Sibelius - the leading music composition and notation software

For everyone's edification: http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=427231

--
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, Bob Zawalich plugins, dolet 6.3

Finale 2010b,2011b,2012c, 2014a, TGTools pro, Patterson plugins, JW Plugins, GPO4, World Instruments
ProTools 9.5, Reaper
Notion4, Progression, Progression2

Windows XP Pro (32 bit); 7 Pro (64bit); 8 Pro (64 bit)/ 4-16GB Ram across three PC's

Pencil & Paper

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 18 Apr 09:22PM

Hide picture

>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojafApMFCAQ
>
> A great loss to Sibelius :-)
>
> (How do they know when they've played a wrong note?)

Ear training Laurence..try some:)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 18 Apr 09:23PM

Hide picture

PS GREAT choice on the Sixth quartet..there just MIGHT be hope for you after all--Thanks!

Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Michael Kilpatrick - 18 Apr 09:43PM

Hide picture

>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojafApMFCAQ
>
> A great loss to Sibelius :-)
>
> (How do they know when they've played a wrong note?)

As my grandfather always used to say...'I could write better music than that sitting on the toilet'.

Michael

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 18 Apr 10:06PM

Hide picture

I must look out my old concert programs. I suspect Irvine Arditti was leading the RAM orchestra round about 1972 (I was playing trombone).

Since then, our paths have, shall we say, diverged :-)

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 12:34AM (edited 19 Apr 12:43AM)

Hide picture

>
> As my grandfather always used to say...'I could write better music than that sitting on the toilet'.
>
> Michael

Well Michael, if he was composing music sitting on the toilet, Id guess he himself would be a pretty "crappy" composer with ANY kind of music...:)

Thanks Bob

PS At least this guy didnt say about his cat on the piano keyboard..!

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Richard Vitale - 19 Apr 04:29AM (edited 20 Apr 09:54PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Apr 09:33AM

Hide picture

Well, I've now got the perfect example when someone asks "what do you mean by 'squeaky gate' music?" :-)

There's obviously enormous technical accomplishment in playing this sort of stuff. Irvine Arditti was co-leader of one of the world's great orchestras in his mid-20s. Maybe he feeds on constant challenge and is less worried that the result may sound ugly? Perhaps he goes home and secretly plays Lawrence Welk recordings? I wish I had his problem :-)

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 10:39AM

Hide picture

OH NO..its the "squeaky gate" music remark...I just could have guessed who'd be the one saying it..LOL:)

Admittedly, in all honesty, new music-as with all kinds of music, and anything "new"--will appeal to some and not to others. And this is fine, and to be expected.

And that same enormous technical accomplishment Laurence recognized in the performance of this kind of music is also echoed in the composition of it--most people ignorant of it think its really easy to do..and nothing could be further from the truth.

"Oh I could do that with my eyes closed" usually is a very easy tell of those who think this way..

Irvine Arditti, and the Arditti quartet are at the top performing this new music and have been "instrumental"in bringing it to the peoples attention, for many years and for its acceptance.

THANK YOU Mr. Arditti and the quartet!

Thanks Bob

PS And Laurence? Go find yourself a ii7 V7 I progression, and knock yourself out!:)

(sorry couldn't resist;)

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Apr 11:15AM

Hide picture

Well, it IS classic 'squeaky gate'! So often when looking for such one finds 'demented percussionist' instead.

I am absolutely delighted such stuff is difficult to compose. Else we'd be knee-deep in it.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 11:53AM (edited 19 Apr 12:12PM)

Hide picture

OMG Laurence..youre having one of those days, eh?

I saw your anti Mac comments elsewhere, and another post where you made fun of someone--another poster concerning "dangling the "caret"..all the old stuff..plus Im sure a comment about "the ribbon" is in there somewhwere, or forthcoming..
maybe take it easy!!

Ok? Thanks!

There are always those so completely ignorant of this kind of music, and incapable of anything with it--either composing, performing or appreciating it--

and also SO threatened by it, as its new, and they are just so completely clueless about it, and fear theyd lose their "knowledgeable" status, that they might have with the old stuff.

Go figure that in this case it would be YOU!:):)

(and if it REALLY sounds like a squeaky gate to you, I'd ask that Doc of yours to check your hearing also!:)

And for those who simply dont like it, thats fine too..but inane comments like those here reveal MUCH more about the commenter, than the music involved.

Either way,Laurence, enjoy that ii7-V7-I progression but start in C and stay there--modulating out of it might--HORRORS! --approach creating something NEW, and they youd have to address these dumb comments at yourself!;)

Thanks Bob

PS For all others please know theres TONS of good music using the old progressions--and tons of really BAD stuff, too.. and Im sure there'll be tons more--much of which I enjoy..

but theres room for new music too, WITHOUT all the (NOT) cute remarks of cats on pianos, and Laurences totally unoriginal squeaky gate..not to mention the guy whose grandfather composes on the toilet!

Again these comments speak VOLUMES more about those making them, than the music itself..;)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Philip Sparke - 19 Apr 11:59AM

Hide picture

I think it's brilliant. Humour in music is so hard to achieve.
Bravo Mr F.

--
Philip Sparke - Anglo Music Press
Sib 7.0.2 Windows 7, 3.04GHz i7-2600K 16GB RAM 256GB SSD
www.philipsparke.com

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Apr 12:19PM

Hide picture

Never feed chocolate to dogs.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 12:34PM

Hide picture

>
Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Apr 12:19PM

Never feed chocolate to dogs.
>

Re: Sib. 7.5: crashing during playback
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Apr 11:21AM

I'm feeling skittish today. Channelling the Easter Bunny. Watch out! Squeak squeak!
>

Yep, one of those days..:)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Richard Vitale - 19 Apr 05:22PM (edited 20 Apr 09:55PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Apr 06:58PM

Hide picture

Not one I'd heard before. But yes, definitely!

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 07:36PM (edited 20 Apr 09:26PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Robert Enns - 19 Apr 07:44PM

Hide picture

Is that supposed to encourage folks to listen with an open mind?
Just wondering.

--
Rob
Win 7 64 bit, 3.1 GHz, 8 Gigs RAM 2014
Sibelius 7.1.3, Sibelius Sounds 7.1.2, Photoscore Ult., GPO4

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 07:48PM

Hide picture

Which part..the cat/dogs on keyboards, grandpas on toilets, squeaky gates, or animals in a fire?

No those are supposed to have you HATE it even before listening..and keep you away from it.

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 07:57PM

Hide picture

At one time ALL music was the "new music"..and being so was subjected to this same kind of stuff.

Its fine to not like it..and not listen..but waiting for opportunities to endlessly repeat these same kind of unworthwile comments, really isnt cool..

Theres room enough for ALL kinds of music on this planet..:)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Robert Enns - 19 Apr 08:21PM

Hide picture

I was referring to your comments, not the others.

--
Rob
Win 7 64 bit, 3.1 GHz, 8 Gigs RAM 2014
Sibelius 7.1.3, Sibelius Sounds 7.1.2, Photoscore Ult., GPO4

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 08:29PM (edited 19 Apr 08:30PM)

Hide picture

Ok, well that wasnt clear--which comments specifically?

Point them out and Ill be more than glad to address them.
Thanks Bob

PS My main point here--which has been repeated-- is it ok NOT to like this kind of music, or anything else--but the comments are unnecessary, and really uncool.. and are being used in many instances to try to persuade others into ALSO not liking it, or even trying listening to it, and have them making their own comments about it..same like it was with the ribbon, and other stuff here.

I note I didnt see ONE intelligent comment about WHY someone didnt like it..just cats, toilets, animals etc..

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Robert Enns - 19 Apr 08:44PM

Hide picture

I just don't see that telling someone they could do with ear training or saying about someone else that "You should use some of that originality in the music I hear of yours!"
rises much above the comments of others you think are juvenile.
It's snippy and isn't going to encourage anyone to rethink their attitude.
That's what I meant when I said your comments weren't likely to encourage an open mind.

--
Rob
Win 7 64 bit, 3.1 GHz, 8 Gigs RAM 2014
Sibelius 7.1.3, Sibelius Sounds 7.1.2, Photoscore Ult., GPO4

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 09:02PM

Hide picture

> I just don't see that telling someone they could do with ear training or saying about someone else that "You should use some of that originality in the music I hear of yours!"
> rises much above the comments of others you think are juvenile.
> It's snippy and isn't going to encourage anyone to rethink their attitude.
> That's what I meant when I said your comments weren't likely to encourage an open mind.
>
> --
> Rob
> Win 7 64 bit, 3.1 GHz, 8 Gigs RAM 2014
> Sibelius 7.1.3, Sibelius Sounds 7.1.2, Photoscore Ult., GPO4

First off Robert--you werent "just wondering" as you put it--seems you had an agenda, and this is it.

Now I understand what you meant--thanks.

All my comments were made in response to others remarks--all in a joking fashion, as these are people I know them all from other forums, or Save Sibelius--but not the guy with the toilet!

And all, however were made to try and end these sort of dumb comments, and maybe even hear ONE good reason why someone didnt like it.

I STILL havent heard one...

But youre free to make of them what you want--however, in this case, sorry to say it seems you want to cause trouble and call them "snippy", etc--if thats your take on it so be it, but Id advise reading the thread again.

Youre the only one who has responded like this, so Ill let that speak for itself.

And youre free to listen to the music or not, and like it or not--just better to hold back ANY unnecessary comments, like those Ive written about, and like calling people snippy, etc--as this leads to real problems here, which we all can do without.

And Ill leave it at that.

Thanks hope that does it for you-enjoy the holiday.

Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Michael Kilpatrick - 20 Apr 10:26AM

Hide picture

>
> I note I didnt see ONE intelligent comment about WHY someone didnt like it..just cats, toilets, animals etc..
>
> Thanks Bob

Ok.

1) it says nothing to me.

2) I can't hum the tune after I've listened to it.

There you are, Bob. You might think these two comments are 'unintelligent' or 'ignorant' but I could easily sit down and dress them up in some more technical artistic language if I had time to think and elucidate. Yet, underneath, the basic principle remains: it's just a load of 'technical noise' that isn't 'music' to most people's ears.

