has been previously aligned and is anchored at precisely the same point in the measure goes out of relative alignment once something has changed. For example, I have Part Name and Date left-justified and aligned to the left margin in my scores. These elements are anchored to Beat 1 in Bar 1. When a change is made which moves Bar 1, sometimes both fields move, sometimes only the Part Name, but they *always* go out of alignment. How can there be this independence of movement when both are anchored to the same point? Believe me, I'm not making this stuff up! Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 16 Feb 11:03PM (edited 16 Feb 11:15PM) Hide picture Although I would not recommend this to everyone, try this: Select all ([ctrl]a) then go to the layout tab of the ribbon and turn off magnetic layout. Does this make any difference to your issues? You could also try file->preferences->mouse and mess about with the settings there. BTW, your copy of the manual does not seemto correspond to mine. Once my partnames are in place, they tend not to move - except in the parts and it is a regular PIA to get them to stay still, sometimes. however, it's a lot better than it used to be. TBH, I find what you seem to find inconvenient to be quite minor. I can remember the old days and things are a lot better now. TBH, all your jibber-jabber about program design goes quite over my head and I can work within Sib's limitations. If you want things to change, go onto IdeaScale and put some of them forward. In 100,000,000 years, Avid might implement one of them, but in the meantime, we have Steinberg's new program to look forward to - or maybe you'd prefer pencil and paper? -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Robert Enns - 16 Feb 11:17PM Hide picture The page numbers don't match my 7.5 manual either. -- Rob Win 7 64 bit, 3.1 GHz, 8 Gigs RAM Sibelius 7.5, Sibelius Sounds 7.1.2, Photoscore Ult., GPO4 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 17 Feb 12:06AM Hide picture Mike: Magnetic Layout does make a difference...in some things, but it actually causes problems in others. In the balance, Magnetic Layout offers me more of a benefit being on than off. I've tried temporarily turning it off and adjusting things, but then when I've turned it back on and made more edits, then some things revert back to where they were before I made the fixes. It usually has more to do with how things butt up against staves than how they relate to one another on the page. It's interesting that you should mention the Mouse properties. I don't know how I stumbled across this (probably when browsing Properties for UI behavior control), but I couldn't really figure out what "Click the mouse to position it" really meant. When I tested it, it seemed to only provide the small advantage of where the object was originally located, not that it forced Sibelius to remain true to the positioning. This wasn't of much value to me, so I switched back to the default of having to select the location first. Nothing else in the Mouse properties dialog seems to have anything to do with our discussion here. I don't know what manual you are using, but I'm using the PDF provided with the software. The page numbers are located in the footers and I've been referring to these directly in my posts. So the solution to all this is that we're using different manuals? You know, that would probably explain a lot. As far as my 'jibber'-jabber' goes, I can create a score much faster in pencil and paper than I can with Sibelius. This is because if I need to change something real quick, all I have to do is erase it. Nothing ever moves on paper unless I move it. The main reason I use notation software is that my calligraphy sucks nowadays. However, this is where the disappointment lies. Sibelius is wonderfully intelligent when it comes to the music notation piece of the software. Whomever put this intelligence into Sibelius really seems to know music. I am continually surprised by how much Sibelius seems to 'understand' how a properly-aligned musical layout should be achieved. Yes, there are a few tweaks and bumps, but - for some reason - in the notation part of the software, I find it quite easy to figure out what Sibelius is doing, and if I'm stuck, since I can refer to some sort of notation task, I can usually figure out what to do. Furthermore, when I *have* had to post something to this forum in this realm, then the responses haven't been so mysterious - there has been little cause to resort to remarks like "that's just the way it is." It seems as though software developers believe that it's far better to provide customers with a product that performs a number of tasks problematically so they can advertise the additional functionality than to include only those tasks which perform flawlessly in the releases. (Ask iPhone users what they think of iOS 8, for example. Apple has doggone near ruined the best phone on the planet with this horrid release.) In our case, one would expect that the basics of music score notation would by now be a foregone conclusion with Sibelius, not something that I have to beg for change about. Let the bugs be with the super-advanced stuff like Exploding Staves or Playback Sensitivity. Meantime, there would be only two fundamental types of text: that which normally follows the score and that which exists on the printed page. Why? Because this is how it is in printouts. You wouldn't need all these convoluted 'styles' unless you automatically switched into Super User mode or something like that. Thus, you'd click on a dialog to insert 'music text' or 'page text.' Music text would require an anchor point, page text would position itself exactly where you finally dragged it and that would be that. You don't *tell* a dialog where to locate it - Sibelius extracts this information from the location in the workspace. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Laurence Payne - 17 Feb 11:50AM Hide picture >I can create a score much faster in pencil and paper than I can with Sibelius. This is because if I need to change something real quick, all I have to do is erase it. Nothing ever moves on paper unless I move it. This will change as you become more fluent with Sibelius, and particularly as you come to recognize the possibilities of Copy/Paste/modify. Most music is pattern-based. And, of course, the great beauty of computer score-writing is that you CAN move stuff around, erase or repeat a section etc and still end up with a pristine score! But get the music written first, THEN think about page layout. It makes sense. Now - OK, everyone's entitled to a frustrated newbie rant. But I think you've used up your ration :-) Time to stop complaining about Sibelius and sit down and learn it. Have you discovered the tutorial projects in the Help section, down at the bottom of the File menu? PS. Yes, Wildcards are tricky. But they're rarely needed unless you've just broken something! Just grab onto the concept that just about everything on a Sibelius page is attached to a bar (even if it's positioned at the top or bottom of a page) and stuff like Title, Composer, copyright etc. are generally attached to Bar 1. Delete or move it at your peril. That's why we have two useful plugins - Add/Delete pickup bar. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 17 Feb 12:18PM Hide picture Laurence, where is that [Like] button when I need it? :-) -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 17 Feb 01:29PM Hide picture Well, Laurence, you should know better than anyone in this forum that I'm not making any progress with this software despite having battled with it for nearly a year. I realize the potential of the technology is there, but I can't "sit down and learn it," as you say. You're asking the student to be his own teacher. Did you get your education by reading books and watching movies? I've tried tutorials and even read some of that book that Robin Walker recommended, but to no avail. These sources do not teach the behavior of the product's objects, only 'how to' and 'you can.' By not teaching the behavior, if users run into problems, then they have no way out. The software is like God: it can never do wrong, so the user must be at fault for not using it properly. Yet, if there's anything on the planet that absolutely cannot be on par with a God, it's computer software, and Sibelius is no exception. The comments in this thread admit it: "many, many reasons that something can go wrong," "tricky," etc. To me, much of the instruction provided in this thread is confusing and contradictory even though you folks might think it's as clear as a bell. I'm not supposed to move text inserted in a bar "too far" from its anchor point, but it also has placed "close" to its physical location. I should use the Pickup Bar plugin for inserting pickups (which I do since it's the only way I know how to insert a pickup bar), but it shifted my Bar 1 insertion points to Bar 2 and deleted previously anchored text. It might be "pointless" as you say to get annoyed at a computer program, but I was hoping that by now, I would have understood how it works. