'Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when score begins with pick-up bar'

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Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when sco... - billworld, 27 Sep 10:29PM
     Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - billworld, 27 Sep 10:45PM
         Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - billworld, 27 Sep 10:49PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - Jody Hughes, 28 Sep 12:05AM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - billworld, 28 Sep 12:14AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - Richard Hatton, 28 Sep 07:47AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - Laurence Payne, 28 Sep 09:51AM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - Benjamin, 26 May 10:52AM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - Adrian Drover, 26 May 11:39AM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - Bob Zawalich, 26 May 04:46PM

Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when score begins with pick-up bar
Posted by billworld - 27 Sep 10:29PM (edited 27 Sep 10:41PM)
I have movement a in 4/4 which begins with a two beat pick-up bar. Is it customary practice for parts to count this as an entire bar?

Page 478 of the ref. man. says:

------
Pick-up (upbeat) bars
If your music starts with a pick-up (upbeat) bar, it’s normal to number the first complete bar as bar 1, rather than bar 2 as it would otherwise be. Sibelius automatically numbers pick-up bars as bar 0.
------

At least to me this would infer that the pick-up bar is a zero bar and shouldn't be a part of the count for bars at rest.

To be honest, I forget what common conventional practice is in part notation regarding this.

It would seem to me the most clear representation would be for the pick-up to be indicated in the parts as a two beat bar of rest followed by a complete 4/4 bar with the count of full 4/4 bars at rest.

I fear my musicians will get confused with the default and current way the parts are counting rests in this movement. Am I missing something? Is there a better way to do this? Is there a way for Sibelius to automatically add the pick-up bar as a two-beat rest at the start of the movement?

Thanks

Bill
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Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when score begins with pick-up bar
Posted by billworld - 27 Sep 10:45PM
Oh and I've read the thread at http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=590183&groupid=3&&guest=1 which also points out this issue where the question of whether the pick-up bar was created via an irregular bar or via time signature creation.

In my case it was created via time signature entry when the movement existed as a separate file. I then merged movements into a single file. During the process I had to tweak some things (say for example to get rid of the cautionary 4/4 time sig. that got inserted at the end of the prior movement in 3/4 after appending. I'm not sure if that process of trying to fix things up makes the pick-up no longer get translated to the parts or not.

I'm currently looking into recreating the bar once again at the start of the movement by inserting a new time sig. But. that raises issues of having difficulty with selecting all the stuff (sub-title, etc) associated with what used to be the first bar.

Still searching for a way to fix this. Any help appreciated.

Thanks

Bill
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Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when score begins with pick-up bar
Posted by billworld - 27 Sep 10:49PM
Well I recreated the pick-up bar via a new time signature entry, but, the problem with incorrect rests count in parts persists.

I guess I have to use one of the plugins referenced in the thread I pointed to in my last post and apply it to every single part to fix this issue?
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Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when score begins with pick-up bar
Posted by Jody Hughes - 28 Sep 12:05AM
Hi

Your instincts are correct: any pick-up beats are treated as a bar zero, and should be shown with rests showing the correct rhythmic length in any resting parts. This is what Sibelius does by default, but there a couple of ways that you can get it to populate a pick-up bar with a whole-bar rest instead, which you definitely don't want.

It's especially important that the pick-up bar is not included in a multirest, which it won't if it has (say) a minim (half) rest in it, instead of the whole-bar rest.

The solution (there may be a plugin that will help, I don't know) is to (in the score) make sure all staves (even any hidden ones) have the correct rests. Shouldn't take long.

Hope that helps. If not, perhaps you could post the score.
Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
Sibelius 7.1.3 | iMac 3.2GHz i3 | OS X Version 10.6.8 Snow Leopard
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Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when score begins with pick-up bar
Posted by billworld - 28 Sep 12:14AM
Yes! Thanks Jeremy! Your suggestion to make sure ALL rests in the score have the CORRECT rests was spot on. In this case—to be clear in order to help anyone else with this similar issue—"correct" means a two beat rest (two quarter note rests) vs what was there (one whole bar rest) for SOME of the instruments.

The whole bar rests were there as a result of selecting the bar and pressing the delete key. Perhaps Sibelius should more intelligently handle this in that when performing this action in a pick up bar the CORRECT rest gets inserted.

Thanks for the help!

Bill
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Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when score begins with pick-up bar
Posted by Richard Hatton - 28 Sep 07:47AM (edited 28 Sep 10:03AM)
One possible problem (which I have encountered on several occasions) is that if another instrument is added to an existing score with a pickup bar a "whole bar rest" is placed in the pickup bar of that instrument.
If then that new part is silent for several bars a multirest is created in the part which INCLUDES the pickup bar and can lead to problems in performance. The answer to this is, as Jeremy has said above, to make sure you replace the whole bar rest with the the "correct" rest.

--
Richard Hatton
Sibelius 7.1.3 and Photoscore Ult. 7.0.2; Windows 7 64 bit; quad core i7, 16GB ram; core I5, 8 GB ram also with Sibelius 6
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Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when score begins with pick-up bar
Posted by Laurence Payne - 28 Sep 09:51AM
It's perfectly acceptable to have a (say) 2-beat pickup bar. But, if Sibelius decides to put a whole-bar rest in it, replace it with a two-beat rest. And never let it be included in a multi-rest.

Using a full bar with two introductory beats rest would be less clear for everyone - particularly those counting rests from the beginning.
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Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when score begins with pick-up bar
Posted by Benjamin - 26 May 10:52AM
THANKS!
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Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when score begins with pick-up bar
Posted by Adrian Drover - 26 May 11:39AM
Be careful about having an odd number of 8th rests in a pickup measure in swing time. Better to have a whole measure pickup and delete the unwanted rests.
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Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when score begins with pick-up bar
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 26 May 04:46PM (edited 27 May 05:14AM)
There are some plugins that can help with this.

Note that even if a pickup bar is created with non-bar rests, instruments that are added after the pickup bar was created will contain bar rests which can be a problem.

Split Bar Rests (category Notes and Rests) will split bar rests into smaller units (typically based on the beat). It has an option to do this only for irregular bars.

Add Pickup Bar will split the rests in the irregular bar it creates.

Add Pickup Bar with Deleted Rests (category Composing Tools) does what Adrian mentions, which is to add a bar the same size as the time signature with the leading rests deleted (not hidden) which can help with getting proper emphasis during playback.



--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, 32 G RAM. Year 2018.
For plugin lookup and categories see https://www.nycmusicservices.com/musicresources
For manual plugin installation see http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?help=install
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Messages in this thread

Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when sco... - billworld, 27 Sep 10:29PM
     Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - billworld, 27 Sep 10:45PM
         Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - billworld, 27 Sep 10:49PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - Jody Hughes, 28 Sep 12:05AM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - billworld, 28 Sep 12:14AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - Richard Hatton, 28 Sep 07:47AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - Laurence Payne, 28 Sep 09:51AM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - Benjamin, 26 May 10:52AM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - Adrian Drover, 26 May 11:39AM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: bar count for rests in parts when... - Bob Zawalich, 26 May 04:46PM