Avid & Sibelius Posted by Ben Finn - 20 Jul 05:06PM Hide picture We were very concerned to hear earlier this month that Avid is terminating the jobs of the Sibelius development team in London and handing the software over to other programmers, apparently to cut costs. As far as we know, Sibelius continues to be extremely successful, so this cost-cutting is a response to financial problems elsewhere in Avid, not with Sibelius itself. Ever since then we have been quietly trying to do everything we can to change this situation, including twice offering to buy Sibelius back from Avid. However, Avid has declined. While they haven't given a reason, we assume that Sibelius is a substantial source of profits to them, so they don't want to sell it to anyone. We naturally feel very sad about this treatment of our friends and colleagues who have been key to making Sibelius a success, and who have become the world experts in this specialized field. We are also very grateful to the many Sibelius users who have expressed their concern and support; though at this point, it seems unlikely that any protests will change Avid's mind. We hope Sibelius nonetheless continues to be the world's most successful music notation software. Ben & Jonathan Finn Sibelius founders Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by John Murdoch - 20 Jul 05:27PM Hide picture Ben & Jonathan-- Thank you for your post--it is encouraging to hear of your actions, and your work to preserve the Sibelius team. -- Sibelius 2 - 7.1 | Hauptwerk 4 Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit Intel i5 quad CPU, 8 GB RAM | M-Audio Fast Track C600 Keurig B60 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Mike Fackrell - 20 Jul 05:57PM Hide picture Ben & Jonathan - keep at it!! Kind regards, Mike -- Sib. 7.1, Win 7 64-bit, 4GB Ram, M-Audio Keyrig 49, GPO4, Yamaha CVP-405, Tyros 3 www.mikefackrell.co.uk Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Matt Oglesby - 20 Jul 06:09PM (edited 20 Jul 06:11PM) Hide picture We're all behind you, and believe what Avid is doing will be the ruin of Sibelius and a betrayal of the fine people who made it so successful. Don't stop pushing them to make this right. There has to be a way! edit for clarity. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Bruce Richardson - 20 Jul 06:10PM Hide picture What is lost in translation here is the fact that Sibelius is not like Media Composer or Pro Tools. While people do compose in those applications, their principal function is editing. Sibelius is not an editor, although it has editing functions. It is a composing tool. The number of developers who can actually wear both hats required to properly code such a tool are limited. AVID...this is the wrong decision. And you have very little time to correct it before the die is cast. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Bob Zawalich - 20 Jul 06:12PM Hide picture Thanks for trying, Ben! -- Bob Sib 1.2 - 7, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 4 G RAM. Year 2012. Save the Sibelius Development Team! Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Roy Moore - 20 Jul 06:19PM Hide picture Looks like Avid will take the revenue stream from Sibelius and keep it ticking over at minimum cost. -- Roy Moore Sib 7.1.2,Windows 7 SP 1 pro x64 8gb ram,2x quad core 2.5ghz , Audiophile 2496, JABB 3, GPO 4, Rock & Pop, Garritan Steinway, EWQLSO platinum Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by pianoleo - 20 Jul 06:35PM Hide picture Ben and Jonathan, thanks so much for your support. I remember speaking to one of you back in the Acorn days (at the age of 10!) and it's fantastic that you're still behind the users. Leo Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Peter McAleer - 20 Jul 06:47PM Hide picture We're all behind you Ben and Jonathan. Pleased don't give up. We won't. -- Peter McAleer: composer - choral director - teacher - Sibelius user Sibelius 7.1.2; iMac 3.1 quad + internal ssd; 12 gig memory; OS 10.7.4 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Greg Jones - 20 Jul 06:50PM Hide picture Ben and Jonathan, please keep up the good work! -Greg Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Ronald Pearl - 20 Jul 07:06PM Hide picture It must be hard to see this happening to your brainchild. We appreciate your efforts, truly. -- Ron Pearl 7.1.2 http://www.ronaldmpearl.com/ Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by RDill - 20 Jul 07:11PM Hide picture Well done for posting this message. Ric Lloyd Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Bob Morabito - 20 Jul 07:23PM Hide picture Thanks so much for Sibelius, and all your efforts, Ben and Jonathan. Please keep trying--we're ALL behind you-- SAVE SIBELIUS!!! Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Robert Puff - 20 Jul 07:59PM Hide picture Thank you Ben and Jonathan. I have reposted this link to the Finale Forum and also to my blog. If you feel that there is anything Sibelius users can do to further raise awareness of this issue, and/or increase your chances of re-acquiring Sibelius, please let us know. -- robert puff Mac OS X 10.6.8 | 2 x 2.26 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 11 GB 1066 MHz DDR3 ram Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by David O'Rourke - 20 Jul 09:09PM Hide picture Yes thank you Ben and Jonathan - compassion for and loyalty to your team separates you from the money hungry bean counters! Thanks again, David -- David O'Rourke iMac 2.93 GHz Intel Core i7, 8GB 1333 MHz DDR3 MacBook Pro, 2.2 Ghz Intel Core Duo, 2 GB 10.6.2 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 20 Jul 09:36PM (edited 20 Jul 10:41PM) Hide picture > What is lost in translation here is the fact that Sibelius is not like Media Composer or Pro Tools. > Sibelius is. . . [a composing tool]. > The number of developers who can actually wear both hats required to properly code such a tool are limited. I agree, although I'll never bet against the kind of creativity one can find amongst people on this crazy planet, especially amongst the engineering types. Anyhow, I don't disagree with your point here. What I think has been missing is that even if you do find a group of people with the unique combination of skills required to take over. They Cannot, Even On Their Best Day...DUPLICATE the work of the UK team. All that they can ever do is proceed in a fashion that’s governed by their own Styles, Sensibilities, and Creative Spirit. And obviously being a different assortment of programmers the collective group style which they develop over time will be completely their own, and not a linear continuation of what the UK team would be, or do. The Sibelius Software Development, is a CREATIVE EFFORT in my opinion. And I don’t see this point being acknowledged by AVID. If anything it’s ironic because they have plenty of flattering comments to make about how much they enjoy supplying creative people with the tools to create the world’s most beloved media. Yet they don’t seem to understand how delicate the balancing act of a creative group really is. To have Sibelius developed by a different group of programmers, makes as much sense to me as trying to take over the management for let’s say The Rolling Stones (or insert your favorite Band Name here); and then deciding to bench the lead figures, only to replace them with a group of well intentioned impersonators as a long term substitution for the real thing. This is a great idea, now that I think about it,. . . think of all the money you can save not having to pay Mick Jagger and the gang. You can still book concerts, and release records, and Never Ever Change the Bands NAME, an maybe if you’re really lucky nobody will notice. . . .Right ?? It’s obviously ridiculous, and there’s no concert promoters, or band managers who would even dream of trying a stunt like this. Because they all know that people want the REAL THING. They’d be far more likely to try and dig up Elvis Presely and prop him up on stage again, because some people will probably go for that. But they won’t take a Substitution as anything other than a quaint night out on the Las Vegas Strip where such things are readily acceptable during a night of drunkenness and nostalgic fancy. The fight for keeping Sibelius intact has to be centered on the core principles of CREATIVITY and ORIGINALITY. There’s a reason why the Great Composer of History didn’t try to finish each other’s work. . . it can’t be done. Beethoven had plenty of worthy successors, and they all knew they would be better off working on their on stuff rather than trying to push upon the world his unfinished 10th Symphony, (in a finished form, and as determined by whomever tried to pick up the task). Take this same logic into the fields of Art, Sculpture, Poetry, Philosophy, Literature, Architecture, and virtually any creative discipline you can think of, and the same results will apply. The creative force as it projects into the future is governed only by the background and conditioning of the individual who tries to wield such powers. You’ll likely come up with a few of your own ideas, but you’re not going to one up the person whom you're trying to copy. You’re probably not even going to produce a credible copy for that matter. One can learn to imitate styles if great effort is made, but this is rare and usually distinguishable by even an untrained eye. It's much more common that such efforts get ridiculed as a joke, for the many who have tried to pass off someone else style as their own. So I think the only point that users can press upon AVID is that fact that we know the difference. And will not except a departure from the Original, or