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Laurence Payne - 17 Feb 01:40PM (edited 17 Feb 01:47PM) Hide picture > Well, Laurence, you should know better than anyone in this forum that I'm not making any progress with this software despite having battled with it for nearly a year. I realize the potential of the technology is there, but I can't "sit down and learn it," as you say. You're asking the student to be his own teacher. Did you get your education by reading books and watching movies? Well, as far as computers and computer-music applications go, yes I did! I finished full-time education before the computer takeover, and I've never been much of a one for "courses". Though you can count out movies - I find "video guides" far too slow - and extend "books" to "online resources". I started with computers when a misguided partner bought me a Sinclair ZX81, then said "Do you realise you haven't come to bed for a week?" :-) I guess you have to start off with a certain empathy for the computer way of doing things, a "talent" if you like. Some people are never going to learn piano, never going to sing. A few people are always going to fight with computers. Maybe that's you! But, from the Sibelius files you've attached here, it seems you're a long way down the path already. Ask some short questions here, about specific problems, we can help. But it's hard work finding the question buried in a multi-screen rant! -- FAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/sibelius.html If you want help with a score, attach the sib file! Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 17 Feb 01:45PM Hide picture The 'rant' is a perspective of what I've been through so far. It's supposed to save you the trouble of suggesting approaches that I've already used. I see, however, that I've failed at this goal. I will adhere to your approach from now on, and since you've admitted that only a select few can learn how to use this software (as playing piano), then that speaks volumes to me. Be prepared for a long line of seemingly inane questions! :-| Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Laurence Payne - 17 Feb 01:58PM (edited 17 Feb 01:59PM) Hide picture Surely just about everyone who has a use for Sibelius plays SOMETHING? But yes, if you'd started off by attaching the Danny Boy score with the question "How do I shift that Composers text off the second page?" (answer, lasso it with the mouse to select it and then Reset Position) we'd have told you. But it's difficult to respond helpfully to "The way Sibelius handles text is CRAP!" :-) Next question, please? -- FAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/sibelius.html If you want help with a score, attach the sib file! Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 17 Feb 02:23PM Hide picture Laurence, for an application as highly complex and multifaceted as Sibelius, asking questions is not very efficient when it comes to learning. Oh, sure, you'll get the help you need for THIS particular problem in THAT particular context, but that's where the benefit ends. Believe me, I've posted only a tiny fraction of all the problems I've had with text to this forum . For all the rest, I've researched, poked, and done whatever else was necessary to get the tunes out. I learn very little along the way. Thus, after numerous questions to this forum of exactly the same type, my question about the Composers text was not only how to fix that problem, but "How do I prevent this problem from reoccurring?" Or, more to the point: "How do I prevent ALL of these moving problems from occurring?" By the notes in my logs, I have had 27 issues related to unexpected text behavior since starting using Sibelius. Do I need to experience 27 more before I understand how the software works? P.S. I indeed play musical instruments, but I would rather write. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Laurence Payne - 17 Feb 02:56PM Hide picture Oh, more than that, probably! We can tell you how to put something right, but guessing which of the many possible WRONG things you did is much harder! What were you trying to achieve when that Composer text item appeared, orphaned on a different page to its attachment point? 27 issues aren't too bad. But let's have them one by one, please. With minimum padding about how annoying they are - we've got that bit :-) Enough with motivating you to persevere. Either do so, or give up and shut up. OK? -- FAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/sibelius.html If you want help with a score, attach the sib file! Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 17 Feb 03:17PM Hide picture More than 27 more? OK, now we see what the issue has been all along - my expectations of this product have been set far too high. OK, I will submit issue by issue - questions only. I'll also attach the scores. Apologies in advance if this will seem tedious, but as you say: each problem is unique - there is no common element of understanding which will enable the user to address them proactively. I'll begin new threads from this point. Appreciate all your help! Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Laurence Payne - 17 Feb 03:23PM Hide picture One may emerge. But I think WE have to discover it. It's a foolish student who tries to control HOW he is taught! Now, shall we get on with it? -- FAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/sibelius.html If you want help with a score, attach the sib file! Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Chris Crawley - 17 Feb 06:43PM (edited 17 Feb 06:46PM) Hide picture Perhaps this is a good moment to interject some general observations. I apologise if what I say is not specifically aimed at any particular issue. Like Laurence, I came to computers late (in my fifties, actually). I learned Sibelius 3 largely from just using it, with occasional dips into the manual, but I'm sure I still don't do things the quickest and most efficient way, though I've picked up tips from here and elsewhere that have speeded me up a lot. I do not think Sibelius is particularly intuitive, but I doubt that something as complex as music engraving (if we just concentrate on that) could be made intuitive. We shall see whether Steinberg's program improves on Sibelius in that regard. Daniel has spoken of the idea of compartmentalising the notation process and it will be interesting to see how that impacts on the way we think about what we're doing. A little closer to the topic in this thread: I have never thought of "Text" or "Text Behaviour" as a topic per se and this shows that different people have different mental constructs of the notation process - or different mental constructs of Sibelius. -- Chris Crawley (amateur horn-player and composer) using mainly Sibelius 6.2 (also Sibelius 7.1.3), Windows Vista Home Basic 64-bit SP2, Intel Core 2 2.8GHz, 3GB RAM, Audiophile 192/DacMagic 100 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 17 Feb 06:57PM Hide picture Chris: The problem I have is that folks believe I invented my observations out of thin air. Start with a piece of paper. Put a title on it. Add Composer, Dates, etc. Setup your system layout...key signature, meter, etc. This is the way music has been composed for centuries. Just because something is being constructed on a computer does not mean that the expected output should be ignored. Thus, if I place Page Text - text which should remain in a fixed spot - somewhere on the page, *it should stay there*. I don't understand why this seems to be so difficult to understand. By default, that Page Text should stay where it is unless the user makes a special effort to move it (Drag & Drop). Instead, the user has to make a special effort to KEEP the text in place. This is completely counter-intuitive and contrary to centuries of practice. Why must Page Text be anchored to places in staves? This is as yet a question of mine which has never been intelligently answered. All I've been asking for in this thread is: how can I place text on the page which is not associated with the notation so that it will sit there and not move? Page Text is *not* part of the 'notation process.' It has absolutely nothing to do with the music itself. Instead, it has to do with the identification and detail of the 'paper form' that the music exists in (page numbers, headers & footers, titles, and all the rest). I hope this clarifies my mental construct. Thanks. