Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 05 Dec 02:05PM Hide picture Earlier this week I took delivery of XSample Chamber Ensemble and I'm having real problems in setting it up and working like I think it should work. Earlier today I sent a long email to XSample and have just had a brief reply from Hans Josef Winkler. He really didn't answer any of my questions, said it's a Sibelius issue, that he uses Finale and that Georg Stahl has left and gave the impression that he was the Sibelius expert! I'm reposting part of my email here (with apologies for the length!) in the hope that someone here can help (Bob??). Here's part of the email which describes a particular set up issue: "My impressions so far are not good, I'm sorry to say! I've found your documentation both out of date and confusing, to say the least. I'll describe what I have been trying to do and the problems I have had. I think what follows is likely to be quite long, but I want to give you as much information as possible so that you can give me some solutions. I have Kontakt player registered and working. I am using Sibelius 7.5.1 build 209 within Windows 7 in 64bit. I have put the XSample sound set file in the proper Sibelius folder and the House style file in the proper folder and can access them both in Sibelius. I presume that although your documentation shows several house styles (page 3 of 'Assistance - XSample Library in Sibelius'), I presume these are all now incorporated into one? Once I have imported the XSample house style, I go to the Playback devices, activate XSample so that it is showing in the Activated devices window on the right. I can access the available XSample sound sets in the drop down menu for the sound sets. I understand the difference between most of the XS options, but what is the meaning of the SOD extension that some of the sound sets have? I choose the Chamber Ensemble Stereo then create a new file from the Sibelius menu (new). From the Home tab I choose Add new instrument and choose the Violin from the XCE drop down menu. I know have a manuscript page of a single stave of Violin. I enter some notes and they all play. If I choose any of the first ten articulations on page 17 of the printed booklet provided most of them work as expected, but the natural harmonics don't (I've tried both the harmonics symbol from the symbols menu and the harmonic symbol from the keypad menu) neither does senza vibrato con sordino. However, none of the remaining articulation do. Looking at the articulations given in the document 'XSample Library Sibelius Keyword List 20130513' the impression given is that by entering a keyword as technique text then they should work as expected. But they don't - so what am I doing wrong? I have checked the playback dictionary and all the articulations are shown with their abbreviations and their XSample sound id. So how do I use these articulations in the score?" Andrew Harvey Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Robin Walker - 05 Dec 02:22PM Hide picture Please attach a Sibelius .sib score file which demonstrates the issues, and direct us to the relevant point in the score. -- Sibelius 7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6.3 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1 4GB, Windows 8.1 64-bit 16GB. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 05 Dec 02:39PM Hide picture Robin, Thanks for such a very prompt reply! I'm only doing tests at the moment, so I've attached a few bars that show the problem. The first harmonic is from the keypad; the second from the symbols menu, the harm.sul A, fingers noises and mute do nothing, but the snap (from symbols menu) and pizz do. With the exception of the two first harmonics and the snap pizz, the other articulations were entered using control+T. All the articulations I've used are shown in the playback dictionary. Clearly the 'extra' articulations aren't triggering the appropriate sounds, but I can't work out why (and I've tried for quite some time!). Andrew Attachment XSample test 1.sib (133K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Bob Morabito - 05 Dec 02:48PM Hide picture In case theyre needed pls see: http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=525614&groupid=3&&guest=1 http://www.mymac.com/2011/05/httpwww-xsample-de/ Also I believe SOD is The Download Edition of XCE, probably standing for Sounds On Demand. The two above reviews were done with the disk edition, and all I wirte here is based on that, in case there are any differences.. >the natural harmonics don't (I've tried both the harmonics symbol from the symbols menu and the harmonic symbol from the keypad menu) Pls try "harm." (no quotes, period at end) >neither does senza vibrato con sordino what technique text are you using to try and accomplish this-- non vib mute? Not all of the instruments play all articulations--please see attachment. Thanks Bob -- Bob Morabito Sib 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5.1 Mac OS 10.9.5 iMac 32GB RAM, 1 TB SSD Attachment Screen Shot 2014-12-05 at 9.44.12 AM.png (427K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 05 Dec 03:05PM Hide picture Thanks Bob. I had looked at all the sources you gave - including your full review - before I posted