Real Thing. And this is easy because we know who the responsible people are, and we know where they work. Look at the top of the Forum page, it says. . . Sibelius is AVID. WRONG. . . Sibelius is the result of a specific development team based in the UK, and of course it’s directed by Daniel Spreadbury’s vision of what the product can and should be. Let’s not get our FACTs Confused on this point. Take Care, Jim --- --- Sorry, Bruce. This turned into a little more than I originally thought, I certainly don’t mean for these comments to be directed at you personally. I actually need to more properly send these off to the AVID contact lists which are around. -- Also, to Ben & Jonathan Finn. I appreciate your comments on the forum here. I was hoping that something such as you mentioned was taking place. Please keep up your efforts, in this regard, there’s always room for opportunities as you well know, hopefully you don’t have to wait too long for them. But come they will, we just don’t know in what form yet. -- To any AVID representatives reading, I can’t persuade you with much, but I’ll say this. . . I’m buying a copy of Finale 2012 and I’ll send you my sales receipt if you want to see it. I first and foremost care about Music. . . After that I care about how the companies I try to support treat their employees, and conduct business in this world. . . At the moment you’re taking a huge risk in hedging your bets that this short term financial gain is going to result in a seamless continuation of the product line I choose to buy into. I don’t think that it will, for the reasons I’ve already outlined above. Your new team may be pretty good, but the product they develop will be of their own, and not properly Sibelius. I also hope that you have the good graces to rename it, and not try to pass it off as the original. Anyhow, you’re back on the list of having to win me back as a loyal and supportive customer. I won’t automatically buy into the next version of Sibelius unless I know it was developed by the group of people who worked on the version I currently own (ver. 6). I’d just as soon learn something else. At least in this fashion I give myself the option to support the lesser of two evils. I get to choose between Finale’s crappy UI, or AVID’s lack of awareness for what constitutes the efforts of a continued dedication towards the Sibelius Product Development. An impossible thought experiment given that you're looking at the Originators right in the eye. Or have you forgotten this, and perhaps are being distracted by the numbers which have shown up on your accounting sheets lately? In any event this approaches the shameful, and if you ever notice this yourself then you might start by issuing out a few apologies to the folks at the UK offices. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Maria Ljungdahl - 20 Jul 09:55PM Hide picture > > This turned into a little more than I originally thought, I certainly don’t mean for these comments to be directed at you personally. I actually need to more properly send these off to the AVID contact lists which are around. > Send away! It's a very very good text! Use it, and let other users use it. Please repost it on the campaign page or upcoming web page, with written permission that it can be copied, saved and reposted by anyone and the media. Or something. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Ed Masters - 20 Jul 11:03PM Hide picture Ben & Jonathan, thanks for your efforts working with Avid to buy-back Sibelius. I agree that Avid likely makes a reasonable profit with Sibelius. And combining that profit with cost savings in other areas, will make them reluctant to divest completely. Thus their desire to further reduce cost by off-shoring development activities. Sadly they are not unique with this approach (nor the consequences for impacted groups). In terms of Avid's interest, to realize the profit they expect, Sibelius will need to maintain a market leadership position. This is tough to do with new development resources and limited product/customer knowledge. What if your offer to Avid includes an OEM deal, where Sibelius UK is owned by Ben, Jonathan & investors, with a long-term OEM agreement that provides Avid distribution rights and pricing such that their profit goals are achieved while they step back from actual product development? An OEM relationship would provide Avid the opportunity for feature input and integration with their broader product line, while letting them more fully reduce development costs (versus off-shoring). I suspect there is a point of indifference for Avid where they really want the distribution rights and profit, without the burdened cost of developing product. Just not sure where that point is. Clearly they are in trouble and struggling. If Avid could realize some of the Sibelius profit without