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Laurence Payne - 17 Feb 07:37PM Hide picture > Why must Page Text be anchored to places in staves? This is as yet a question of mine which has never been intelligently answered. All I've been asking for in this thread is: how can I place text on the page which is not associated with the notation so that it will sit there and not move? > > Oh, that's an easy one! In Sibelius, you can't. But it only really matters when you forget that title, etc should attach to the first bar. Are you OK with the difference between Staff Text and System Text? That's an important concept in Sibelius. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Laurence Payne - 17 Feb 07:39PM Hide picture > Why must Page Text be anchored to places in staves? This is as yet a question of mine which has never been intelligently answered. All I've been asking for in this thread is: how can I place text on the page which is not associated with the notation so that it will sit there and not move? > > Oh, that's an easy one! In Sibelius, you can't. But it only really matters when you forget that title, etc should attach to the first bar. Are you OK with the difference between Staff Text and System Text? That's an important concept in Sibelius. Now we've finished complaining and are onto specifics, is it time for a new thread? Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Chris Crawley - 17 Feb 07:40PM (edited 17 Feb 07:41PM) Hide picture Thanks for your clarification. I have to say I have not had the problems that you are encountering. Sorry - I know that's absolutely unhelpful. As regards Page Text - are you talking about text on blank (i.e pre-score) pages? That is certainly not part of the notation process, but other text within the score itself, with the exception of Composer, Title etc. obviously is. And it would be odd to treat a page with staves on it as if it were blank, and that's why text is anchored to the (relatively) fixed points represented by the staves. If what you're asking for is total freedom to put text where you like, the end result would be a lot of work to clean up the ensuing mess. A notation program has to be able to make decisions about the placement of notes, accidentals, bar-lines and so forth - otherwise it would be chaotic. And if these objects move around and others do not, a mess would result. One still has to do a fair amount of tidying up before printing a score or parts. I wouldn't like to have to do much more. I think Sibelius does a pretty good job, though as I said before, it's not intuitive. -- Chris Crawley (amateur horn-player and composer) using mainly Sibelius 6.2 (also Sibelius 7.1.3), Windows Vista Home Basic 64-bit SP2, Intel Core 2 2.8GHz, 3GB RAM, Audiophile 192/DacMagic 100 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 17 Feb 09:07PM Hide picture Chris: Maybe a graphic (attached here) will illustrate better. Note the elements on this page of sheet music: Title, Composers, Arranger, Logos, Copyright Info, etc. This text is fixed on the page. Everything else (metronome mark, rehearsal mark, staff labels, etc.) is positioned relative to the systems. In what I'm describing, the systems would move in relation to the Page Text, not the Page Text moving relative to the systems. This already occurs when it comes to page margins, for example. The systems are 'aware' of the constraints of the margins and behave accordingly. Thus, we should be able to first establish all Page Text to a fixed point within the margins of a page - it's not about being 'blank' - the systems could indeed be there. However, *they* not the Page Text would shift accordingly. The Notation Text, on the other hand, *is* relative to the music. A rehearsal mark, for example, is inserted at a precise point within the score and should 'move' if need be based upon the dynamic layout. The Page Text, on the other hand, would act as though it were 'burned into' the workspace area, movable only by the user. I don't see how this would create a 'mess' as you infer. All of the items you mention - notes, accidentals, bar-lines, etc., are all elements of the notation and would move around accordingly. Page Text would act as constraints on that movement. It's that simple. Attachment PageText.jpg (332K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Chris Crawley - 17 Feb 09:13PM Hide picture "It's that simple." All I can say is, that is not how Sibelius has been designed. Somebody decided that the non-notated text elements would not take priority over everything else. And on 99% of score pages that seems good to me. -- Chris Crawley (amateur horn-player and composer) using mainly Sibelius 6.2 (also Sibelius 7.1.3), Windows Vista Home Basic 64-bit SP2, Intel Core 2 2.8GHz, 3GB RAM, Audiophile 192/DacMagic 100 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 17 Feb 09:13PM Hide picture Laurence: In answer to your question about text, I *believe* I know the differences, but probably in definition only. System Text applies to all parts - both virtually and logically; Staff Text applies only to an individual part. There is also 'Plain Text" which, to the best of my knowledge, is nothing other than "non-System Text," but I could be wrong. As to your other request, I am simply courteously responding to Mr. Crawley's questions. I am in the process of uploading a fresh thread per your request. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Laurence Payne - 17 Feb 10:23PM Hide picture You've basically got it. Plain Text comes in both Staff and System flavours. We appreciate how you think text SHOULD work in Sibelius. It doesn't. -- FAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/sibelius.html If you want help with a score, attach the sib file! Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 17 Feb 10:40PM Hide picture FWIW, Your concept of what takes priority in a music engraving program is deeply flawed, IMHO. Everything on a page is subsidiary to the music. You have become fixated at trivial things at the expense of time better spent on your arrangements. With the exception, perhaps, of lyrics, everything else is mere decoration. I reiterate that you would find the time taken to actually read the manual would benefit you greatly, as would following some of the tutorials. You don't seem to have grasped the idea of how text is handled in Sibelius at all - despite clear and helpful suggestions from several people. You are STILL using the wrong types and styles of text to insert standard text items which already have preset positions and sizes and so on and then you wonder why it all goes wrong on you. -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Kai Struck - 18 Feb 05:59PM Hide picture If LittleReg1 wants text like Title, Composers, Arranger, to be fixed in place or size - that IS possible. You can edit the textstyle (e.g. select your title, then click the little little button on the textstyle ribbon tab for editing the style) Here you can set the vertical position relative to the page instead of system. Also you can set the font size to absolut. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 18 Feb 06:42PM Hide picture I believe I have tried explaining that... -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Kai Struck - 19 Feb 11:53AM Hide picture Of course Mike, I think you (and all the others) took great efort in helping!! I admit I didn't read all the details in the provided answeres, I just threw my short words in :-) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Dennis Larson - 23 Feb 03:07AM (edited 23 Feb 03:21AM) Hide picture While thousands of people seem to not have much difficulties with text in Sibelius, for some reason it is not working well for you. It is EXTREMELY vital that you use the appropriate text style for what you want that particular text to do. Perhaps a quick review of the starting process would be helpful. When you begin a new score, do you begin with the Quick Start window? Here you select at least one staff to be on your score (let's Treble staff). You can add time signature, key, pickup bars, tempo, etc. but don't have to (although it IS easier). But let's say you don't. Just create the staff. If you will have a pickup bar, this is the easiest place to create it. All of the examples below assume no pickup bar. If there is a pickup bar, it will be "Bar 0", not "Bar 1". Look under the top menu: VIEW. Be sure that "Attachment Lines" is checked. "Hidden Objects" is also helpful but not necessary. Now select TEXT in the top menu (not necessary to add anything, but helpful to see what's going on). And ALWAYS work with the Full Score, not the individual parts. Only work with parts when the piece is finished and you are ready to print them out. Left-click in the first bar - it should be enclosed with a light blue box. Right-click anywhere above the staff. Look down the menu that appears until you find "Text" and then "Title". Left-click on that. A blinking cursor will appear; you can type your title there. Notice that it is centered and a certain distance above the staff. When finished typing, hit ESC. The title will be selected and you'll see a grey attachment line to Bar 1. If you look to the bottom of the screen, you'll see that it is attached to Bar 1, beat 1. In the upper left-hand corner of your screen (if you have the TEXT tab selected), you will see that the text style is TITLE. This is important. See Example1 (attached). Now select Bar 1 again (left-click in it). It will have a blue box. Right-click above the score and select "Text", then "Composer". The cursor will be blinking above the staff at the right margin. Type your composer name, and hit ESC. It will be selected; look to the upper left and you'll see that the text style is COMPOSER. Look to the lower part of the screen; it it attached to Bar1, beat1. See Example2. Now let's add copyright information. Left-click again in Bar 1. It will turn blue. Right-click anywhere; select TEXT/OTHER SYSTEM TEXT/COPYRIGHT. Type your copyright information; it will appear cnetered at the bottom margin of the page. Hit ESC when you are finished. You will see that the text style (upper left) is "copyright", and it is attached to "Bar1, beat1" (lower left). See Example3. Every text style has a define position in relation to the staff it is attached to, or the page. System text appears on all parts; staff appears only on the part (staff) it is attache to. TITLE style (system text) = Center above first staff (xxx spaces above staff, or xxx below page margin, if specified). COMPOSER style (system text) - Aligned with right margin, xxx spaces above first staff. LYRICIST style (system text) - Aligned with left margin, xxx spaces above first staff. Notice that with each of these texts, you can select them and move them up and down, but you CANNOT move them horizontally (i.e., "off the page"). Each text style has its own properties in relation to the staff (or system or page). And they are attached to Bar1, beat1 (see attachment lines when you click on the text, and look at the bottom of the screen). If you move a text and want to get it back to the original position, use CTL+SHIFT+P. This will put text back to the default position. You can change that default position if you like. If you are using the TITLE text style, or the COMPOSER text style, etc. you CANNOT move them off the page (well, maybe above or below, but not to the side). If you use the appropriate text style on the full score, you can delete notes and instruments, and the title, composer, etc. will remain. However... if you delete the first bar (to which all those thing are attached), they will be gone (because that's what they were attached to). DO NOT delete Bar 1. You can delete notes, instruments, etc. but don't CTRL+CLICK (purple box) to delete the first measure. All these things will also be deleted, because they are a part of that bar. Try this: select bar 4. A blue box will appear around the bar. Right-click above the bar, select TEXT|OTHER STAFF TEXT|PLAIN TEXT. Type in something, hit ESC to exit. Notice that the text style (upper left) is Plain text; it is attached (lower left) to Bar4, beat 1 (see Example4). This will ONLY show up on this part (and the Full Score), but no other parts. If you put a System Break before bar 4 (click barline, then Return), the text associated with bar 4 stays with it and move to the next system - the Title, Composer, and Lyricist don't move, as those define text styles are in relation to Bar 1. If you delete Bar 1, all of that goes away. You can change the default positions of all of these texts; just click on the text you want to adjust, then SHIFT+CTRL+ALT+T takes you right to the text style. You can alter default positioning as you like. There are MANY other text styles that have their own individual characteristics. You have change the default characteristics, or create a new text style based upon a similar one. Some things need to be change in the APPEARANCE tab (I know, it's a quirk of Sibelius - get over it). You can save all of this to a Manuscript sheet or a House Style to import for your scores. EVERYTHING is configurable to your liking; you just need to find where to look. Once you start to see how Sibelius approaches scoring (and remember, Sibelius is a NOTATION software first and foremost -- that is, putting notes on a page for [live] musicians to play). There are hundreds of other tips for making Sibelius easy to use; a COMPLETE read of the manual is essential. Daniel was very thorough when putting the manual together. The multiple tutorials available online are also helpful (I would especially encourage everyone to find one about page layout, margins (the "CTRL+D" menu) - it is EXTREMELY helpful to understand how Sibelius deals with page layout. Minimal "moving of staves" should be necessary, if the document setup is well-understood. I hope this is helpful in your usage of Sibelius. I also found it frustrating to use initially (way back to v2); but once I let go of preconceived notions about how it *should* work, we got along excellently. And now it is my favorite software BAR NONE to use on a daily basis. I actually LOOK for projects to score, just because the software is such a pleasure to use. If it's not easy for you, you have not grasped the underlying concepts necessary to use the program effectively. This program was developed by MUSICIANS who also had computer software background. I look forward to the advancements that Daniel Spreadbury makes with a new endeavor. -- Dennis Larson Sibelius 7.5.1 / PhotoScore Pro 7.0.2 +Dell Studio XPS9000 / Core i7 / 8GB Win7 Pro 64-bit +Lenovo Yoga Pro2 / Core i7 / 8GB / Win8.1 Home 64-bit Attachments Example1.PNG.png (321K), Example2.PNG.png (295K), Example3.PNG.png (296K), Example3.PNG.png (296K), Example4.PNG.png (316K), Example5.PNG.png (334K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Dennis Larson - 23 Feb 03:49AM Hide picture I would also add, RE pickup bars: if your score is simply in the experimental stage, you're not ready to create a final score. You will need to know if you have pickup notes or not. When that is finalized, create your final score with that in mind. And all of the "first page" information should be attached to that first bar (Bar 0 if a pickup, Bar 1 if not). If you pay attention to these details, Sibelius will work enormously easier for you. -- Dennis Larson Sibelius 7.5.1 / PhotoScore Pro 7.0.2 +Dell Studio XPS9000 / Core i7 / 8GB Win7 Pro 64-bit +Lenovo Yoga Pro2 / Core i7 / 8GB / Win8.1 Home 64-bit Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 23 Feb 04:34AM Hide picture Dennis: Thank you for all this work...that was very kind of you. This is all far clearer than anything in the manual. I'm going to add it to my notes and create a fresh template. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Dennis Larson - 23 Feb 02:13PM Hide picture I would also add that if you have Title, Composer, etc. in place (Bar 1, beat 1), and then you (for whatever reason) decided to add 30 new bars at the beginning, that will really make a mess of things. After inserting 30 bars, those texts are now attached to Bar 31... which could be pushed to the second or third page. Yikes, what a problem! This could conceivably move the text "off page". Then, if you start manually pushing it around you'll end up with a complete mess. Instead, if you need to add extra bars, insert them in Bar 2. Remember, any given text style could be defined as "at Bar X, beat X, add TEXT xxx spaces above and xxx spaces left/right of the attachment point, in XXX font and XXX point size." Every text style which is already set up is define for a particular purpose. You can modify those parameter if you wish, or you can create your own. But the ATTACHMENT POINT is critical. For the most part, you shouldn't need to manually move text other than minimally. If you DO need to make major moves, use cut/paste instead of dragging. After cutting the text (CTRL+X), select the note (or beat) you want to attach it to (first page information would be Bar 1, beat 1), and paste (CTRL+V). This will insure that the text is attached to the proper beat. If you manually drag it, it could end up elsewhere. If you DO have text that is "off page" or wildly out of position, and can't grab it, do a SELECT ALL (CTRL+A) to see the attachment point. ESC to unselect. Now CTRL+Click in the bar those lines are attached to - the bar will turn purple, and you'll see those attachment lines again. Reset the position of the text with SHFT+CTRL+P. Or you can draw a selection box around it by SHFT+Click and drag (don't release the mouse until your box surrounds the text). Then the errant text should be selected and you can reset the position (SHFT+CTRL+P). Again, all of