People were horrified by 'The Rite of Spring' and other such things when they first appeared. I bet there is a load of cacophonous drivel from that period which has been thankfully forgotten and overlooked but the better examples have survived and are loved by many. Why? Because Rite of Spring is still *musical*. It speaks to me. Its power can move me. I can even hum the opening theme in the upper register of the bassoon even if I could not construct the 'harmonies' and counterpoint Stravinsky adds. The rule book was, to a large extent, thrown away and rewritten. However, the one thing that Stravinsky did not do was 'throw the baby out with the bath water'. 100 years ago, Stravinsky caused near riots but became accepted later. Ferneyhough, though, has just created a loaf of noise because he forgotten to keep the baby (the 'music') when he threw the bathwater out.

Rather like architecture, as Mike L pointed out earlier. It's 'well constructed' (ooh, what damning praise!) but it's shit because it lacks any *art*.

Michael

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Apr 11:32AM (edited 20 Apr 11:42AM)

Hide picture

> People were horrified by 'The Rite of Spring' and other such things when they first appeared. I bet there is a load of cacophonous drivel from that period which has been thankfully forgotten and overlooked but the better examples have survived and are loved by many. Why? Because Rite of Spring is still *musical*. It speaks to me. Its power can move me. I can even hum the opening theme in the upper register of the bassoon even if I could not construct the 'harmonies' and counterpoint Stravinsky adds. The rule book was, to a large extent, thrown away and rewritten. However, the one thing that Stravinsky did not do was 'throw the baby out with the bath water'. 100 years ago, Stravinsky caused near riots but became accepted later. Ferneyhough, though, has just created a loaf of noise because he forgotten to keep the baby (the 'music') when he threw the bathwater out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Very well put.

I wonder if Ferneyhough will prove to have "mattered" in the long run? Aspects of many post-tonal techniques have proved useful in the "other" branch of modern music, the branch that people actually listen to, enjoy and (rather importantly) are prepared to pay for.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 12:30PM

Hide picture

>
> >
> > I note I didnt see ONE intelligent comment about WHY someone didnt like it..just cats, toilets, animals etc..
> >
> > Thanks Bob
>
> Ok.
>
> 1) it says nothing to me.

What does a piece you like say to you--IOW what kind of "message" were you hoping to get?

>
> 2) I can't hum the tune after I've listened to it.

Funny I can..well at times I can:)

>
> There you are, Bob. You might think these two comments are 'unintelligent' or 'ignorant' but I could easily sit down and dress them up in some more technical artistic language if I had time to think and elucidate. Yet, underneath, the basic principle remains: it's just a load of 'technical noise' that isn't 'music' to most people's ears.
>

I think that this is the usual problem of NOT listening to the music or possibly enjoying it for what it is, but of comparing it to something it isnt and doesnt want to be--ie older music. Starting with serialism, this music was deliberately designed NOT to sound like the old stuff--so you wont find it there.

Its like eating sushi and complaining that it doesnt taste like steak, instead of possibly enjoying the sushi for what it is, and realizing it wasnt SUPPOSED to taste like steak in the first place:)

The "message" your not getting in new music isnt "telegraphed" like it is in the older music--happy/major sad/minor kind of stuff. Again its very expressive in its own way--erotic, violent, exciting, touching etc--and multi-levelled emotions-but NOT in the same old ways older music does it. Take for example the phrase "I love you"--there are many ways to say it, many even WITHOUT the actual words, that STILL count and express it.

But some just HAVE to hear the words:)

As for not not being able to hum it, again this also fits in with the above--and many you really actually CAN hum sections, once you actually LISTEN to it--but this ability is by no means, and shouldnt be the ultimate judging point--the sine qua non- for any piece of music.

This all reminds me of the story of the person who went to see some Modern Art and hated it--and when asked why said because they didnt see any people or lakes or mountains...and it was because the artist HADNT painted any people, lakes or mountains!

The rest of your post reverts back to some insulting kind of stuff, which isnt worthy of comment.

And again, its OK NOT to like this music, once its been given a fair chance--but what Ive seen is a whole bunch of hateful prejudice spoken and NOT an awful lot of experience with it--ie listening to and judging the music itself.

Thanks for your reply.

Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Michael Kilpatrick - 20 Apr 03:40PM

Hide picture

>
> This all reminds me of the story of the person who went to see some Modern Art and hated it--and when asked why said because they didnt see any people or lakes or mountains...and it was because the artist HADNT painted any people, lakes or mountains!

Oops, this has turned into a long post...

Ah, you've brought modern art into it. Well, on that subject I'll show you how I believe modern art parallels that music...

It has been said (I forget by whom) that art is only art if you can't easily describe it in just one sentence. That is a hypothesis I am drawn to even though art is definitely not just about 'people, mountains and lakes'.

You see, a 'sheep in a tank of formaldehyde' is, I'm afraid, nothing more than that. It can be described as such in those seven words and no more. If you gold-plate the tank it's still exactly the same.
The 'installation' has no other intrinsic properties that make it more than what it is, yet this is not true of pure art. One simply can't describe the brush-strokes of a master painter or sculptor. You can't write words which adequately portray how an impressionistic painting gives an impression of something in a certain manner.

So, the pickled sheep is not art. It's just a pickled sheep and it no more or no less 'makes me think about something' than does staring at the lamppost outside the window here.

Back to Ferneyhough. I'm afraid that having listened again to few minutes of the YouTube clip of the string quartet, it is clearly the equivalent of the pickled sheep. It has no intrinsic 'musicality' and it neither says anything to me nor moves me. Furthermore its lack of any form (whether subtle or blindingly obvious) simply suggests that there is no intrinsic quality portrayed by the particular order of the notes, plucks, strums, scrapes and dissonances. The same cannot be said of a beautifully crafted melodic line - the order of the notes *does* matter. Change them arbitrarily and you destroy the flow, the climaxes, the mood and the colour. Also, it's conceivable that you might by chance improve upon the original melody were it not so good in the first place.,

So, to me, the string quartet is just 'a selection of arco or pizzicato notes, strums, scrapes, dissonances performed on a cello, viola and two violins'.

There you go. I've just described it in one simple sentence, owing to its inability to demonstrate to me in any way that the order of the sounds matters or makes a difference to the experience.. Therefore it is not art and not music. If you created another version of it and swapped all the parts and notes round I might barely notice - because its arbitrary nature has robbed it of musicality.

So, in conclusion, one simple observation - and one made with no 'hateful prejudice' as you put it: 'Not everything presented in an art gallery is actually Art and not everything performed on musical instruments is actually Music'.

Michael

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Apr 04:47PM

Hide picture

> It has been said (I forget by whom) that art is only art if you can't easily describe it in just one sentence. That is a hypothesis I am drawn to even though art is definitely not just about 'people, mountains and lakes'.
>
> You see, a 'sheep in a tank of formaldehyde' is, I'm afraid, nothing more than that. It can be described as such in those seven words and no more. If you gold-plate the tank it's still exactly the same.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I HAD wondered if Ferneyhough's work was intended as conceptual art, though it raises the same question as Damien Hirst's sheep (and the movie versions of many books) - "OK, we've got the concept, now why spoil it by actually MAKING the blasted thing?"

Back at college we studied some of John Cage's graphic scores. Beautiful to look at. Moderately interesting as a concept. But the performance was always something of an anti-climax.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 06:41PM

Hide picture

Hi Michael--

Thank you for replying.

>
> It has been said (I forget by whom) that art is only art if you can't easily describe it in just one sentence. That is a hypothesis I am drawn to even though art is definitely not just about 'people, mountains and lakes'.
>

Sorry I see no validity to that hypothesis though apparently you do. And since your post is based on this 'idea' it really makes no sense to me.

You make/find/accept a rule/hypothesis, and then judge it valid, and elevate it to the yardstick to measure art or music--for EVERYONE.

Im afraid its a lot more than that. And I really can see you trying to use this on even more topics.

And if one isnt able to even stammer out a few descriptive words about ANYTHING--as you do later in this post, concerning the Ferneyhough, and thus dismiss it as music--then I think that someone simply has problems expressing themselves. and not that something isn't art or music.

IOW the problem is/just might be with that persons expressive abilities, and not the worth of the work(s) in question.

ANYTHING can be described, even just to say it was 'indescribable', and do as you did..just name the parts, and reduce it to that--scrapes noises pizz etc.

> You see, a 'sheep in a tank of formaldehyde' is, I'm afraid, nothing more than that. It can be described as such in those seven words and no more. If you gold-plate the tank it's still exactly the same.
> The 'installation' has no other intrinsic properties that make it more than what it is, yet this is not true of pure art. One simply can't describe the brush-strokes of a master painter or sculptor.

Of course one simply can..because you cant doesnt mean everyone cant, Michael, and to attribute such an idea to everyone is really wrong.

And one can speak about those brush strokes in the same manner you reduced the Ferneyhough--for example, cross-hatch technique, dry brush technique, liner brush, dabbing technique, etc etc. whatever it is.

So by doing this whatever YOU felt was art now simply isnt, as it COULD be described..but not by you.

Does it now lose its status as art?

Sorry Im not buying it.
>
> So, in conclusion, one simple observation - and one made with no 'hateful prejudice' as you put it: 'Not everything presented in an art gallery is actually Art and not everything performed on musical instruments is actually Music'.

Using your " art is only art if you can't easily describe it in just one sentence" maxim and basing all of this on it, there wont be a single piece of Art or Music left depending on how well one can express themselves.

Again, sorry Im not buying it.

Thanks for replying

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Michael Kilpatrick - 20 Apr 10:12PM

Hide picture

>
> ANYTHING can be described, even just to say it was 'indescribable',

Well, that really is banal, to suggest that everything can be described simply because the expression 'indescribable' somehow counts as a description. Bloody hell!

> > One simply can't describe the brush-strokes of a master painter or sculptor.
>
> Of course one simply can..because you cant doesnt mean everyone cant, Michael, and to attribute such an idea to everyone is really wrong.
>
> And one can speak about those brush strokes in the same manner you reduced the Ferneyhough--for example, cross-hatch technique, dry brush technique, liner brush, dabbing technique, etc etc. whatever it is.