here. Sadly, I couldn't find any solution. I've tried 'harm.' (without the quotes) and no effect. I uploaded a very short example of my problem as requested by Robin Walker - if you can access that can you get the articulations to play? Regards Andrew Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Bob Morabito - 05 Dec 03:07PM Hide picture PS My response above was posted before I saw you had posted an example--can you pls attach a Sib 7.1.3 version of your score? I cant use my Sib 7.5.1 at the moment. Thanks Bob -- Bob Morabito Sib 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5.1 Mac OS 10.9.5 iMac 32GB RAM, 1 TB SSD Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Bob Morabito - 05 Dec 03:08PM Hide picture PPS..we keep cross posting Andrew:) -- Bob Morabito Sib 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5.1 Mac OS 10.9.5 iMac 32GB RAM, 1 TB SSD Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 05 Dec 03:11PM Hide picture > PPS..we keep cross posting Andrew:) > That's because we're so keen :-) A version of the same file but exported from 7.5 for 7 is attached. Andrew Attachment XSample test 1 (sib 7).sib (137K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Bob Morabito - 05 Dec 03:21PM Hide picture I just opened it and will try to look at it later--but for starters you need ord. norm. or nat when changing articulations, with the exception of changing from normal playing to pizz, and vice versa. Thanks Bob PS What Sound set are you using? -- Bob Morabito Sib 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5.1 Mac OS 10.9.5 iMac 32GB RAM, 1 TB SSD Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 05 Dec 03:26PM Hide picture > I just opened it and will try to look at it later--but for starters you need ord. norm. or nat when changing articulations, with the exception of changing from normal playing to pizz, and vice versa. Yes, I know - the Sibelius page from the XSample booklet that you posted shows nat., ord., norm - so I was using norm. I have tried inserting norm after the articulations in my score sample and since the articulation isn't triggered in the first place then of course it has no effect. I just keep thinking I'm missing something but I really can't see what! > > PS What Sound set are you using? XSample Chamber Ensemble Stereo. Regards Andrew Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Bob Morabito - 05 Dec 03:32PM Hide picture >Yes, I know - the Sibelius page from the XSample booklet that you posted shows nat., ord., norm - so I was using norm. I have tried inserting norm after the articulations in my score sample and since the articulation isn't triggered in the first place then of course it has no effect Yes but its needed for any chance to hear the different articulations. >XSample Chamber Ensemble Stereo. Thanks Bob -- Bob Morabito Sib 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5.1 Mac OS 10.9.5 iMac 32GB RAM, 1 TB SSD Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 05 Dec 03:38PM Hide picture > Yes but its needed for any chance to hear the different articulations. Ok - point taken. I've redone my sample score and it's attached. Still doesn't work. Regards Andrew Attachment XSample test 2.sib (133K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Bob Morabito - 05 Dec 04:27PM Hide picture OK,.I got it all to work...the problem, best I can tell, is with the house style you used. I say this because I tried your example, and it didnt work here either. So I pasted your notes into a quartet Im working on, and they started working. Some observations: The "Harm. sul A" ONLY works on the Bass...pls see again the attachment I had from above. Otherwise the "harm." and "o" work, though the note had to be raised an octave For finger, in my Playback dictionary, it was set to "reset"--which makes it work the same as ord. norm. and nat. I tried adding "+only.finger" as again thats what attachment shows, as the Sound ID--Im not sure the results are correct, as Im really not sure what this articulation is supposed to sound like. I also added the non vib mute to your example, which I attach, as an added bonus..:):) in Sib 7.1.3 format. I added "+non vibrato.mute" as the Sound ID to the Playback Dictionary--the spacing is exaggerated to show what Ive done. Hope this helps-it was a major undertaking:). And use the housetyle of my example when you work with XCE. Thanks Bob -- Bob Morabito Sib 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5.1 Mac OS 10.9.5 iMac 32GB RAM, 1 TB SSD Attachment Xsample.sib (88K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 06 Dec 09:49PM Hide picture Bob, Thanks so much for your time and effort and help with this! I had a welcome day away from sitting in front of the computer which is why I didn't get back here sooner. There is something clearly going wrong with (in my case) the communication between Sibelius and Kontakt. When closing a score which used XSample which used Kontakt, then when I closed the score I got a crash and a runtime error R6025. If I opened a score that used Sibelius sounds or Noteperformer and closed them then no crash, so I assumed the problem must be Kontakt. So I spent some time today uninstalling and reinstalling it. I'm using the latest Kontakt player that I downloaded from Native Instruments a couple of days ago. I admit that I'm stumped! I know there have been previous posts about Sibelius and the same runtime error, but as far as I can see the finger is pointing at Kontakt but I don't know what to do about it. I really didn't plan on spending all these hours installing what should be a simple sound library! If anyone has any ideas I'd be very grateful. Andrew Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Bob Morabito - 06 Dec 10:25PM (edited 06 Dec 10:26PM) Hide picture You're very welcome Andrew--you didnt say if it worked before you closed the score and crashed? >I'm using the latest Kontakt player that I downloaded from Native Instruments a couple of days ago. Please tell us the version etc.