this should happen in the full score, not parts. Remember that UNDO (CTRL+Z) is your best friend. ;-) After playing around with the different text styles a bit, the chapter on text in the manual may make more sense. I had trouble understanding it at first too, but it became much easier (and I stopped fighting with the program) after I grasped the concepts of different text styles and how they work (system text vs. staff text). Good luck! -- Dennis Larson Sibelius 7.5.1 / PhotoScore Pro 7.0.2 +Dell Studio XPS9000 / Core i7 / 8GB Win7 Pro 64-bit +Lenovo Yoga Pro2 / Core i7 / 8GB / Win8.1 Home 64-bit Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 23 Feb 02:38PM Hide picture It's interesting that by inserting *music* into a score, that the *page layout* can get screwed up - the latter having nothing at all conceptually to do with the former. The Title of a composition should care less if there is one measure on the page or 100. If they insist on this bizarre scheme of 'attachment points,' then they should have attached everything that infers fixed-location styles to the bar line that begins the entire composition, to the left of the initial clef. That way, you could insert as many measures as you want to the right of that line without disturbing the layout. Sibelius already understands this relationship in the systems. That's why when you insert additional measures at the beginning of the piece, it doesn't change or ask for key signature, meter signature, etc. It's also why it's difficult to manually create a pickup bar and why a plugin had to be written. I've explained before that I've Ctrl-Z'd so much that these keys are getting worn on my keyboard. :-) However, I've run into trouble when Sibelius does something that I simply don't notice, or is actually off screen. Ctrl+Z then forces me to undo what is many times a serious amount of work just to get back to the break point. I had been trying to avoid having to create iterative copies of the scores just for babysitting. Your instructions are valuable, however, and your remarks about learning (trial and error, folks such as you and those who have responded) PRECEDING comprehension of the manual are telling. I happen to agree with your last paragraph here wholeheartedly. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Chris Crawley - 04 Mar 05:42PM (edited 04 Mar 05:42PM) Hide picture "It's interesting that by inserting *music* into a score, that the *page layout* can get screwed up..." Cart before horse. The music is the important thing, and that should be what you insert first, having specified your instruments/staves. The layout can be sorted out later. You can start with Title, Composer etc. and Sibelius offers you this, but often I don't bother with that until later. "...they should have attached everything that infers fixed-location styles to the bar line that begins the entire composition, to the left of the initial clef. That way, you could insert as many measures as you want to the right of that line without disturbing the layout." Same thing - just input the music first. You seem to be overly concerned, at the beginning of the process of notating a piece of music, with everything but the notes! I'm sorry to see someone getting so stressed about it all. And even if you don't agree with me, there is absolutely no point in saying, to yourself - or to us on here - "They should have done it my way." They just didn't. And in my view, they were right. -- Chris Crawley (horn-player and composer) using mainly Sibelius 6.2 (also Sibelius 7.1.3), Windows Vista Home Basic 64-bit SP2, Intel Core 2 2.8GHz, 3GB RAM, Audiophile 192/DacMagic 100 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 04 Mar 07:03PM Hide picture Chris: You seem to not have read what I wrote very carefully. Yes, I'm concerned about the text elements first because once I start composing, I don't want things that I've previously placed moving all around. If it were up to you, since a house is 'more important' than its foundation, you wouldn't care if you use concrete or sand. Logically, priorities are not necessarily in sequence by order of importance. Are margins the 'most important' part of the composition? Of course not. Yet, without margins all of the rest of the elements on the pages would have no controls to them. You also display a general ignorance of how we perceive text elements in terms of placement on the page, font size, etc., as well as how traditional sheet music (including classical scores) have been created. It's absurd to believe that since the, say, Title of a piece is 'less important' than the music itself, then it could be shoved all over the place by the music systems. Locating the Title in between the first and second systems in a score would be ludicrous, and rendering the concept of 'Title' meaningless. People wouldn't know what to look for or why. In a piece of sheet music, layouts and spacing in systems indeed vary. You can examine examples from various publishers, types of music ('Piano/Vocal,' etc.), sizes of pages, etc. However, page text elements - Title, Composer, Copyright, etc. - are all consistent throughout that publisher's product. Even if I have to explain this again and again (which it seems that I do), my original question has never been answered: what is the use case for having a Page Element linked to a staff? In other words, who wants a Title to move just because an additional quarter note has been inserted into the first measure? So far, the only direct response I've had to this question in: "That's the way it is." So much for intelligence. Others have more graciously instructed me has to how to create actual fixed-location text on the page (use styles, set pixel specifications, etc.), but this only shows how irrational the original system of Page Text placement is in the first place and why so many text types had to be 'stylized.' Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 04 Mar 11:31PM Hide picture > Chris: > > You seem to not have read what I wrote very carefully. Yes, I'm concerned about the text elements first because once I start composing, I don't want things that I've previously placed moving all around. If it were up to you, since a house is 'more important' than its foundation, you wouldn't care if you use concrete or sand. Logically, priorities are not necessarily in sequence by order of importance. > At the risk of my getting annoyed with you all over again... 1. Read the manual. 2. Having read the manual, use the correct text style (as designated in the manual) for your title and position it in the correct place on the page using whatever method suits you best. > Are margins the 'most important' part of the composition? Of course not. Yet, without margins all of the rest of the elements on the pages would have no controls to them. You also display a general ignorance of how we perceive text elements in terms of placement on the page, font size, etc., as well as how traditional sheet music (including classical scores) have been created. > A red herring. The margins already default to more-or-less suitable values and can be set to default to any that the user prefers. You will find this in the manual. > It's absurd to believe that since the, say, Title of a piece is 'less important' than the music itself, then it could be shoved all over the place by the music systems. Locating the Title in between the first and second systems in a score would be ludicrous, and rendering the concept of 'Title' meaningless. People wouldn't know what to look for or why. > No. It's absurd to believe that ignoring the basic tenets of a program that has been in use by all manner of people from beginner to professional typesetter for a large number of years will allow you to do whatever you like without regard for the in-built rules of the program without there being consequences. It's also absurd to obsess in such a fashion about such trivia as the placement of the title of a piece of music when you haven't even written a single note yet! There are a number of reasons why one might wish to insert a title in a place other than the very first bar, and even a simpleton would understand that, because this is not a frequent wish, there might be consequences to so doing. > In a piece of sheet music, layouts and spacing in systems indeed vary. You can examine examples from various publishers, types of music ('Piano/Vocal,' etc.), sizes of pages, etc. However, page text elements - Title, Composer, Copyright, etc. - are all consistent throughout that publisher's product. > Indeed, but Sibelius doesn't actually know - or care - which publisher you are using. Therefore, unless you instruct it appropriately, it cannot do this for you automatically. > Even if I have to explain this again and again (which it seems that I do), my original question has never been