That isn't a full description of a work of art. That is just a simple description of basis of the painting technique employed, which is not at all the same thing. In order to DESCRIBE an entire painting you would have to describe every single stroke, otherwise your description would not differentiate between any two paintings of (say) various mountains. Yet with the pickled sheep, which is just 'conceptual' art, there is no subtlety of technique because it is inherently obvious that the concept is the same whether the tank is made of steel and glass or bronze and perspex. You haven't grasped that important point.

> Using your " art is only art if you can't easily describe it in just one sentence" maxim and basing all of this on it, there wont be a single piece of Art or Music left depending on how well one can express themselves.

That simply isn't true because you haven't remotely grasped what is required to 'describe' *fully* any individual work of art. It almost seems that you believe I'm saying that the Mona Lisa can be 'described' by saying 'an oil painting of a pasty girl with no eyebrows with an enigmatic yet neutral expression'. Which is nonsense. That is a 'cursory overview'. When you've actually thought about what it means to *fully describe* the Mona Lisa then perhaps you might understand what this hypothesis is really saying. I suggest you think about it rather than making thinly veiled personal attacks on my 'ability to express' which, quite frankly, are not welcome, thank you very much.

Michael

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 10:44PM (edited 20 Apr 10:54PM)

Hide picture

>
> >
> > ANYTHING can be described, even just to say it was 'indescribable',
>
> Well, that really is banal, to suggest that everything can be described simply because the expression 'indescribable' somehow counts as a description. Bloody hell!"

Banal??

Its your concept Michael..just following it.

And please calm down..thanks!

>
> > > One simply can't describe the brush-strokes of a master painter or sculptor.
> >
> > Of course one simply can..because you cant doesnt mean everyone cant, Michael, and to attribute such an idea to everyone is really wrong.
> >
> > And one can speak about those brush strokes in the same manner you reduced the Ferneyhough--for example, cross-hatch technique, dry brush technique, liner brush, dabbing technique, etc etc. whatever it is.
>
> That isn't a full description of a work of art. That is just a simple description of basis of the painting technique employed, which is not at all the same thing. In order to DESCRIBE an entire painting you would have to describe every single stroke, otherwise your description would not differentiate between any two paintings of (say) various mountains. Yet with the pickled sheep, which is just 'conceptual' art, there is no subtlety of technique because it is inherently obvious that the concept is the same whether the tank is made of steel and glass or bronze and perspex. You haven't grasped that important point."

No, I did--its EXACTLY what you reduced the Ferneyhough to..
I tried to show the fallacy of such an approach, and feel/hoped I succeeded.

>
>
> > Using your " art is only art if you can't easily describe it in just one sentence" maxim and basing all of this on it, there wont be a single piece of Art or Music left depending on how well one can express themselves.
>
> That simply isn't true because you haven't remotely grasped what is required to 'describe' *fully* any individual work of art. It almost seems that you believe I'm saying that the Mona Lisa can be 'described' by saying 'an oil painting of a pasty girl with no eyebrows with an enigmatic yet neutral expression'. Which is nonsense. That is a 'cursory overview'. When you've actually thought about what it means to *fully describe* the Mona Lisa then perhaps you might understand what this hypothesis is really saying. I suggest you think about it rather than making thinly veiled personal attacks on my 'ability to express' which, quite frankly, are not welcome, thank you very much."

OMG Michael..calm down, and easy on the insults..ok??!!..

There was no personal attacks even when you wrote about your grandpa on the bowl, which this is possible a "get even" for..it was an unfortunate and unnecessary comment, and was treated as a joke, but was in EXTREMELY poor taste..

It seems youre trying to start something here by saying there were personal attacks, which I really dont appreciate,
and I DONT see a SINGLE one quoted here to be addressed..?

I took your concept--which I honestly found--sorry to say questionable at least and totally lacking in substance at best(but not in heavens--"pickled sheep") and simply applied it.

If you take that as a personal attacks which I dont see how you could do that, well thats something you have to deal with, and work out yourself. There were no attacks, nonestated, hidden, veiled, insinuated or otherwise--

I simply responded to your hypothesis.

And I could say the same about your post here, Michael.

I kindly suggest after you calm down to re read what I wrote, ESPECIALLY the part about people expressing themselves. It might be clearer at that time.

If not at least I tried.

Thanks Bob

PS and Im sorry but I STILL cant accept your idea "that art is only art if you can't easily describe it in just one sentence"..

>
> Michael

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Apr 11:11PM

Hide picture

> PS and Im sorry but I STILL cant accept your idea "that art is only art if you can't easily describe it in just one sentence"..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"...if you can't COMPLETELY describe..." would be better.

It's not watertight, of course. But isn't "It's a sheep in a vat of formaldehyde" all we need to know about Damien Hirst's con(ceptual) trick? To many (most?) people here "It's four highly skilled men working very hard at producing sound of no value" is a complete description of the Ferneyhough quartet.

Wouldn't it be WONDERFUL if after his death we found an envelope containing "Fooled you all for 50 years!" :-)

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Apr 08:37PM

Hide picture

If you see Ferneyhough, run past him the idea of calling his next work "Fire in a pet store". Maybe a small commission fee could even be arranged...

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 08:40PM

Hide picture

Bless you Laurence and THANK YOU..I can always count on you to prove my point..:)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Apr 08:51PM

Hide picture

No need. You were doing pretty well on your own :-)

Perhaps we should keep this going until at least one other person comes along who admits to liking Ferneyhough.

If nothing else, I've discovered "Fire in a pet store". Thanks for the Easter Egg, Richie.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Mark K Sealey - 19 Apr 09:05PM

Hide picture

Bob,

We have an expression in English (not sure if it's also American, or if it even translates): "There's none so blind as them as cannot see".

To criticize modern music in the way that comes up here - almost every time - tells me two things:

1 - those trotting out the gate/cat/wrong-note clichés perhaps can't admit it to themselves, but unconsciously know they have to resort to what they think is ridicule because they know really, that

2 - a whole generation of music (serialism, avant-garde and pan-tonal) after, say 1945 can't be worthy of these insults merely because it is, itself, new.

I'd like to see the detractors actually complete music which even remotely as good as the toilets/cats/animals brigade derides.

--
Mark Sealey
mid-2011 2.7 GHz, 27 inch iMac; 16 GB RAM; 10.9.2; 7.1.3

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 09:10PM

Hide picture

> Bob,
>
> We have an expression in English (not sure if it's also American, or if it even translates): "There's none so blind as them as cannot see".
>
> To criticize modern music in the way that comes up here - almost every time - tells me two things:
>
> 1 - those trotting out the gate/cat/wrong-note clichés perhaps can't admit it to themselves, but unconsciously know they have to resort to what they think is ridicule because they know really, that
>
> 2 - a whole generation of music (serialism, avant-garde and pan-tonal) after, say 1945 can't be worthy of these insults merely because it is, itself, new.
>
> I'd like to see the detractors actually complete music which even remotely as good as the toilets/cats/animals brigade derides.
>
> --
> Mark Sealey
> mid-2011 2.7 GHz, 27 inch iMac; 16 GB RAM; 10.9.2; 7.1.3

VERY WELL SAID, Mark--thank you!

And I couldnt agree more-as I say we all have our likes and dislikes..but these cliches are really uncalled for.

I had hoped with intelligent people they might never come up, or if need be stop, but seems theres no hope..

but all we can do is try!

Thanks again:)

Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Apr 09:20PM

Hide picture

> 2 - a whole generation of music (serialism, avant-garde and pan-tonal) after, say 1945 can't be worthy of these insults merely because it is, itself, new.

And no-one suggested it was.

The Ferneyhough isn't bad merely because it's new. But it doesn't rate automatic acceptance merely because it's new either. It has to sell on its own merit.

Maybe there are elements of Ferneyhough's work that will infulence future composers. Maybe he will only be remembered for being controversial. Probably, as a student of music, I should be acquainted with him. But he's not going on my iPod.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Apr 09:23PM (edited 19 Apr 09:25PM)

Hide picture

> We have an expression in English (not sure if it's also American, or if it even translates): "There's none so blind as them as cannot see".

""There's none so blind as them as WON'T see" makes more sense.

But I'm afraid you're fighting a straw man here, Mark.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 10:01PM (edited 19 Apr 10:14PM)

Hide picture

> "2 - a whole generation of music (serialism, avant-garde and pan-tonal) after, say 1945 can't be worthy of these insults merely because it is, itself, new.
---

And no-one suggested it was."
---

Each and EVERY inane comment suggested it was Laurence

>"The Ferneyhough isn't bad merely because it's new. But it doesn't rate automatic acceptance merely because it's new either. It has to sell on its own merit."
---

Youre preaching to the choir Laurence, thats a moot point--and no one said it rates automatic acceptance.

>"Maybe there are elements of Ferneyhough's work that will influence future composers.

--

They ALREADY have..hes one of, if not arguably the MOST influential composer in recent times, in Contemporary Classical music

>"Probably, as a student of music, I should be acquainted with him.

EXCELLENT Point!! It just might end these kinds of comments!!:)

>"But he's not going on my iPod.

Im sure old Brians heart is broken hearing that..:)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Apr 11:36AM

Hide picture

> I'd like to see the detractors actually complete music which even remotely as good as the toilets/cats/animals brigade derides.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If you have to be able to do it before you're entitled to criticise, doesn't it follow that you have to be able to do it to be entitled to proselytize?

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 12:41PM

Hide picture

> > I'd like to see the detractors actually complete music which even remotely as good as the toilets/cats/animals brigade derides.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> If you have to be able to do it before you're entitled to criticise, doesn't it follow that you have to be able to do it to be entitled to proselytize?
>

That wasnt what was said, Laurence--youre twisting the words, for your own convenience.

Id suggest rereading the post.

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 09:06PM

Hide picture

Thanks Laurence--I appreciate it.

And I think there was one other who likes Ferneyhough but it was hard to tell--but either way,Im NOT really looking for that, just an end to these kind of comments.

They really serve NO purpose.