incurring all the development cost, that might help their bottom line and let Avid better focus on its core competencies. And this approach would provide the Sibelius group with one significant OEM customer and the opportunity to package other solutions for other market segments/partners. Just a thought if you're still considering alternatives. Again, thanks for your vision and realization of the current product, and willingness to go-to-bat to help Avid do the "right" thing. -Ed Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Alexis Cuadrado - 20 Jul 11:32PM (edited 21 Jul 12:29AM) Hide picture Thank you Ben and Jonathan! I still have hope that Avid execs will come to their senses. -- Alexis Cuadrado -MacBookPro7,1. Intel Core 2 Duo 2.4 GHz, 4 GB RAM OSX.6.6 -MacBook Intel Core 2 Duo 2.4 GHz, 2 GB RAM. OSX.5.4 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Jennifer Amaya - 20 Jul 11:47PM Hide picture Ben & Jonathan - Please keep trying. I was one of the lucky people who was able to work as an ambassador for you, with the good old team of wonderful people, back when it was just good, old "Sibelius." It was one of the greatest times of my life, not just because of the exceptional product, but because of all of the amazing, wonderful people I was able to work and interact with, and the great Sibelius users I was able to meet and help. I MISS THOSE GOOD OLD DAYS! I think a lot of us do. Your letter has completely made my day. Just the thought of you two stepping in and saving all of us from the inevitable future with Avid is enough for me to hang onto a thread of hope. From the inside, and as one of the newest educational dealers of the software, I'm very concerned about the lack of presence and support in the educational market. I know how strong that market was for us back in the days, and I know how hard the representatives worked, and how much they cared, to spread Sibelius out to the world. Not only did we lose a great team in London just recently, but every tie we had left to the education market has now been cut as well. What has happened (and what will probably continue to happen) is bigger and more detrimental than we think. Please, keep at it. Buy it back. Please. We all need to keep at it. With this new information from you, I feel a bit more empowered and hopeful. So THANK YOU - for such a wonderful product, but most importantly for caring about it and all of the great people who have worked so hard to keep it so wonderful. It's just such a great, great feeling to know that you still care so much about all of us and sibelius. You made my day! Thank you!! ~ Jenny Amaya Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Mary Elizabeth - 21 Jul 12:06AM Hide picture Ben and Jonathan Thank you for taking the time to post here and let us know about your efforts. Best wishes, ME -- Sib 7; MacBook Pro 17 in., OS X 10.7.3; 2.8 GHz, 4 GB RAM, 24 in. monitor, Oxygen 49, Wacom Intuos4; Year 2012. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Stephen Wrigley - 21 Jul 12:29AM Hide picture Great to see your comments on this forum, Ben and Jonathan. Perhaps, rather than buying it back, you should just start afresh with the London team. Although I can't think of one right now, there must be another Finnish composer who'd lend a name to it. In any case, many thanks for your efforts, keep up the pressure! Best regards Stephen Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Antonio Cafolla - 21 Jul 01:26AM Hide picture Avid will fail in the future market with a cheap cost cutting approach such as this - too many top level professionals and productions rely on Sibelius now. If they don't sell Sibelius back to the original owners Ben and Jonathan will re-employ the existing London team presently losing their jobs and develop a new product to compete with Sibelius.it's as simple as that. Antonio Cafolla Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Williams - 21 Jul 02:08AM (edited 21 Jul 02:10AM) Hide picture http://www.mi-pro.co.uk/news/read/finn-brothers-awarded-obe/012533 -- Derek Williams www.derekwilliams.net Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Kari Kuosmanen - 21 Jul 02:52AM Hide picture Thank you Ben! You have made a wonderful piece of work in Sibelius software -- Kari Kuosmanen Nuolihaukantie 2 A 64 SF 90250 Oulu Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Jesper Elén - 21 Jul 06:01AM Hide picture Thanks Jim, great post. : - ) Jesper Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Mike Lyons - 21 Jul 06:28AM Hide picture As someone who has just left the education market, I can tell you there are additional factors affecting not just Sibelius, but all notation software. Far too much emphasis is put on performaing and far too little on the actual theory at GCSE. At my last school, notation went even further onto the back burner