answered: what is the use case for having a Page Element linked to a staff? In other words, who wants a Title to move just because an additional quarter note has been inserted into the first measure? > A title is not (I REPEAT - NOT) necessarily always a page element. Just because you appear to think it is does not make it so. > So far, the only direct response I've had to this question in: "That's the way it is." So much for intelligence. Others have more graciously instructed me has to how to create actual fixed-location text on the page (use styles, set pixel specifications, etc.), but this only shows how irrational the original system of Page Text placement is in the first place and why so many text types had to be 'stylized.' You REALLY need to actually READ the manual. Might I respectfully suggest that, if Sibelius is so far short of your ideal, you go and obtain a copy of Finale. Come back when it fails to meet your expectations or, better still, design your own. -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Noel Fidge - 05 Mar 02:36AM Hide picture Mike, you have favorites apparently. And excessive patience! If I'd ranted like this you would have knocked me off after the first post! As a musician, I can say that (after Finale) I found Sibelius THE most intuitive software programme I've used and not only supported by a thorough manual but by a wonderful forum manned by very gracious people. And I did read the manual when I first started. -- Noel Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Chris Crawley - 05 Mar 12:32AM Hide picture "...once I start composing, I don't want things that I've previously placed moving all around." So don't put those things (text) in first. Put the notes in first. "It's absurd to believe that since the, say, Title of a piece is 'less important' than the music itself, then it could be shoved all over the place by the music systems. Locating the Title in between the first and second systems in a score would be ludicrous..." ... and that won't happen unless you make it happen. I find that I can input the majority of the text I need as I input notes - in other words, staff and system text. These are anchored fairly logically to the notes or bars they are connected to, and if they are moved around by subsequent changes to the notation, 99% of the time that's OK. I don't bother with anything else (i.e. text that relates to specific pages) until the end. And I don't find that tidying everything up takes much time at this point. I'm sorry if I sound tetchy. I went away for a few days, having believed that you had settled down into learning the program. I come back and find that you are still torturing yourself. I suggest you focus on inputting some music and tidying up all the text problems later. -- Chris Crawley (horn-player and composer) using mainly Sibelius 6.2 (also Sibelius 7.1.3), Windows Vista Home Basic 64-bit SP2, Intel Core 2 2.8GHz, 3GB RAM, Audiophile 192/DacMagic 100 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 05 Mar 08:02AM (edited 05 Mar 08:05AM) Hide picture Hi Noel, I don't have favourites but, as I get older, I find children irritate me much more than they used to! ;-) You credit me with far more power than I have. As Bob Z is wont to say, "I'm just an experienced user of Sibelius" I can't block people off the forum and wouldn't exercise that power if I had it. Everybody deserves a chance, even if their main approach is to rant and rave. LittleReg: I've just had a though that might help: If you are so obsessed with things being static on a page, try setting your score to have a set number of bars (choose a sensible value - say 3 or 4). Set up a blank score with (say) 100 bars. (Home->Bars->Add->Add Multiple Or Irregular Bars) (type 95 into the number box) Use the plugin "Home->plugins->other->Make Layout Uniform" and set it to 3 or 4 bars per system. After you have done this, insert your title and other text. Unless you are writing very complicated music, nothing should move. If you use wildcards for the title etc, you could save this as a MSS paper (File->Export->Manuscript Paper) and use it for every piece you ever write. Sorry, just remembered - one of Sib's quirks with MSS paper is that it always cuts down the number of bars to 5, so, if you save the file directly into the MSS paper folder - on my machine it is at - C:\Users\MikeLyons\AppData\Roaming\Avid\Sibelius 7.5\Manuscript Paper\Band, you will get around that issue. Just make sure you save it with a unique filename and that you only have in it the information (text/wildcards etc that you want to transfer to every piece of music that you write using this MSS. The information to do all of this (except the last bit) is in the manual, Chapter 1.21) There, I'm done! -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 05 Mar 03:51PM Hide picture Mike: I've been using styles - as instructed here - and they are working fine, as long as I don't have to make adjustments. I also see how to change fixed locations, but it is a somewhat arduous process since you have to close the dialog and save the changes in order to see the impact of the pixel coordinates on your layout. I'm creating a series of templates where all of the text for the page is fixed. As mentioned before, I've figured out all the system text nuances previously and these are working well, also. Yes, I'm also providing unique labels for each. Thank you. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Jeff Hale - 05 Mar 08:26PM Hide picture "but it is a somewhat arduous process since you have to close the dialog and save the changes in order to see the impact of the pixel coordinates on your layout." After you make your changes, select the object you've changed and click "Reset Position" -- windows XP Professional, Sibelius 7.1.3 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Noel Fidge - 06 Mar 01:49AM Hide picture Hi Noel, I don't have favourites but, as I get older, I find children irritate me much more than they used to! ;-) Me too Mike; especially brats. And even if adults show a proclivity for prolixity then one mustn't get too irritated! -- Noel Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 06 Mar 03:45AM Hide picture Jeff: Of course I can reset the position, but isn't the idea that you wish to change the position the reason that you're resetting the numbers to begin with? The way that the software forces you to position text (styles or no) is that the text 'appears' in a certain spot on the page. If you're using styles, you can Edit the style and see where the text has been pre-configured to reside. However, there are no references on the page that match what the Properties reveal are the 'coordinates' of the positioning. According to the Reference Manual (which I allegedly do not read), there are three and only three types of text that Sibelius offers, two of which are arbitrarily related to music staffs. The only type of text which Sibelius lets you have is this so-called 'blank page' text, and according to the loose definition in the guide, this kind of text can be used only on a literally blank page. This means that if you want to have music systems positioned with your text, you have to use one of the other types of text: Staff Text, which the manual poorly defines redundantly as 'attached to a staff,' but explains nothing in terms of what this 'attachment' is and the architecture behind it; and 'System Text,' which is also poorly defined. Going by these definitions, the reader assumes the following: 1) There are instances where text applies only to a certain part, therefore, according to the manual, if I wish to indicate to a musician that a part is a solo at a certain point, I'll apply a Staff Text style to that staff and position the text in an appropriate place in the score. I've used this text style and it works very well - I am particularly impressed with how Magnetic Layout considers the positioning of the text. 2) There are instances where text applies to all parts, such as a Rehearsal Mark, so I have used this text style as well. It too, works very well, although there are a few times when Sibelius seems to get a little confused between how it's going to position the text for one part vs. another, but this is not an issue. I simple drag & drop adjustment and we're good. Now, what is common with the above text styles? Answer: each text style applies only to staves...the music. There are numerous usages of music-based text that are possible to use, and Sibelius seems to be aware of all that I've ever seen in 50 years of being a musician/composer. So...if we go back to the manual, we see that we can have three and only three types of text: 1) Text that accompanies a single part in a system. 2) Text that accompanies all parts in a system. 