Thanks Bob

PS BTW hows the channeling going with the Easter bunny???
Still feeling skittish?;)

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 09:13PM

Hide picture

PS make that TWO, since Mark Sealeys reply!

Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 19 Apr 09:29PM

Hide picture

Well, this has all been enlightening to read, I thought the original post by Bob M. was one for self discovery in relation to notation and contemporary music vis-a-vis Sibelius/Finale (or other notation software)? One can like or dislike the Professors music as they wish.
The link below will let you view some representative scores.
http://www.edition-peters.com/composer/Ferneyhough-Brian

--
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, Bob Zawalich plugins, dolet 6.3

Finale 2010b,2011b,2012c, 2014a, TGTools pro, Patterson plugins, JW Plugins, GPO4, World Instruments
ProTools 9.5, Reaper
Notion4, Progression, Progression2

Windows XP Pro (32 bit); 7 Pro (64bit); 8 Pro (64 bit)/ 4-16GB Ram across three PC's

Pencil & Paper

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 09:36PM

Hide picture

Hi Ralph--

It was for that purpose..but mention new music, Ferneyhough etc, and out come these "chestnuts"..the usual cat/piano, gate, etc.

>One can like or dislike the Professors music as they wish.

EXACTLY..but the comments are not only inane, (and unoriginal!) but unnecessary.

Thanks for the score examples!

Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Apr 09:34PM

Hide picture

> And I think there was one other who likes Ferneyhough but it was hard to tell--but either way,Im NOT really looking for that, just an end to these kind of comments.

And that is something you will never achieve, and MUST never achieve! Ferneyhough has a right to produce his cacophony. When it is brought to our attention, we have a right to mock. When you over-react, we have the right to mock you.

Living in a country with free speech can be a right bummer sometimes, can't it? :-)

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 09:49PM

Hide picture

LOL--I dont feel mocked at all Laurence--YOU'RE the one who says they're "squeak squeaking and channeling the Easter bunny"..and "feeling skittish today"..

talk about over-reacting!!

need I say more?

And the "right to mock" as you put it ONLY makes you look worse than the same old comments youre using..however since you feel it will NEVER stop, it will only keep making yourself look bad saying them over and over.

As I said it speaks more about the commenter than the comments

Its sad to say, I know you enjoy certain practices--its come up on the forums before, but instead of "mocking" as you put it try putting a reasoned conversation forth about WHY you dont like it..name calling and making fun of people STILL arent cool, Laurence..you should know that by now!;)

And nope..free speech is GREAT..but things get tempered on a forum, and thats a GOOD thing!

Hopefully that should do it, and your NOT so skittish, and busy channelling for the rest of the day.

Njoy your holiday.

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Mark K Sealey - 19 Apr 10:28PM

Hide picture

Trouble is, Laurence, that when you write something like:

> Ferneyhough has a right to produce his cacophony.

you implicitly (aim to?) prevent discussion: who is going to put up their hand and aver, "I love cacophony" because by definition cacophony is 'unpleasant'.

If you said, as an opinion, something like: "Ferneyhough's music goes over my head", or "is not to my taste", there'd be room for maneuver.

Or even, "I don't understand the musical praxes which appeal to non-tonal or non diatonic construction"…

At a pinch, "I can't follow anything not in a key".

See - it gets easier :-)

(I still think that to listen without bias ("It reminds me of squeaking" etc) would be to hear new, beautiful and profound music. After all, why would an established, gifted and accomplished composer want to write music that would remind even the uninitiated of cats, toilets etc? Surely as such a composer sits down to write, in their mind is something lasting, stimulating and - as a matter of fact - wholly true to the inestimably profound (musical) tradition to which other composers of his generation belong.)

--
Mark Sealey
mid-2011 2.7 GHz, 27 inch iMac; 16 GB RAM; 10.9.2; 7.1.3

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 10:47PM

Hide picture

> Trouble is, Laurence, that when you write something like:
>
> > Ferneyhough has a right to produce his cacophony.
>
> you implicitly (aim to?) prevent discussion: who is going to put up their hand and aver, "I love cacophony" because by definition cacophony is 'unpleasant'.
>
> If you said, as an opinion, something like: "Ferneyhough's music goes over my head", or "is not to my taste", there'd be room for maneuver.
>
> Or even, "I don't understand the musical praxes which appeal to non-tonal or non diatonic construction"…
>
> At a pinch, "I can't follow anything not in a key".
>
> See - it gets easier :-)
>
> (I still think that to listen without bias ("It reminds me of squeaking" etc) would be to hear new, beautiful and profound music. After all, why would an established, gifted and accomplished composer want to write music that would remind even the uninitiated of cats, toilets etc? Surely as such a composer sits down to write, in their mind is something lasting, stimulating and - as a matter of fact - wholly true to the inestimably profound (musical) tradition to which other composers of his generation belong.)
>
> --
> Mark Sealey
> mid-2011 2.7 GHz, 27 inch iMac; 16 GB RAM; 10.9.2; 7.1.3

What a GREAT post Mark.I couldnt have said this better myself.

By leaving out the inane comments, and instead discussing concrete reasons as to why this kind of music doesnt appeal to someone, both that person and people trying to compose music like this might both benefit and learn how to possible reach each other musically, and bridge some of the gap that now exists.

Or we can continue talk about cats, gates, animals in a fire,toilets, etc etc and really accomplish NOTHING..

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Mark K Sealey - 19 Apr 11:08PM

Hide picture

Bob,

Thanks!

For someone used to (perhaps formulaic) chord progressions, tonality of the Common Practice, and who eschews Extended Techniques, although some contemporary music breaks vital new ground it may seem challenging at first?

Especially if you don't bother to listen more closely.

Imagine what those used to Haydn made of the Eroica or Symphonie Fantastique!

Here's the C21st equivalent.

I'd not be without it for the world ;-)

> By leaving out the inane comments, and instead discussing concrete reasons as
> to why this kind of music doesnt appeal to someone, both that person and
> people trying to compose music like this might both benefit and learn how to
> possible reach each other musically, and bridge some of the gap that now
> exists.

--
Mark Sealey
mid-2011 2.7 GHz, 27 inch iMac; 16 GB RAM; 10.9.2; 7.1.3

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 11:48PM

Hide picture

> Bob,
>
> Thanks!
>
> For someone used to (perhaps formulaic) chord progressions, tonality of the Common Practice, and who eschews Extended Techniques, although some contemporary music breaks vital new ground it may seem challenging at first?
>
> Especially if you don't bother to listen more closely.
>
> Imagine what those used to Haydn made of the Eroica or Symphonie Fantastique!
>
> Here's the C21st equivalent.
>
> I'd not be without it for the world ;-)
>
> > By leaving out the inane comments, and instead discussing concrete reasons as
> > to why this kind of music doesnt appeal to someone, both that person and
> > people trying to compose music like this might both benefit and learn how to
> > possible reach each other musically, and bridge some of the gap that now
> > exists.
>
> --
> Mark Sealey
> mid-2011 2.7 GHz, 27 inch iMac; 16 GB RAM; 10.9.2; 7.1.3

I agree--and looking at the Lexicon of Musical Invective--

some samples here http://rateyourmusic.com/list/heraclite/favorite_quotes_from_lexicon_of_musical_invective/

gives a good idea of whats been said before, and peoples reactions to new music..its VERY eye opening!

And you're right--being couched and comfortable in older music, makes listening to this music closely. and for more than a few minutes an even more important first step to deciding if it appeals to you or not--
for myself I find it very expressive and enjoyable--but expressive of emotions in a way beyond the basic happy/sad thing of major/minor.

It reaches a part of me noting else can..:)

Thanks Mark.

Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Richard Vitale - 19 Apr 09:45PM (edited 20 Apr 09:57PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 09:55PM (edited 20 Apr 09:29PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 19 Apr 09:58PM

Hide picture

>And I do admire originality, my best friend works for Phillip Glass and I often play avant garde, but I find mainstream music more to my liking and yes, I do mimic the Catskill comedians I have worked with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Working with comedians and other acts is possibly my favourite part of being a musician. "Pure" music can sometimes get so up its own a** :-)

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Richard Vitale - 19 Apr 10:11PM (edited 20 Apr 09:58PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 10:21PM (edited 20 Apr 09:30PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Rob Tuley - 19 Apr 10:44PM

Hide picture

> and I couldnt agree more about Sibelius being the BEST tool to get the job done!

Have you ever actually tried using Sibelius to write a Ferneyhough score?

Finale is quite a lot better, but still a long way from ideal.

But who cares either way about Avid or MakeMusic, when the most appropriate software I know of to do the job is free.

--
Rob

Sib 4.1, Windows 7.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 10:52PM

Hide picture

Yes I have--sound wise, but not nearly as notationally complex--

I used to wildly improvise in Digital Performer, and then try and notate it in Sib..but found out doing it ALL in Sib was much easier.

>Have you ever actually tried using Sibelius to write a Ferneyhough score?

Finale is quite a lot better, but still a long way from ideal.>

Which probably accounts for Ferneyhough using Finale in the first place:)

Thanks Bob
--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 19 Apr 10:55PM

Hide picture

PS I actually gave up on Finale as there were (still are?) horrible problems with its midi import..MM wouldnt fix them but did offer me my money back.

So I tried Sibelius and made the RIGHT choice!

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Noel Fidge - 20 Apr 01:57AM

Hide picture

Of course people have different tastes in art and strong feelings seem to come with it. I can only pass on my observations during a long life in music as a pianist and composer.
"Do they know when they play a wrong note" Not really. Some first year (music) students were given an opportunity to see/hear an orchestra rehearse in Sydney last year (some sitting in with wind or cellos, bass, percussion and so on)and the programme included a new piece by an Australian composer. A cellist and a bassist confided (and joked)with the students that notes didn't matter and deliberately played "wrong" notes and rhythms to see if the conductor or composer (present at the rehearsal) noticed. They didn't. Nor at 2nd or 3rd run through's.
I noted that the composer had labelled one "Stanza" of his work "Noise"; I've also observed that Noise is now a 'classification' in the avant-garde, with music critics recognising it and comparing different 'noises' in their columns.
Does it matter? Depends on 'taste' I suppose. It certainly has limited appeal because the attendances at these concerts is very very low and I've not seen it grow over 20 years or more.
In my opinion it's a tendentious argument to suggest that audiences reacted similarly when they heard- say Beethoven after Haydn. Not so. They may have been critical or affronted- of the style but not stretched suddenly into sounds so foreign that they couldn't fathom it. But that is the case with much New music.
And I don't see why not. The same challenges come with the visual arts-and surprise, surprise, meets with similar strong opinions. See above!!