as we, due to falling numbers, lost the academic A level and went to Music Technology where the sequencer is king. I know many other schools and colleges where this is also true. As with essay writing in English, notation is a dying discipline in Music. It's all about money. -- 1.8GHz PIII Desktop, 512MB 300GB Audigy 2 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Windows 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 450GB + 2TB HDD, Blu-Ray, Edirol SD-20, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Sib 6.2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Richard James - 21 Jul 08:29AM Hide picture Just wanted to add my support to everyone fighting for Sibelius' future. The point about a creative team is well-made. No-one else except the London team is in a position to really take Sibelius forward. Avid's decision was fantastically short-sighted. I hope the London team can stay in touch with each other for the time being and keep alive the hope of a resurrection of their joint work. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Tim Parkin - 21 Jul 08:49AM (edited 21 Jul 08:58AM) Hide picture Fantastic post by Ben & Jonathan which has my full support. Sibelius is unique, if Avid start to mess with it then I shall be forced to move elsewhere. Also, as a major Pro Tools user as well (ver 10.2) I may well decide to go elsewhere with that as well going forward. -- Tim Parkin Macbook Pro 2.66 GHz, 8 Gb RAM, OS 10.6.4, Sibelius 7 & Pro Tools 10.2, Kontakt 7 Complete + other NI Soundfonts, Ivory II Pianos, Omnisphere, Trillion, Garritan Personel Orchestra & Jazz & Big Band. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Bourgeois - 21 Jul 09:21AM Hide picture > As someone who has just left the education market, I can tell you there are additional factors affecting not just Sibelius, but all notation software. Far too much emphasis is put on performaing and far too little on the actual theory at GCSE. At my last school, notation went even further onto the back burner as we, due to falling numbers, lost the academic A level and went to Music Technology where the sequencer is king. I know many other schools and colleges where this is also true. As with essay writing in English, notation is a dying discipline in Music. It's all about money. > This is one of my chief concerns, All my working life I was in some form of Music Education, from teaching in school and university environments to being Musical Director of the National Youth Orchestra of Great britain. I have become increasingly appalled by the standards of musical literacy taught to students - not just at school level, but at university level too. The Sibelius team in Finsbury Park are all exceptionally well trained musicians in their own right as well as being exceptional programmers. They have set a high standard of musical literacy in Sibelius that is of paramount educational importance. I am terrified at the thought of young whiz-kid programmers with no musical literacy or background being brought in to take over the program. But this is just what you'd expect from a CEO who clearly can't tell an oboe from a semiquaver. Derek -- Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit - Intel Xeon@3.47 Ghz - 24GB RAM - NVidia Quadro 5000 with 6143 graphics memory - 3 TB hard disks (of which 2 TB SSD) Vienna Symphonic Library Special Edition plus full percussion library. East West QL Symphonic Orchestra and Choirs. Sibelius 7 Sounds. M-Box. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by James Fletcher - 21 Jul 09:55AM Hide picture Ben and Jonathan: Thank you. And please keep trying... Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Bill Holab - 21 Jul 10:17AM Hide picture Ben and Jonathan, It must be very sad to see this happen to your creation. The elegance and brilliance of this software is a marvel, and I live inside it some 12 hours every day, so that's not said lightly. But of course, it's a creation that needs nurturing and growth, and that's what we all fear. Avid is displaying corporate greed and shortsightedness, and our recourse as users is not to buy upgrades. They may hobble the product or render it less useful by adding features we don't need, or it may become bug-riddled due to the new engineers' work. We don't see a bright future. I am glad that you made an attempt to buy it back, and I sincerely wish there was a way we could help. I hope things won't be as bad as they seem right now, and thank you for your efforts and your wonderful creation. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Loch - 21 Jul 10:57AM Hide picture Great posts and great to hear from the Finn's and their efforts. But what I want to know now more than ever (given this confirmation of Avid's intent) is: WHY THE HECK HASN'T AVID POSTED ANY FEEDBACK CONCERNING THE FUTURE MAINTENANCE AND DEVELOPMENT OF THIS PRIZED PRODUCT OF THEIRS!!! IF IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO THEM, WHY THE SILENCE? WHY NOT CALM THE USER COMMUNITY'S FEARS IF THEY'RE OF GOOD INTENT? WHAT'S YOUR PLAN, AVID? YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT HERE READY TO JUMP SHIP AND YOU DON'T SAY A DARNED THING!!! SPEAK SOON OR WE'LL HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT FOR GOOD THE CONCLUSIONS MANY OF US HAVE BEEN SUSPECTING ALL ALONG. IF THERE'S GOOD REASON TO KEEP INVESTING TIME IN CONTINUED USE IF THIS PRODUCT, THEN TELL US. SPELL IT OUT. ENOUGH OF THESE ONE-LINER PRESS RELEASES! -- Loch VT Sibelius 7.1.2,Dell XPSL502X Laptop,64 bit,i5-2410M,6GBR,2.3GHz,Win7 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by bashkii - 21 Jul 12:54PM Hide picture I totally support "Loch"!! But hey! I predicted this 5 years ago or so.....it doesn't do any good to say it now,but many of us were VERY worried about Avid's purchase of Sibelius. Avid is notorious for its lack of courtesy and appropriate customer support, they were ,are and forever will be very cheap and extremely arrogant. And here you have it! Sibelius should have been kept in the hands of the creators...remember Apple?? well, it took its "father" to bring it back from the 10th level of hell, didn't it?? Avid will now place development people that know little about music notation, music and music performance and will slowly but securely transform Sibelius into a "what it could have been" type of software, much like "overture" became. Please let's all stand behind Derek Williams and the people that are doing great things to preserve OUR Sibelius. And that means the great team that made it possible. Because folks, great software is made out of great people. Al Bertrand (Bashkii) Barcelona -- Sibelius 7 iMac 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo OS X 10.7.1 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Mark Kramer - 21 Jul 04:00PM Hide picture Thank you for your original efforts to develop Sibelius and now to bring it back home. But most of all - thank you for the years of productivity and enjoyment. Sibelius has been the answer to a literal dream. Aside from their potentially abandoning new development of Sibelius, my concern is that AVID may tailor the program to serve a"dumbed down" market. In this case the TM could be retained by AVID, but the program engineered into a shadow of its former self. Alternatively, AVID could merge or sell itself. In either case Sibelius as we know and love it could disappear. Certainly if Daniel et. al. walks, support will likely evaporate. Ben, I do hope you and your brother are still around if the program finally comes up for sale. I wish a safe landing for all of your past beloved colleagues. Regards, Mark -- Mark Kramer, http://www.mark-kramer.com early adopter. [A] PC - v 7.1, PTHD3Acc PTv8.x, XPPro 32bit Q9650 quadcore(w/L775 chip Q43Intel MB/3 PCIslots for PTPCIHD)4gB RAM,3gHz,Midi over Lan.[B]FARM 1:Vista 64 bit,16gB RAM, 6 SATA II drives in a 2.66 quad PC i7-920. Dual Monitor KVM for computer A and C,D,E PCs aux outboard/ farms. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Mike Lyons - 21 Jul 04:44PM Hide picture I will hold my hand up and say that, since this problem with Avid was announced, I have tried other software. I have to say that none of it produced the results I can get with Sibelius. Some of it wouldn't even allow me to enter notes without going through some rigmarole or another. What could be simpler than typing the letter names on a keyboard? That was not achieved by some musically illiterate rock guitarist whose only thought was about performing, not about writing the notes down. Neither was it achieved by some nerdy geek programmer whose interest in music was only as a numbers game. It is a work of love and has been treated by such as its users. Along come Avid, notable spoilers, and lo and behold, the creators of this work of love are chucked in the bin. Does nobody remember the story of the goose that laid the golden eggs? RIP golden goose! -- 1.8GHz PIII Desktop, 512MB 300GB Audigy 2 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, Windows 7 Pro (x64), 8GB, 450GB + 2TB HDD, Blu-Ray, Edirol SD-20, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Sib 6.2 Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Andrew Pearson - 21 Jul 05:35PM Hide picture As a former employee of Sibelius and then Avid, I am appalled by the treatment meted out by Avid to its employees. Unfortunately, the Avid board doesn't realise, or chooses to ignore, the fact that Sibelius is foremost about the people who create the product rather than about the product itself although that is important. It seems that way of Avid is to break things and then try to put them back together but, alas, like Humpty Dumpty, once broken, it