3) Text that can only be inserted on a blank page. Where does Title, Composer, Date, Copyright, etc., fit into any of the above concepts? It doesn't. And anyone who at least has a dictionary should be able to see this. A 'Title' is not text that accompanies a single part in a system. A 'Title' is not text that accompanies all parts in a system (and the manual acknowledges this: "...typically tempo or rehearsal directions). And, although it's indeed possible to create a Title Page (blank page), it is also quite common to want the title on the first page of the score (and possibly on multiple pages.) Thus, the user is forced to select one of the above types of text, then make it so that it doesn't move around (in the case of a Title)...even though - as I've noted repeatedly - there is probably not a single use case where a user would want a Title to move. We can't use Drag & Drop to position text because unless it's Blank Page text, it will be anchored to the staves in a system. So...we have to use this System Text Style dialog which goes into minute detail as to how to position text...all the way down to decimal values. OK, I want to permanently fix horizontal and vertical position of a piece of text. The software forces me to click numbers at random, click OK to see if I like what I have, then Reset Position if I don't like it. Or...simply take another guess...then another...then another...until I finally get something I believe will work. According to some in this thread, Text is allegedly a minor issue. "The music is what's important!" they say and I suppose how their charts appear to their musicians is of little importance. Well, I disagree...and curiously, so does the Reference Manual. An entire primary section of the Manual (5) is devoted solely to text - what a waste of time, huh? Yet, after reading through this numerous times, I find that there is little in there which explains how these three text categories actually work and what you have to do to easily make changes. 'Page Text' - as I call it - it briefly dealt with on page 416 of the manual. It says nothing about how this text works (compare this to the nice detail provided on page 414 for expression and technique text). Instead, it only tells you how you can adjust it...one tedious guess at a time. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 06 Mar 07:16AM (edited 06 Mar 08:31AM) Hide picture There is definitely something wrong with your manual. Page 414 in my manual is about tremolos. Page 416 is blank. The chapter on text begins at page 417 (It is chapter 5.) [/quote]So what is a text style, anyway? There are many different kinds of text in used in scores, such as: lyrics, which go below the staff; expression markings, which are italic and normally go below the staff (except when there are lyrics present, in which case they go above the staff); **titles which are big, bold and centered at the top of the page**; and so on. Each kind of text may use a different font, formatting (such as bold, italic and, rarely, underlined), justification (such as left-, center- or right-alignment), and positioning (such as whether the text should appear above or below one staff or all staves, or perhaps at the top or bottom of the page). These settings together are what make up a text style. Because Sibelius has text styles for each of the kinds of text you will need to write in your score, you don’t need to set any of this up for yourself: simply choose the appropriate text style, and Sibelius will produce text that looks right, and that goes in the right place on the page. The other advantage of text styles is that if you want to change something about the appearance of text in your score – for example, you want to make all your lyrics bigger, or make your tempo instructions use a different font – you need only change the text style itself, and Sibelius will automatically update all the text in the score that uses that text style. As well as text styles, Sibelius also has character styles, which are typically used to apply specific font, size or formatting to part of a text object. The most commonly used character style is called Music text, which is used to insert musical symbols such as notes into text objects that need them, like metronome marks, and to produce the special bold, italic letters used as dynamics. Character styles can also be useful for adding emphasis, e.g. making one word in a run of text use italics or bold, and the advantage of using a character style over simply selecting that word and making it italic or bold is that if you subsequently change your mind about what you want to use for emphasis, you need only edit that character style to have those changes applied automatically to all text objects that use it.[/quote] One of the reasons that you get more information about Tempo and Dynamics is that they actually affect the playback of the music. Title text doesn't. Titles are generally centred between the left and right margins above the first staff. They are (properly) attached to the first bar of music and do not move sideways. (However, do be aware that the attachment point can move sideways because there are occasions when you want a title to be attached to a bar other than the first one.) If you use the title text style this will be so. You can drag the title up and down, though it does have a default vertical position on the page - which you can change. The position of the title in a part is, generally, different to the position of the title on the score (there is usually more room, for a a start) but you can fix this position (by dragging) on one part and copy it to the others. >Going by these definitions, the reader assumes the following: > Never assume, it makes an ass of you and me! >Where does Title, Composer, Date, Copyright, etc., fit into any of the above concepts? It doesn't. And anyone who at least has a dictionary should be able to see this. Indeed, and these types of text don't, apparently, need to appear in all of the parts? (Of course they do, that's why they are considered to be system objects!) >A 'Title' is not text that accompanies a single part in a system. A 'Title' is not text that accompanies all parts in a system (and the manual acknowledges this: "...typically tempo or rehearsal directions). And, although it's indeed possible to create a Title Page (blank page), it is also quite common to want the title on the first page of the score (and possibly on multiple pages.) A Title will appear in EVERY part which is why it is system text. It has a set position (which you can change) that is built into the title text style and which you can change at will. It will always be centred horizontally (relative to the page, but can change, depending on where the attachment point is.) If you try dragging it from side to side it will not move - but its attachment point will! (Ditto for composer/lyricist etc which are fixed at left or right.) >Thus, the user is forced to select one of the above types of text, then make it so that it doesn't move around (in the case of a Title)...even though - as I've noted repeatedly - there is probably not a single use case where a user would want a Title to move. The user is not forced to do anything. If you want to change the position of objects globally, you can do so - but if you have a brain cell in your head, you will set that up before you insert your title. >We can't use Drag & Drop to position text because unless it's Blank Page text, it will be anchored to the staves in a system. So...we have to use this System Text Style dialog which goes into minute detail as to how to position text...all the way down to decimal values. You certainly can use drag and drop! Title text is centred, but you can move it vertically in both the parts and in the score. If you turn on the selection rulers, you can see the vertical position value change. Once you are happy with your title's position it will not change, provided you inserted it in the first bar of the music to which it belongs. If you go to a part, the vertical position of the title will be different, because the text style definition defaults to different positions in parts, but you can alter the vertical position to your heart's content. Once happy (if that is at all possible) that position can be copied to all parts. >OK, I want to permanently fix horizontal and vertical position of a piece of text. The software forces me to click numbers at random, click OK to see if I like what I have, then Reset Position if I don't like it. Or...simply take another guess...then another...then another...until I finally get something I believe will work. Once again - you are not forced to do anything. You can set up your text to suit your own very exacting needs. Sibelius is supplied with a certain set of defaults that are, mostly, sensible starting points. You can change these as much or as little as you