--
Noel

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Porter - 20 Apr 03:46AM

Hide picture

I hope everybody gets a good nights rest.
Talk about a discussion full of sound and fury signifying nothing(or at least very little), to drag out another old quote. This is a no-win argument for anyone. I've been suckered into this very argument enough times to know it's not worth it. Who's childish, who is not? Both are, both are not. Doesn't matter. I don't think anyone has a good reason for what they like or don't like.

--
Bob Porter
Sibelius 7.1.3,i3 2.4 ghz,W7 64 bit,8GB 1060,laptop

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 04:37AM

Hide picture

Hi Noel-

While I feel this discussion has more than run its course, after reading your post Id like to share some additional thoughts:

1) ANYONE who would deliberately sabotage a performance such as you describe is a disgrace as a musician. I thought that when I first heard this story, and still do--

and I also note Ive now heard this story in at least a half dozen different versions, in different countries, different instruments, etc, but ALL with the same punch line..which makes me really wonder about its veracity.

And Im sure I'll hear it again, in yet ANOTHER version--same punch line:)

2) And as far as audience attendance, thanks for relaying your experiences. but that doesn't seem to be borne out by mine or others, nor especially on Youtube by the amounts of views of said kind of music.
Its alive and doing quite well, thank you!

And there are TONS of contemporary music there on youtube where the score is provided and scrolls by as you watch--surely a sign of peoples interest in it!

This is for Ferneyhough with scores:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ferneyhough+Brian+w%2Fscore

And a sampling of his more "popular" works with views

Brian Ferneyhough: Lemma-Icon-Epigram [with score]

• by Michael Nelson
• 3 years ago
• 36,236 views

Ferneyhough: String Quartet No 3 w/ score -- Movement 1/2

• by p0lyph0nyXX
• 3 years ago
• 36,803 views

Ferneyhough: String Quartet No 5 (2006) with score - 1/2

• by p0lyph0nyXX
• 4 years ago
• 61,127 views

Ferneyhough: Unity Capsule for solo flute, w/ score - Part 1/2 [Mvmnts 1,2]

• by p0lyph0nyXX
• 4 years ago
• 34,584 views

And I do note that live concert attendance for ALL kinds of music is really down in many places, and many orchestras are having a hard time of it--which is sad. Many contemporary composers seem to more favor chamber groups, rather than orchestras due to the expense, and its sound.

3) And as for calling that argument tedentious, I again refer you to the aforementioned Lexicon of Music Invective, and Ill let that speak to it. It will do a MUCH better job than I, or anyone else ever could:)

4) Its interesting but the visual arts do NOT meet with the same kind of resistance and reaction that Contemporary music does--witness the much larger knowledge of and public acceptance by artists like Jackson Pollock, Angy Warhol etc etc. whose artistic style, if translated into music, would probably earn the same inane cliche'd unfortunate responses heard here--or worse.

Thanks for sharing--of course as has been said ANY kind of music will have both those who strongly like it or dislike it. My point has been to hopefully stop the really dumb comments-as shown here!! and engage in a real discussion so that those listening to it, and those composing and performing it, might hear more of what the other is saying, and hopefully bridge at least some of the gap between them.

Its part of the music of our lifetime, and deserves a fair chance to be heard, and even possibly enjoyed:)

I hope everyone who's celebrating a holiday has a good one.

Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 20 Apr 05:47AM (edited 20 Apr 05:56AM)

Hide picture

My point has been to hopefully stop the really dumb comments-as shown here!! and engage in a real discussion so that those listening to it, and those composing and performing it, might hear more of what the other is saying, and hopefully bridge at least some of the gap between them.

How do rate yourself in terms of succeeding at this goal?

And then for the bigger picture what's an example of a really dumb comment (as posted above)?

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 06:18AM

Hide picture

>
How do rate your yourself in terms of succeeding at this goal?
>

I'm always leery to answer this kind of question, Jim as many times there usually is something else hidden being asked, or its a set up.

I do hope thats not the case here, and trusting that it isn't Ill try and answer your questions--thanks.

I wouldnt even try to rate success or anything-old prejudices die hard, as do really inane comments. But at least it was addressed, with some others actually also speaking in support of it.

I can only hope it made some progress towards that goal:)

(I do again note ,as did someone else that not a single constructive comment was offered as to WHY someone didnt like this music..just the insults)

>And then for the bigger picture what's an example of a really dumb comment?
>

Reread the thread Jim..its chock full of them, and you yourself can decide.

Thanks Bob

Ps If however I was forced to answer Jims last question, as he asked for a single example I think this is a prime example:

"As my grandfather always used to say...'I could write better music than that sitting on the toilet'.

All the rest also speak for themselves...

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Mike Lyons - 20 Apr 06:38AM

Hide picture

I have to say guys, that for people for whom I have the most profound respect, your 'discussion' here has been unedifying and undignified.

It is very much the case, I feel, that music similar to that of Brian Ferneyhough is a huge case of "The Emperor's New Clothes". While I am willing to admit that the old clothes can be fusty and full of holes, the new ones just don't appeal to me at all. The Emperor is showing his anal sphincter through them. At least the Glass clothes were tinted. ;-)

--
1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, SD-20, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 06:48AM

Hide picture

Hi Mike--

See, this is the problem:

You wrote:

>It is very much the case, I feel, that music similar to that of Brian Ferneyhough is a huge case of "The Emperor's New Clothes". While I am willing to admit that the old clothes can be fusty and full of holes, the new ones just don't appeal to me at all. The Emperor is showing his anal sphincter through them. At least the Glass clothes were tinted. ;-)
>

Insulting. and talk about unedifying and undignified--"anal sphincter"?? Give me a break:)

Maybe better to say WHY you dont like it than write the something you did..you again proved what I and others have been saying all along--

that these kind of comments dont help or solve ANYTHING:)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 06:50AM

Hide picture

PS And to Jim Druckenmiller--

I think it safe to add this "anal sphincter" comment to the toilet one.:):)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 06:57AM

Hide picture

I think perhaps this thread has run its course- thanks to all who replied.

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 20 Apr 06:57AM (edited 20 Apr 07:33AM)

Hide picture

Bob,

I read your reply, and intend to respond. Of which I'll need some time to do so.

For one thing the restaurant where I'm currently sitting is closing, and they're getting ready to take great satisfaction in throwing me out the door (just as they have so many other times in the past). . . somehow they just don't see the value of letting me stay so I can fulfill my obligation to reply to your comments.

But secondly, this is probably just as well, since I could use a little time to think about what it is I want to say.

Jut consider this a place holder for now, I'll come back and overwrite it with something a little better, I hope.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 07:18AM

Hide picture

The NERVE of that restaurant Jim:)

And theres no obligation to respond--however please feel free to do so.

(and find a NEW restaurant:)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 20 Apr 08:14AM

Hide picture

I listened to the Ferneyhough String Quartet 6 that Laurence linked to. I think it is an amazing piece. Of course it also helps that it is performed magnificently.

Let me say that my music is nothing at all like this, and that there will be many, many times when this is NOT the kind of music I want to hear at all. But there are many times when Beethoven is also exactly what I don't want to hear. That's not to compare Ferneyhough with Beethoven, but just to say that I still respect and like many kinds of music that might not suit what my spirit needs at certain times.

At the moment I feel fresh, adventurous and generous, and this feels exactly right!

I will just say that I can't relate to the comments about "cacophony", "squeaky gate" and "Emperor's New Clothes". These imply that there is no skill involved in the composition and that it resembles random noise.

To me, if you listen with keen ears and an open mind, the amazing construction of the piece is blindingly obvious. Such construction could only have come from a human mind, and a highly evolved one at that.

I have sympathy for players who say they would not be willing to spend the time necessary to prepare to play this music. I would feel the same. But again, that is not a reflection on its quality, and I bless the Arditti Quartet for being up for the challenge of doing this. The world would be a less rich place without it.

Every pitch and its placement feels exactly right to me.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Mike Lyons - 20 Apr 09:19AM

Hide picture

I apologise for upsetting your sensibilities, Bob, but it makes the point that humour is not always universally appreciated. I could have been as rude as Laurence, but decided to avoid swearing.

I find much of this music to be very well constructed, but the results of all this construction often results in ugliness. I compare this to some modern pieces of architecture. Despite all the advantages of modern materials and building design, you end up with something ugly and lacking in spirit or feeling. I, too, listened to the String quartet. The playing is superb. The construction of the piece is obviously tightly controlled and suberbly designed but it is almost completely lacking in beauty or emotional appeal. There are moments, but they are very few and far between and short lived.

This music is not for me.

--
1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, SD-20, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Apr 10:02AM

Hide picture

One serious question. Ferneyhough teaches composition. Has anyone here attended one of his courses? What does he offer?

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 12:49PM

Hide picture

> I apologise for upsetting your sensibilities, Bob, but it makes the point that humour is not always universally appreciated. I could have been as rude as Laurence, but decided to avoid swearing.

Ok then!:)

(ANYTHING that avoids "being as rude as Laurence" gets my vote..LOL)

>
> I find much of this music to be very well constructed, but the results of all this construction often results in ugliness. I compare this to some modern pieces of architecture. Despite all the advantages of modern materials and building design, you end up with something ugly and lacking in spirit or feeling. I, too, listened to the String quartet. The playing is superb. The construction of the piece is obviously tightly controlled and suberbly designed but it is almost completely lacking in beauty or emotional appeal. There are moments, but they are very few and far between and short lived.
>
> This music is not for me.

And thats fine that the music isnt for you Mike--but as you admitted, "there are moments", and this is really the first step toward getting to know, and come to grips as it were with this new music...

hearing and realizing that there IS something within and beyond its "ugliness"(your words!) that is actually of substance, and worth listening to:)

And maybe even enjoying.!