--as much info as possible: Heres the download link for Kontakt Player 5 http://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/samplers/kontakt-5-player/free-download/ and for Kontakt Player 4, which can then be updated in your NI Service center: http://www.tucows.com/preview/853528 I would have both installed NEW, and try either one with XSample. Im not so sure this is all XSamples fault, Andrew. Thanks Bob -- Bob Morabito Sib 5.2.5, 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5.1 Mac OS 10.9.5 iMac 32GB RAM, 1 TB SSD Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 06 Dec 10:54PM Hide picture Ok - here goes - I'll describe in graphic detail what happens. This is with the latest 64 bit version of Kontakt player - v5.4.1.211 and Sibelius 7.5.1 also 64 bit on a Win 7 pc with all the updates. I've reinstalled Kontakt player twice now. The standalone version runs fine and I can load the XSamples into and play them. Open Sibelius. Open example file you sent me. Since NotePerformer is installed by default, I can play the file but of course without most of the articulations, but it sounds. I close the file and no problems. Same if I switch to Sibelius sounds configuration. Open the same file again. This time, in configuration switch to XSample. Go to Setup and in the playback devices and in the active devices Kontakt 5 is shown as is XSample Chamber Ensemble Stereo in the sound sets column. If I click the show button in the centre column it brings up the Kontakt player. If I click test nothing happens. Close the playback devices window. Try to play your example file. No sounds. Close the score and Sibelius crashes, gives the Runtime error 6025 then restarts. If I do the same again with your file but this time load the given XSample house style, same thing happens. When I first posted about this problem at least I could get your file to play with the articulations, but it did crash when I closed the file. Now I can't even get that to play. Sorry if I gave the impression that it's all XSample's fault - I don't think it is since it plays ok in the standalone Kontakt player. The problem seems to be the communication between Sibelius and Kontakt but I've not used Kontakt in Sibelius before so I have no experience to draw on. I have spent some time surfing the net to see if I could find any clues, but apart from reinstalling Sibelius (and I'm reluctant to have to do that unless it's really needed), I'm stumped! It's midnight in the UK and I've had more than enough for one day - but I'll check back tomorrow for some suggestions (other than try a different career!). Andrew Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Robin Walker - 06 Dec 10:58PM Hide picture > Close the score and Sibelius crashes, gives the Runtime error 6025 If you are closing the file with Sibelius in full-screen mode, then first reduce Sibelius to a window, and then try closing the score. > It's midnight in the UK It's not quite 11pm in the UK here. Are you still on summer time? -- Sibelius 7.5.1/7.1.3/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6.3 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1 4GB, Windows 8.1 64-bit 16GB. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 06 Dec 11:01PM Hide picture > If you are closing the file with Sibelius in full-screen mode, then first reduce Sibelius to a window, and then try closing the score. Still crashes. > > > It's midnight in the UK > > It's not quite 11pm in the UK here. Are you still on summer time? No - I'm actually in Italy but for the moment of looking at the computer time, I'd forgotten (that's how frazzled my brain is!). Andrew Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 06 Dec 11:17PM Hide picture I know I said I was going to bed, but... I wondered if the given soundset might be the problem (it's a relatively new one (Xsample Chamber Ensemble 20130513). Although I've never made a manual sound set before I thought I'd give it a go. I created just one sound of solo violin, and it works, or at least I can create a new score or load Bob's example sib file and some (but not all) of the articulations (in Bob's file) play back, and importantly, when I close the score, Sibelius doesn't crash. It feels like progress - of a sort! Andrew Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by lupus3 - 12 Jan 11:30AM Hide picture I have made similar experiences. I am toggling around now for more than one week, and there is hardly any support from Xsample. Xsample does function when I use a manual