want. Nobody wants to force you to do anything. However, Sibelius doesn't know you. Like a tabloid horoscope, it has the most generally acceptable defaults. Unlike such a horoscope, it allows you to change its defaults to anything you like, thus determining your own future. >According to some in this thread, Text is allegedly a minor issue. "The music is what's important!" they say and I suppose how their charts appear to their musicians is of little importance. Well, I disagree...and curiously, so does the Reference Manual. An entire primary section of the Manual (5) is devoted solely to text - what a waste of time, huh? Yet, after reading through this numerous times, I find that there is little in there which explains how these three text categories actually work and what you have to do to easily make changes. This statement shows just how juvenile you really are. The final placement of text items is something that is largely undertaken at the end of the composition process, when the music is being prepared for publication. I, for one, take great care that my scores and parts are as clear and legible as possible for my musicians to read. However, I stress - yet again - that the music is the most important thing. I dread to think how much time you have wasted obsessing over trivia instead of writing your music. I'm retired, I have loads of time to work on my music. I sincerely hope you haven't got a deadline heading your way. Anyway, decision time. I normally charge £39.00GBP per hour for lessons in using Sibelius. I have given you far more time for free than your attitude merits. If you want any more lessons, email me. [Edit @ 08:05 - I hate giving up. The attached image may (or may not) help you. Sorry if it turns out fuzzy, but as it's a full screen dump it was a little too big for the file size limit and I have had to resize it.] -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Attachment titles.jpg (810K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by LittleReg1 - 06 Mar 02:55PM Hide picture Mike: It's actually quite telling that you charge - and receive - a hefty sum for giving 'lessons' in Sibelius. I, for one, would not disagree with your fees. I, too, took lessons, and paid $100 per hour for the privilege. I had a good teacher, but the lessons centered around each issue I was having with Sibelius and not an overall understanding of the architecture. The explanations and maneuvering on the text portion of my 'curriculum' required 3-4 hours just to wade through...and I was simply following directions! There were so many caveats and contradictions - nothing I invented, but things I noticed, which required explanations. If what I'm calling 'page text' is added at the end of the process as you say (which makes more sense to me now), then why the Wizard at the beginning of a New file process inviting users to enter text there? This sends the message to the user that it makes no difference when text is entered. And...there is nothing in the manual which warns about the foibles related to entering text first. As to my list items, note that I have endeavored to use Sibelius' own terminology when describing things, but which you keep ignoring. I get these terms straight out of the manual. I understand that there are many different *styles* of text that Sibelius offers. That's not what I wrote. I said that there are only three *types* of text. A style is a subset of type. Thus, in a logical learning process, it makes no sense to investigate styles of a type that you are not interested in for a particular task. I did not create this terminology or the logical hierarchy that is used in the manual. Instead, I attempted to follow it. For example, the manual clearly states that System Text is text that accompanies systems. Well, what is a 'system?' It is a grouping of multiple staves. One staff...many staves. The staves include 'musical elements.' Ask yourself: how on earth would someone who is familiar with these terms (as I am) infer that 'Title' is 'system text?' Where in the manual does it say that 'Title' is 'system text?' 'Title' is not a 'musical element.' Of course, I might want the Title on every page (or not), but how does this make Title 'system text?' It doesn't. The definition of the term in the manual doesn't include it and the manual does not tell the user what it is. If Sibelius is going to write new definitions of established musical terms, the least it could do is include these definitions in the documentation. You cannot use Drag & Drop to position text...only to relocate it. Again, I have to keep defining what I had believed to be commonly understood terms (also not defined in the manual). 'Position' means to place an item - in other words, the location is the object and not the item. Locate means to place an item relative to something else, meaning that wherever that anchor point goes, so does the item, like a rehearsal mark. Drag & Drop only allows the user to move text, not to position it. No dialog box appears asking the user if the new position is to be considered fixed or dynamic. Instead, users have to engage the Properties dialog and guess where pixels and millimeters appear on their virtual paper. 'Forced' means that I cannot used the method I wish to understand how Sibelius will react to a command. Of course I know that I can undo and change things - did you honestly believe that I meant otherwise? Instead, my example showed - clearly - that while attempting to fix Vertical and Horizontal position, users cannot see the consequences of their selections until the dialog is closed. If they don't like what they've selected, then they have to engage the dialog again and again until they do. There is no grid provided on the screen, no set of coordinates, no guide arrows...nothing but trial and error. For something as arbitrary as this process is, one would think that an 'Apply' function would at least be provided or (again) a dialog that asks the user if the app should fix the position of the text for the user and figure out the mm coordinates on its own. Yes, you could send me a bill for your efforts here - if you want to, go ahead and I will pay it. I should send a bill to Avid for the UI consulting work I've done, as well as for pointing out flaws in this so-called 'reference manual' of which you can't really *refer* to anything. I've asked repeatedly: Where - exactly - in the manual is addressed? The only response is: "Read the manual, Grasshopper." It's as if the manual is some sort of sacred text meant for a Chosen Few of 'enlightened' individuals, and that those who struggle with it are 'unworthy' (juvenile, as you and Noel have put it) and need to study harder. Maybe the manual I have is a complete piece of trash because everyone keeps insisting that I might have the 'wrong' one. I've attached an image sample to demonstrate that my references are correct from my vantage point. That would be the icing on the cake here: $700 for software with the 'wrong' documentation. This would speak volumes. Attachment manual414.jpg (353K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Chris Crawley - 06 Mar 04:23PM Hide picture I was going to make a comment, but, on further thought, (a) it won't say anything new and (b) it will not be constructive. All I will say is that I am astonished at the length of this thread and the mind-set it reveals. However, I wish LR all the best in getting what he wants from the program - whatever that is. --- Chris Crawley (horn-player and composer) using mainly Sibelius 6.2 (also Sibelius 7.1.3), Windows Vista Home Basic 64-bit SP2, Intel Core 2 2.8GHz, 3GB RAM, Audiophile 192/DacMagic 100 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Robin Walker - 06 Mar 05:01PM Hide picture > I've attached an image sample to demonstrate that my references are correct from my vantage point. The attached image is taken from the Reference Manual for versions 7.1.2 or 7.1.3, whereas others have been quoting page numbers from the Reference Manual for version 7.5. Apart from the page numbers, it matters little, as nothing significant has changed from 7.1 to 7.5 in the areas under debate. -- Sibelius 7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6.3 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1 4GB, Windows 8.1 64-bit 16GB. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Mike Lyons - 06 Mar 06:30PM Hide picture Ok. We have reached the point of the definition of insanity. I don't feel I can do any more. -- 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: Text Behavior Posted by Maik - 06 Mar 09:26PM (edited 06 Mar 09:37PM) Hide picture Maybe This will help: http://blogs.online.berklee.edu/tomrudolph/2013/02/05/entering-text-in-sibelius/ http://johnhinchey.com/2012/02/19/sibelius-plugins-hey-what-happened-to-all-my-page-text/ Back to top | All threads