Thanks Bob

>
> --
> 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Win 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 7TB HDD, SD-20, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2, 7.1.3 EWQLSO Plat, Miroslav Phil, NotePerformer, Harmony Asst, EWQLSC, GPO, COMB2
> Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse.

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 12:59PM

Hide picture

> I listened to the Ferneyhough String Quartet 6 that Laurence linked to. I think it is an amazing piece. Of course it also helps that it is performed magnificently.
>
> Let me say that my music is nothing at all like this, and that there will be many, many times when this is NOT the kind of music I want to hear at all. But there are many times when Beethoven is also exactly what I don't want to hear. That's not to compare Ferneyhough with Beethoven, but just to say that I still respect and like many kinds of music that might not suit what my spirit needs at certain times.
>
> At the moment I feel fresh, adventurous and generous, and this feels exactly right!
>
> I will just say that I can't relate to the comments about "cacophony", "squeaky gate" and "Emperor's New Clothes". These imply that there is no skill involved in the composition and that it resembles random noise.
>
> To me, if you listen with keen ears and an open mind, the amazing construction of the piece is blindingly obvious. Such construction could only have come from a human mind, and a highly evolved one at that.
>
> I have sympathy for players who say they would not be willing to spend the time necessary to prepare to play this music. I would feel the same. But again, that is not a reflection on its quality, and I bless the Arditti Quartet for being up for the challenge of doing this. The world would be a less rich place without it.
>
> Every pitch and its placement feels exactly right to me.
>
> --
> A composer www.markisaacs.com

WOW Mark--what an amazing EXCELLENT post!
Thank you--it was a sheer pleasure to read, and RE-read it:)

And its especially appreciated as it isnt easy to stand up and say such wonderful stuff when there is so much insulting going on. Your sensitivities as a composer and human being come shining thru, as it does with the wonderful music Ive heard of yours.

I couldn't add ANYTHING to what youve said here--what a remarkable piece of writing, and I hope its read and taken to heart by all.

Thank you again for such an informed, beautiful post--you made my day:)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Apr 11:54AM

Hide picture

> 1) ANYONE who would deliberately sabotage a performance such as you describe is a disgrace as a musician. I thought that when I first heard this story, and still do--
>
> and I also note Ive now heard this story in at least a half dozen different versions, in different countries, different instruments, etc, but ALL with the same punch line..which makes me really wonder about its veracity.
>
> And Im sure I'll hear it again, in yet ANOTHER version--same punch line:)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I guess a lot of people find the truth behind it worth repeating then!

There's another, possibly true, story of a performer who had a purposeful wrong note inserted in her band parts so that she could stop the rehearsal with "Second trumpet, shouldn't that be a Bb?", thus gaining the respect of the musicians. Of course the part was corrected very early on. But they let her keep doing it.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 12:36PM

Hide picture

> > 1) ANYONE who would deliberately sabotage a performance such as you describe is a disgrace as a musician. I thought that when I first heard this story, and still do--
> >
> > and I also note Ive now heard this story in at least a half dozen different versions, in different countries, different instruments, etc, but ALL with the same punch line..which makes me really wonder about its veracity.
> >
> > And Im sure I'll hear it again, in yet ANOTHER version--same punch line:)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> I guess a lot of people find the truth behind it worth repeating then!
>

Huh? The "truth behind it"?

Thats the point--the truth of this story is VERY doubtful...
its just a way to spread more hateful prejudice against new music so others agree with those who dont like it.

Thanks Bob

Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Apr 01:21PM

Hide picture

> > I guess a lot of people find the truth behind it worth repeating then!
> >
>
>
> Huh? The "truth behind it"?
>
> Thats the point--the truth of this story is VERY doubtful...

The truth BEHIND IT I said! It's not a strictly representational story. No trees and lakes - the meaning lies rather deeper in. Rather like some modern music. I thought you'd relate to that!

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 01:28PM

Hide picture

Nice try..but there IS no truth to it, in it, behind it, above it or around it..etc.

its just a way--a vehicle-- to spread prejudice and insults about new music, to get others to agree with someone who doesnt like it...

Now THATS something you can relate to Laurence!

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Porter - 20 Apr 01:46PM

Hide picture

I don't think it is any more possible to say why you don't like a particular kind of music, than it is to say why you do like it. The same terms can be used on both sides.

It does/doesn't speak to me.
It's noise.
It's beautiful.
It's "well constructed." This is my personal favorite. This seems to be used when someone can't think of anything nicer to say.
I can/can't hum it.
If you would listen with open ears you could appreciate this or that about it. Appreciating this or that has nothing to do with liking it.

We all know that to most of the planet, a Beethoven string quartet, while well constructed, is just noise that they wouldn't be caught dead listening to. It's not even a matter of debate to most folks. It only matters to the comparatively few musical people that there are.

Whenever a "new" type of music comes along, some people like it, some don't. Just like the former music. Some parts of the new are accepted and incorporated into mainstream (whatever that is) composition. This is how things change.

When I was in music school in the early 70s, we spent a very long time trying to define music. All the above arguments came into play. Plus "It has pitch and rhythm." Well, by that definition, a lawnmower is making music. Some would agree, I know. No definition was ever reached.

I know we all think we have a good defense for our tastes. But do we really?

--
Bob Porter
Sibelius 7.1.3,i3 2.4 ghz,W7 64 bit,8GB 1060,laptop

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Apr 02:45PM

Hide picture

> We all know that to most of the planet, a Beethoven string quartet, while well constructed, is just noise that they wouldn't be caught dead listening to. It's not even a matter of debate to most folks. It only matters to the comparatively few musical people that there are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

We hear stories of classical music being played in shopping malls to keep the teenagers away. Maybe they really do find a Beethoven quartet physically repulsive?

Very little music affects me that badly (except when it's being played too loud). There's usually some craft behind it, and the possibility that someone might require me to fake that style for money :-)

Funny how the strongest opinions sometimes come from people who don't actively make music, whether amateur or professional, as a performer or a writer... No matter whether they're playing for Sinatra (respect, Richie:_) or simply using Sibelius to transpose hymns for a church band. I think most of us here are "doers" rather than "talkers". Good.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Richard Vitale - 20 Apr 05:51PM (edited 20 Apr 09:58PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 06:25PM (edited 20 Apr 09:32PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 06:49PM (edited 20 Apr 09:33PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 20 Apr 09:38PM (edited 20 Apr 09:39PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Richard Vitale - 20 Apr 07:28PM (edited 20 Apr 10:00PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 07:40PM (edited 20 Apr 09:34PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Richard Vitale - 20 Apr 08:35PM (edited 20 Apr 10:01PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 08:42PM (edited 20 Apr 09:34PM)

Hide picture

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 20 Apr 08:55PM

Hide picture

Back to OT on Topic.

I have not seen anything notated in a score by Ferneyhough with Finale that can not be so notated with Sibelius.

Leaving the like or dislike of his music out of it.

--
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, Bob Zawalich plugins, dolet 6.3

Finale 2010b,2011b,2012c, 2014a, TGTools pro, Patterson plugins, JW Plugins, GPO4, World Instruments
ProTools 9.5, Reaper
Notion4, Progression, Progression2

Windows XP Pro (32 bit); 7 Pro (64bit); 8 Pro (64 bit)/ 4-16GB Ram across three PC's

Pencil & Paper

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 09:20PM

Hide picture

This is very encouraging Ralph as early in the thread someone had posted:

"Have you ever actually tried using Sibelius to write a Ferneyhough score?

Finale is quite a lot better, but still a long way from ideal."

I replied that I had soundwise but nowhere as near as complex as his notation.

Perhaps we could get Mr Ferneyhough to now try Sib?:)
(after we hide this thread, of course..Im not sure he'd appreciate the comments about his music LOL:)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 20 Apr 09:39PM (edited 20 Apr 10:41PM)

Hide picture

Have at it gentlemen. I guess I don’t have as much of a problem as I originally thought.

The standard rules of free speech apply here, and folks have a right to make comments (offensive or not), and from there the same rights apply to those who wish to respond, or take offense.

My ultimate issue is with that stupid smiley, I guess. This little postscript icon is blurring the line between gentle humor, and thinly disguised backhanded compliments, or editorial remarks in general (of a rather vicious nature). To this point I’m disappointed that folks are obscuring their true intent. What’s wrong with airing things out a bit, and saying what’s really on your mind - in a courageous manner... without hiding behind good Old Mr. :-)

For one thing you’ll be doing me (and perhaps most people) a favor with regard to saving a lot of time. I’ve never seen a thread before where I’ve had to put so much effort into finding the underlying messages and intentions.

But there I go breaking my own rule of allowing free speech to play out, in the exact manner and style that it did, as determined by those who wanted to express themselves.

No Harm, No Problem, I guess I’m over it.

But I’ll go on wondering why so many will be unimpressed or even disappointed when reading this thread.

-----

Yet FRUSTRATION remains, I think the ultimate point of this discussion should have been centered on the reasons why Brian Ferneyhough chooses to use Finale over Sibelius when creating his scores. Rob Tuley, of course tried to raise the topic here, and he unfortunately got steamrolled over by the many passionate comments which followed.

And to the shame of us ALL, not even ONE PERSON has bothered to ask if Rob is Okay.

If I can be so bold as to represent us all, I’d like to do so now. . .

Oh Rob, Are you still alive?. . . What’s it like to be buried under an avalanche of high spirited (and sometimes self-righteous) opinion. Is this something you can ever fully recover from, or are you going to have to enter into the world of high finance or politics just to stay sane.

[I’d be tempted to toss in a smiley here, but in the context of this thread, I have no effing idea what that would actually mean... So I better play it safe and let the words speak for themselves]. . . [and with apologies, of course, to those who take exception of my speaking on their behalf].

But still the serious point remains... Is there anybody on this forum who actually thinks Sibelius would be the better choice for creating a Ferneyhough style score?... which I loosely characterize as a graphic intensive layout.

I think he has the best tool for the job (in Finale), and I’d very much like to see Sibelius improve in this department. Not just for the purposes of catering to avante-garde composition. But also for the benefit of authors, and educational users who are creating worksheets, samples, or other unorthodox page layouts.