soundset. But one has to set up up each and every articulation by hand. When I tried Bob's file "Xxample.sib" an alert appeared which I attach to this post; when I click it away all articulations are played well, but not by Violin I but by violin II. If I copy the notes from V I to the other instrument V II is played by Viola, Viola by Cello, and Cello by nothing. Are there any news from you? Thank you, Wolf Attachment Screenshot 2015-01-12 10.13.27.png (14K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 12 Jan 01:42PM Hide picture I did get things to work rather better (I started to understand the manual better which showed me that some techniques I thought were there were only for some instruments some times under certain circumstances) but on the whole I rather got fed up and gave up! One reason was that try as I might I simply could not get the very good string sounds that are on the XSample site and felt pretty frustrated with that. However, a combination of your post and the fact that I'm about to start a piece where being able to sound some of the extended techniques would be very useful has given me (a bit of !) impetus to have another go. So I will and will post back. I'll have a look at the details of your post and see if I can get them to happen - although I rather think that the error message you got had more to do with Kontakt than anything else. Perhaps it's inevitable that when a programme (in this case Sibelius) then uses a third party application (Kontakt) which itself then uses a third party application, problems may arise. It's no excuse, but seems to be the reality here. Not much helped by the XSample Sibelius expert no longer working for them!(and I've just gone to theXSample website and it's changed to the personal site of composer/pianist H.J.Winkler. To be fair, XSample did say that if I had more problems to get back to them and they would pass it on to Best Service to see if they could help - but I was stubborn and hoped to sort it out one my own - and with help from this forum (huge thanks to Bob!). Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Francesco - 15 Jan 11:30AM Hide picture Please Bob, can you attach your Xsample.sib (88K) in Sib 6.2 format, so I can give a look to your housestyle? THANK YOU! -- Francesco --- Sib6.2, Grandorgue, Reaper, GPO4, JABB3, CoMB2, GCPO, NotePerformer, XCE, Kontakt 5, Photoscore Ultimate 6 Win7 Pro SP1, Intel DualCore E6700@3.2 GHz, 6GB Ram, Steinberg UR22 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Treppenwitz - 18 Jan 05:28AM Hide picture They got lazy when it came to documenting and testing this. I can't get it work to save my life. Their documentation for the whole library is a hodge-podge of misinformation and omissions with a few ultra-detailed sections thrown in to give the illusion that they thought documentation was important. On top of that, it's super crashy. I'm not going to spend any more time trying to get it to work in Sib 7. Too bad. It seemed like a promising package. I'll just use it as a standalone library, I guess. There are some great sounds in it. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 18 Jan 12:28PM Hide picture This recent exchange of messages is interesting if only to show that the problems that I've been having with XSample were/are not limited to me! I started with the point that I liked the examples on their website (now largely removed since the website was redesigned) and also from Bob's review, and since I respect Bob's experience and knowledge of Sibelius then I assumed that the problems I were having were my inability (or lack of patience!). I'd also read some much older posts that suggested that people were working with it ok. Now there are at least three of us seeming to have very similar problems. Certainly the documentation leaves a lot to be desired. The Sibelius expert no longer works for XSample and they (actually now just H.J.Winkler) no longer seem to be actively supporting at least the Sibelius side of things (perhaps the very significant reduction in price of the software should have been a warning - think of the whisky I could have bought instead!). I'd be a lot more prepared to spend more time with this if I was convinced that it was possible to actually reproduce some of the sounds that XSample and Best Service have on their websites using XSample and the Sibelius sound sets (the Best Service website shows a demo with Sibelius 6 and the others using Finale). Or does anyone here have a short music file or excerpt that they'd be happy to post here to convince me that it is possible to get it to work with some of the more unusual articulations? Andrew Andrew Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Francesco - 18 Jan 02:04PM (edited 18 Jan 02:19PM) Hide picture Hi Andrew I use Sib 6.2, so with my Kontakt 5 I can only use manual sound sets. I've done one for string quartet, and many (but not all (?)) articulations of the XCE work. See attach (the word 'nat.' must be used often!). (Edited after a try with Kontakt Player 4: With this player I can use the automatic load feature, so I can avoid using a manual sound set.) -- Francesco --- Sib6.2, Grandorgue, Reaper, GPO4, JABB3, CoMB2, GCPO, NotePerformer, XCE, Kontakt 5, Photoscore Ultimate 6 Win7 