Just my opinion, of course, which I’d obviously like others to share as well.

----

I LOVE this forum, in ways that would be hard to express.

In many ways this discussion contains a great sense of honesty, even in spite of the subtext which exists between the lines (and is punctuated with that stupid smiley). It’s a real world kind of discussion, and I very much appreciate that folks are comfortable enough with each other to speak as they are. And the Irony of this discussion taking place during a holiday adds to that kind of realism.

I’ve seen plenty of heated and high spirited discussion at various family gatherings which I’ve been invited to during the holiday seasons. And the fact that one has taken place here just goes to underscore the uniqueness of what this forum is and has become.

I wouldn’t want to see anybody leave it. . . but at the same time, I’d also like to see (on occasion) folks given the benefit of the doubt. Embracing discourse, or discenting opinion is a vital matter of importance.

And in doing so one opens up for accepting what could be called NEW... opinion or music, I see little difference between the two.

It comes down to the simple act of how gracious one is willing to be when trying to understand the expression of another (be it Music, or Opinion).

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 09:55PM (edited 20 Apr 10:16PM)

Hide picture

Pls see the post a few above yours:

"Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 20 Apr 08:55PM
Back to OT on Topic.

I have not seen anything notated in a score by Ferneyhough with Finale that can not be so notated with Sibelius.

Leaving the like or dislike of his music out of it."

Thanks Bob

PS

The rest of your post, Ill gladly skip, as I feel its somewhat replete with comments and stuff that only possibly prolongs the very ugly side of this thread, that Id rather get away from..thanks:)

And about the smiley..its how I write, and will continue do so, out of habit and feel its a good proper usage thanks... and I NEVER hide behind it, or anything else. Its simply not necessary:)

Bob

PPS I see youve added to your post--

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 11:21PM

Hide picture

Hi Jim--

Getting back on topic--

Also heres a few samples from the web concerning Sib vs Fin and contemporary notation:

http://www.choralnet.org/view/221943

"If you do not need to do challenging contemporary music (think Boulez,
Lutoslawski), then Sibelius is just fine for most things."

http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=1820

"I have found also that the creation of music symbols for contemporary music has been faster and easier in Finale."

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?145808-Finale-Versus-Sibelius/page2

"Re: Finale Versus Sibelius

I really like using Sibelius. Although I admit that I haven't tried it, I too have heard bad things about Finale's ease of use. To me, Finale seems like what you might use if you write contemporary classical music and need an extreme amount of options and flexibility, but for the other 98% of us, Sibelius works great."

http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?9991-Sibelius-or-Finale

"I use finale for all my works. I study academic music and for contemporary stuff (lets say post stravinsky) finale has a really nice set of posibilities."

Seems Finale does have at the least a reputation for being the 'go to' program for contemporary notation--I couldnt find anyone saying the used Sib ofr ths kind of stuff.

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 20 Apr 11:24PM

Hide picture

You'll be off to Finale then, Bob?

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Apr 11:42PM

Hide picture

Not really Laurence--but thanks for asking:)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 21 Apr 12:38AM

Hide picture

Hi Bob,
Your links are to dated opinions 2005-2010.
Both Finale and Sibelius have seen some growth in the interim, (but) and even now needs be exported to Illustrator to fully realize some of the more esoteric notation for their scores to be fully realized.
I stand by my statement that Sibelius can produce the scores I have seen from Ferneyhough.

--
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, Bob Zawalich plugins, dolet 6.3

Finale 2010b,2011b,2012c, 2014a, TGTools pro, Patterson plugins, JW Plugins, GPO4, World Instruments
ProTools 9.5, Reaper
Notion4, Progression, Progression2

Windows XP Pro (32 bit); 7 Pro (64bit); 8 Pro (64 bit)/ 4-16GB Ram across three PC's

Pencil & Paper

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 21 Apr 01:32AM

Hide picture

> Hi Bob,
> Your links are to dated opinions 2005-2010.
> Both Finale and Sibelius have seen some growth in the interim, (but) and even now needs be exported to Illustrator to fully realize some of the more esoteric notation for their scores to be fully realized.
> I stand by my statement that Sibelius can produce the scores I have seen from Ferneyhough.

Hi Ralph--

Those were the only ones I could find and I honestly didnt think the dates made all that much of a difference--they were just to show what the feeling was out there concerning this.

And even before this thread, I had always heard the same about Finale vs Sib in this matter.

Its good to hear that you feel Sib can also do this stuff and these links weren't to prove otherwise, again, just to show what the perception is concerning this out in the musical world.

I dont know how important this is to Avid, (I somehow feel it might not be of much importance to them) but if it is. perhaps Sib might make more of a effort in this area to dispel this conception.

Maybe find Sibs answer to Mr. Ferneyhough:)

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 21 Apr 12:12AM (edited 21 Apr 12:28AM)

Hide picture

> PPS I see youve added to your post--

Yes I know, I've been at a disadvantage to keep up with the speed of of this threads growth.

I was going to hold back my last set of comments (which you’ve recognized), so I could add to them and more directly reply to you later this evening. I'm a big fan of contemporary music, and I suspect we have much in common in this area... and I understand your willingness to want to defend it and such.

My smiley comments weren't directed at you, or anyone in particular... I was just trying to press upon the idea that I think they clouded many comments that have been made, and people in general took to defend their stand/cause a little bit prematurely, and somehow tensions started to build a little quicker than I'm use to. But thats just me.

You guys play too hard for me. I truly hope that the smiles represented what I would use them for... mainly to make damn sure that the other person knows I'm speaking in gest, and not attempting to cast any other twist upon the remarks I made.

I don’t intend to begrudge you personally the right to use them.

Anyhow, things are being taken to heart here, and at a higher level that what I’m used to in other threads.

Cut me a little slack if you can. I’m not trying to trap anybody, or blame them for messing up what the threads potential could have been (which is not say it still wont become something even better than it is).

Thanks for the Links, Now I have something to look forward to this evening. Hopefully I’ll have enough time to give them their due credit. otherwise as usual, I’ll have to add in a delayed response.

---

Am I off base by suggesting that perhaps this forum needs to adopt a delayed post button, which has a build in cooling off period, so we can all think twice about how we treat each other, and what it is we want to say :-)

Actually thats a bad idea, and I’m sorry I mentioned it.

Take Care,

Jim

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 21 Apr 01:46AM

Hide picture

> I'm a big fan of contemporary music, and I suspect we have much in common in this area... and I understand your willingness to want to defend it and such.
>

Good to hear!

And not so much to defend it as to get it a fair hearing..ie., get past the usual spate of insults like we heard here, and get to the music.

I really like to hear and calmly discuss comments on why people like and dislike this kind of music, so as to know how to again try and bridge the gap even a little between composer. performer and audience.

>
> My smiley comments weren't directed at you, or anyone in particular... I truly hope that the smiles represented what I would use them for... mainly to make damn sure that the other person knows I'm speaking in gest, and not attempting to cast any other twist upon the remarks I made.
>

I cant speak for others, but thats how I use them.

> Anyhow, things are being taken to heart here, and at a higher level that what I’m used to in other threads.

I dont see it that way, Jim, but of course perceptions differ. Ive seen MUCH worse!

>
> Cut me a little slack if you can. I’m not trying to trap anybody, or blame them for messing up what the threads potential could have been (which is not say it still wont become something even better than it is).

I had NO idea it would turn into this, or I would have thought twice about posting it.
It was taken out of topic right form the start.

>
> Thanks for the Links, Now I have something to look forward to this evening. Hopefully I’ll have enough time to give them their due credit. otherwise as usual, I’ll have to add in a delayed response.

Youre welcome-Ralph pointed out theyre a little dated, but I feel the perception still holds that in this area Finale has Sibelius beat.

Its good to hear Ralph say in regards to Ferneyhough, and I would take all contemporary music, that this actually isnt the case.

>
> Take Care,
>
> Jim

Thanks for your thoughts, Jim.

Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 21 Apr 04:08AM

Hide picture

Bob, thank you for your generous comments about my earlier post.

I am trying to stay with the music.

But in fairness, I must acknowledge that for composers over 40 there can be some understandable emotionalism around "new music" because of the way the doctrine of High Modernism that abounded in the 1960s and 1970s in classical composition was deployed.

I became a composition undergraduate in 1976 and the atmosphere was stifling. In not so many words, I was told that I must stop writing tonal music or my music would be "irrelevant". I was strong-willed and never accepted this, but merely listened open-mindedly to whatever I encountered. I was especially able to stick to my guns, as I was deeply involved in modern jazz as well, where despite the free jazz movement, tonal, melodic music was not totally eschewed. Indeed, I felt that in many ways jazz was truly "modern" in a more universal way than contemporary classical music. For example, contemporary classical music pioneered "extended techniques" which apart from a handful of specialist players were not generally adopted. Whereas, in jazz and other non-classical forms like funk, soul, rock etc all sorts of new extended techniques - and indeed new instruments - were adopted across the board, perhaps because they were hatched by composer-performers rather than non-performing composers often based at Universities.

So I think some residual resistance to High Modernism - indeed prejudice against it - is understandable. Not so much because of the music itself, but because of the way an (ironically) conservative culture was built around the music, that broke a lot of people's hearts in the way it sneered at their melodic, tonal dispositions. And perhaps some felt the need to sneer back, and maybe still do. Now of course, post-modernism has swept all this away, but it too comes with its own problems: a kind of listless, anything-goes, directionless approach to questions of aesthetics.

Again, the best of the modernist/complexist school (Ferneyhough, Boulez, Elliot Carter etc etc) stands on its own merits and need not answer for any poisonous attitudes that were promulgated in its name in the past. Indeed, by and large many of its most successful proponents were generous and eclectic in their taste, even if not in their actual music. Milton Babbit played Broadway tunes at parties, and the high priest of set theory, Alan Forte, has written a wonderful tome on the Great American Songbook.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
www.facebook.com/markisaacsmusic
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Jesper Elén - 21 Apr 05:44AM

Hide picture

>I stand by my statement that Sibelius can produce the scores I have seen from >Ferneyhough.