Pro SP1, Intel DualCore E6700@3.2 GHz, 6GB Ram, Steinberg UR22 Attachment test XCE.sib (86K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 19 Jan 05:22PM (edited 19 Jan 05:22PM) Hide picture Ciao Francesco, Many thanks for your example file - it works! I've now spent even more time seeing if I can get all the articulations to work (I've concentrated on the strings mostly - I'll post some wind articulations when I've time and inclination to do them!). Two lots of string examples are attached - I created them in 7.5.1 but I've saved them and attached them here as Sib 6 files because I know that that's what you're using). I've got nearly all of the articulations to work - one clear and tedious problem with some of them is that the names for the articulations shown in the manual (p.17), the names for the same articulations given in pages 23 - 34 and the names given in the playback dictionary don't always agree and it's a real pain keep going back and forward between the playback dictionary and the manual to find out the actual useable name for an articulation. When I get time, I'll correct as many of those as I can be bothered! Although all the odd noises are interesting, unless you're Sciarrino or Scelsi then they are likely to be less use than the glissandi and that's the biggest problem at the moment. Something I cannot get to work are the harmonic glissandi (manual p. 25). I've notated them exactly as shown (and I've tried many variants) and I can't get them to do anything. What's really annoying is that they did - just once, but only once and I can't get them to work again. Nor can I find a way to make artificial harmonics work. Bizarrely there's a 'switch off artificial harmonics' in the playback dictionary but no 'switch on'. If you use the harmonics plugin then it 'fakes it' and doesn't give you a real harmonic sound. Do see if you can play the two attached files (anyone else too!) and let me know what happens. Andrew Attachments XSample test 7 (sib 6).sib (128K), XSample test 8 (sib 6).sib (127K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Francesco - 20 Jan 08:24AM Hide picture Hi Andrew Now I'm abroad for some days, without Sibelius... When back home I'll play your files and for sure I'll post here. Thanks -- Francesco --- Sib6.2, Grandorgue, Reaper, GPO4, JABB3, CoMB2, GCPO, NotePerformer, XCE, Kontakt 5, Photoscore Ultimate 6 Win7 Pro SP1, Intel DualCore E6700@3.2 GHz, 6GB Ram, Steinberg UR22 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Francesco - 24 Jan 08:30PM (edited 24 Jan 08:31PM) Hide picture Ciao Andrew I could play all your examples. Trick with all harmonics in XCE is to use only the text and (if one wants) the SYMBOL and not the sign from the keypad. In the attached SIBs in italics some my notes (something doesn't work as expected, see the note for 'marcato' in XSample test 7) Ciao dall'Italia -- Francesco --- Sib6.2, Grandorgue, Reaper, GPO4, JABB3, CoMB2, GCPO, NotePerformer, XCE, Kontakt 5, Photoscore Ultimate 6 Win7 Pro SP1, Intel DualCore E6700@3.2 GHz, 6GB Ram, Steinberg UR22 Attachments XSample test 7 (sib 6).sib (91K), XSample test 8 (sib 6).sib (90K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Serendipity - 25 Jan 02:54PM Hide picture Ciao Francesco, Many thanks for your posting - and the examples. Yes, they now all work so thanks. It does seem odd that some harmonics work with the symbol from the keypad and others from the symbol menu (and nowhere in any of the XSample documentation does it tell you that). And that given all the other articulations that the library has, the only way to get artificial harmonics is to fake them with the plugin yet you can get artificial harmonic glissandi, which are, I suspect, in much less common use! Now that the harmonic glissandi work, according to page 25 of the booklet it's just an upward gliss yet the actual sound is an up and down gliss; do you know of anyway to restrict the length of the gliss? Now that I know how to get most of the string effects to work (although there are still some double bass ones I haven't tried but I now feel more confident since I now know that many of the problems are the discrepancies between the manual and the playback dictionary definitions. Next is to do the same with the woodwind, which having already had a bit of play I think that's likely to be less time consuming. What is likely to be time consuming is getting all the percussion to work. There's a possibility that I might be writing for a percussion ensemble soon so I do need to get it all to work! Thanks for your help. Andrew Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 7.5: XSample problems Posted by Francesco - 25 Jan 03:54PM Hide picture Ciao Andrew I've not tried (and now leaving home for a while...), but in the doc I read that: - there are variations depending on the played note (e.g. for the Violin: harmonics gliss. sul G var. g3-g#3 trem. var. e3-a3 art. harm. var. g3-g#3) and - the harmonics (as other articulation too) are somehow (?) 'controlled' by MIDI CC 01 I wish you best luck! -- Francesco --- Sib6.2, Grandorgue, Reaper, GPO4, JABB3, CoMB2, GCPO, NotePerformer, XCE, Kontakt 5, Photoscore Ultimate 6 Win7 Pro SP1, Intel DualCore E6700@3.2 GHz, 6GB Ram, Steinberg UR22 Back to top | All threads