I did this some years ago in Sibelius, maybe not the most complex Ferneyhough score but I do think that some things are easier in Finale. Never wan't to go back though since working in Sibelius is so much more fun in general.

Jesper

--
MacBook Pro, 8GB, OS 10.9.2,
Sibelius 7.5, Wallander Intstruments Brass & Woodwind 2.35,
Wallander Intstruments NotePerformer 1.3.0,
EZDrummer Jazz 1.3.3, Pianoteq Standard 4.5.4, Acoustic Samples The Upright

Attachment

Bone Alphabet.jpg (256K)

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Morabito - 21 Apr 08:22AM (edited 21 Apr 08:28AM)

Hide picture

> Bob, thank you for your generous comments about my earlier post.

Youre very welcome Mark--I sincerely meant them as it really was a great post:)

(And this opinion is shared by others!)

>
> I am trying to stay with the music.
>
> But in fairness, I must acknowledge that for composers over 40 there can be some understandable emotionalism around "new music" because of the way the doctrine of High Modernism that abounded in the 1960s and 1970s in classical composition was deployed.
>
> I became a composition undergraduate in 1976 and the atmosphere was stifling. In not so many words, I was told that I must stop writing tonal music or my music would be "irrelevant". I was strong-willed and never accepted this, but merely listened open-mindedly to whatever I encountered. I was especially able to stick to my guns, as I was deeply involved in modern jazz as well, where despite the free jazz movement, tonal, melodic music was not totally eschewed. Indeed, I felt that in many ways jazz was truly "modern" in a more universal way than contemporary classical music. For example, contemporary classical music pioneered "extended techniques" which apart from a handful of specialist players were not generally adopted. Whereas, in jazz and other non-classical forms like funk, soul, rock etc all sorts of new extended techniques - and indeed new instruments - were adopted across the board, perhaps because they were hatched by composer-performers rather than non-performing composers often based at Universities.
>

I have heard about this--and believe it or not, STILL hear the occasional story about this being done nowadays. I thankfully never experienced it, and am really sorry for those who did.

It was horrifyingly WRONG.

We can all only hope that such a condition NEVER rears its ugly head again, and people should be able to write THEIR kind of music, and not be dictated to.

> So I think some residual resistance to High Modernism - indeed prejudice against it - is understandable. Not so much because of the music itself, but because of the way an (ironically) conservative culture was built around the music, that broke a lot of people's hearts in the way it sneered at their melodic, tonal dispositions. And perhaps some felt the need to sneer back, and maybe still do. Now of course, post-modernism has swept all this away, but it too comes with its own problems: a kind of listless, anything-goes, directionless approach to questions of aesthetics.
>

I can easily understand this, Mark, and sympathize with it--

but I do think though that the kind of prejudice exhibited here is of a different sort than what you sadly went through--

and its not based on experience to either that attitude or any real experience with this kind of music itself,

but more of the fear of the new, and being threatened by it--ie. making those experienced in the older music the "new kid on the block" with this new music.

Its a sad situation.

So the same old cliched barbs are thrown at the music, but once they stop--as one poster here said--he did find a moment or so in Ferneyhoughs piece that was enjoyed, albeit few and far between.

But even to admit that was brave, and also a great small step in the right direction.

And again, getting beyond the hateful words can lead to some sort of meaningful dialog that hopefully can start to bridge the gap from all sides.

> Again, the best of the modernist/complexist school (Ferneyhough, Boulez, Elliot Carter etc etc) stands on its own merits and need not answer for any poisonous attitudes that were promulgated in its name in the past. Indeed, by and large many of its most successful proponents were generous and eclectic in their taste, even if not in their actual music. Milton Babbit played Broadway tunes at parties, and the high priest of set theory, Alan Forte, has written a wonderful tome on the Great American Songbook.

>

With the exception of Ferneyhough Ive been lucky enough to be able to have met both Carter and Babbitt, and Aaron Copland, and witness Boulez at his very worst at a Juilliard recital.

These were great men, and great composers.

And I always admire the step Carter took out from behind Copland's shadow to find his own original true voice--again this took guts and a very strong belief in oneself.

I again repeat--its OK NOT to like this music, or ANY kind of music--just give it a fair chance, and stop the poisonous words..and maybe a moment or too can also be heard and enjoyed, like the poster here, and be the start of getting familiar, and perhaps even possibly liking this kind of music one day.

Thank you again for such a great post Mark.

Thanks Bob

--
Bob Morabito
Sib 6.2, 7.1.3. 7.5 Mac OS 10.7.5 iMac 8GB RAM

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by SteveM - 21 Apr 10:05AM

Hide picture

I haven't had time to read every post in this thread - it's a bit long!
In my opinion art, and ones response to art is very personal and individual. If something affects you, stirs your emotions and makes you respond in a satisfying or positive way, then for YOU that is art. If it does not elicit the same response in someone else then for THEM it is not art.
I'm all for many and varied art forms because we are all different, we all respond in different ways and we all take different things away from a performance or exhibition. If all art was the same or prescriptive the world would be less interesting and we may as well move to North Korea where we would be told what to listen to and how to respond.
Steve

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Bob Porter - 21 Apr 02:26PM

Hide picture

An observation:

I find it interesting that, for the most part, only discussions about new (atonal) v traditional music generate such heated discourse.
Not sure I've heard....
Person A. I don't like Mozart.
Person B. Why?
A. Well, he's too predictable. It all sounds the same. It's as irritating as a cat scratching on a tin roof.
B. Why you uneducated swine(not the actual words, but the intent is there) What about (lists several pieces that, to him, illustrate how great Mozart is). Go find yourself some Lassus to listen to and be happy.

I've never heard that discussion.

Or:

A. I don't like rock. It sounds like cats on a tin roof.
B. If you would only just take the time to listen to it, you would grow to like it.
B. I don't want to waste that time.

I some respects, I find both sides lacking.

--
Bob Porter
Sibelius 7.1.3,i3 2.4 ghz,W7 64 bit,8GB 1060,laptop

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Jeff Hale - 21 Apr 08:19PM

Hide picture

I'm late to this party, but wanted to comment on one of the statements made above:

"art is only art if you can't easily describe it in just one sentence".

Berg described Mahler's Ninth as a crescendo followed by a decrescendo. I heard Leonard Bernstein describe that statement as the best analysis of the piece he'd ever heard. Does that mean it's not art?

--
windows XP Professional, Sibelius 7.1.3

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Laurence Payne - 21 Apr 08:24PM

Hide picture

> I'm late to this party, but wanted to comment on one of the statements made above:
>
> "art is only art if you can't easily describe it in just one sentence".
>
> Berg described Mahler's Ninth as a crescendo followed by a decrescendo. I heard Leonard Bernstein describe that statement as the best analysis of the piece he'd ever heard. Does that mean it's not art?
>

Only if it's ALL you can say about it :-)

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 21 Apr 08:55PM (edited 22 Apr 03:21AM)

Hide picture

> Berg described Mahler's Ninth as a crescendo followed by a decrescendo. I heard Leonard Bernstein describe that statement as the best analysis of the piece he'd ever heard. Does that mean it's not art?
>

I don’t think so.

That's a much better description than anything I've ever come up with for this piece (which happens to be among my all time favorites).

The buildup to start off the 4th movement was the first thing to come to mind when I saw the term 'cacophony' used above. While it might not be the best example to use if one were to search for a perfect match as a musical definition... It was nonetheless my initial reaction. As well as my own inconsistency I suppose, in using a (questionably) offensive term to describe my favorite section of a Great Symphony.

---

I love that quote, I’ve never heard it before, and it’s very well received now... I just have to try and figure out how to pass it off as my own.

Re: OT: Ferneyhough favors Finale..FOOEY!:)
Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 22 Apr 06:32AM (edited 22 Apr 05:48PM)

Hide picture

of possible interest:

This is coming out of a Radio Station that broadcasts in Los Angeles, California. which (for the international forum users) is a city that ranks as the 2nd largest in the US. Home to USC, UCLA, Cal Poly Tech, and a host of other pristigious institutions. It boasts a population of around 3.8 million (as a city), or if viewed as a county which is the more typical viewpoint, then the population count moves up to over 10 million.

Anyhow, back before the internet, Los Angeles had two major radio stations which were dedicated to broadcasting classical music 24 hours a day. This count has dropped to only one now, and that happens to come out of USC - where it braodcasts under the name/call sign KUSC. [the K in this name is mandated by governemnt regulation, and all the radio station call signs have to start with this letter K].

I don't listen to radio too much these days, given the alternatives, but just by chance I happened to be listening to this station a few weeks ago, and during a time when they were running a contest that encouraged each member of the audience to vote for their favorite composer. The contest was conducted in the format of a head to head matchup, where every couple of hours two composers would be featured, and the listeners would go online to vote for their favorite, of the two. The contest was spread out to take place across most of the week.

The results can be seen below in the attachment, or by direct link to results page of the KUSC Composers' Cup.

This ended up being a pretty effective station promotion for KUSC, and I'm sure that they'll end up doing this again. I also suspect that other stations might have tried this kind of promotion as well, and I'd be curious to see the results if anyone else has encountered such a thing.

I bet anybody reading this thread will be able to get pretty close to predicting the winner of this contest long before they even look at the results.

As for myself, having lived near LA county for quite sometime now - I had a good indication of the outcome YEARS before the contest ever took place. . . That 2nd radio station that I mentioned (which is no longer around now). Well, a few years before they went under and stopped broadcasting completely - in an effort to revamp thier reputation and provide music which the listeners really wanted to hear, they replaced the general station manager, and decided to rename the station while they were at it.

They named it. . . KMOZART.

Anybody want to take a wild guess on what they played most of the day??

-----

EDIT -- A Retraction (or maybe only a correction):

I went looking to find the date when KMOZART stoppoed broadcasting, and to my surprise I discovered that they're still around... or found a way to come back to life... I'm not really sure about the details of this new revamp.

I guess that they switched over to the AM format, and shut down the FM band which is what I remember listening to.

Proof can be seen here at kmozart.com.

Attachment

KUSC Composers' Cup.png (211K)