cannot be put back together. Sad day! Andrew Pearson, formerly Technical Support Manager, Sibelius Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by John Kline - 30 Jul 11:27PM Hide picture As another former employee of Sibelius - then Avid - I can only confirm what Andrew says. One of the first things that happened in the Sibelius US office back in late 2006 (just after the acquisition): reduction in health benefits. I think we all kind of realized at that time that things were going to go downhill - just a question of how long it would take to be fully consumed by corporate shenanigans and how long would the road to ruin actually be? Somehow I managed to survive through many rounds of layoffs - watching loads of great people either leave or get relieved. But survival was about all it was in the end. Not the feelings of delight and passion of working for Sibelius in the time before Avid. I finally left in 2010 and how great it felt to be out of Avid! So sad that a great company and a great product is seeing its final days. But that is the way of the world. Circle of life you know. Death, yes. But also renewal and opportunity. Its time for some new enterprising company or individual to take music creation tools to the next level. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Chris Wimlett - 21 Jul 05:38PM Hide picture Mike, Simple entry in Finale allows you to type in the letter names and is very similar to keyboard entry in Sibelius (I'm not sure who got there first). I agree that Sibelius is more refined in many ways, but Finale is by no means as bad as Avid's advertising makes out. I wouldn't like to go back to Finale, but will do if attempts to save Sibelius from Avid fail. -- Sibelius 7.1, 6.2.0, Logic 9, Cubase 6, Mac OS X 10.7.3, iMac 3.06 Ghz, 4Gb RAM, Apogee Duet, Yamaha S90 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Monroe Quinn - 21 Jul 05:41PM Hide picture Dear Mr. Finn, Thank you for creating an exceptional notation program, and thank you for your honesty with it's user community. You and Sibelius are truly a class act. Sincerely, Monroe -- Sibelius 7.1.2 iMac OS 10.7.3 8GB RAM http://www.monroequinn.com/ Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Michael Rivers - 21 Jul 08:41PM Hide picture Even if Avid and Sibelius go under, it doesn't mean that my current copy of Sibelius will stop working. I'll keep using it as long as it works on whatever operating system I have. As a long-time Finale owner who switched, I will only go back to Finale when I absolutely have to. Ben & Jonathan, thanks for doing the right thing in offering to buy back the software and for letting us know that at least some people are trying to do the right thing. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Maria Ljungdahl - 21 Jul 09:22PM (edited 21 Jul 09:25PM) Hide picture > Even if Avid and Sibelius go under, it doesn't mean that my current copy of Sibelius will stop working. I remember that I have read some statement about registration procedures for Sibelius licenses, maybe in a forum question, or in the manual, that users should not fear what happens to their copies of the program if Sibelius is shut down (as a company, or discontinued as a product), because before they turn off the servers and the light in the office, the Sibelius support staff will make all copies free - all serial numbers of the software free to install and use anywhere forever. I wonder if that old promise from Sibelius management, developers, support, whoever-said-it, is something the current owner and management at Avid is prepared to fulfill, should they decide that the product is not worth developing and marketing any more? http://www.facebook.com/SaveSibelius http://www.facebook.com/groups/24163866631/ -- http://swansofsibelius.blogspot.com/ Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Williams - 21 Jul 09:50PM Hide picture https://www.facebook.com/SaveSibelius -- Derek Williams www.derekwilliams.net Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Maria Ljungdahl - 21 Jul 10:17PM Hide picture Norman Lebrecht, blog report directly from this very chat page! http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2012/07/sibelius-closure-founders-buyback-offer-rebuffed.html Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Richard Vitale - 22 Jul 12:43AM Hide picture Dear Ben & Jonathan, Thank you for (twice) trying to buy back this most amazing application that has been such a great part of your life and ours. The offer has been made and we are all very grateful that you have apprised us of the situation. We still hope and wish you both the best of luck :-) -- Richie Vitale-Sib 7.1.2 User iMac 2.66 Ghz Intel/Lion 4 GB RAM http://www.youtube.com/user/richievitale Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Bob Morabito - 22 Jul 01:24AM (edited 22 Jul 01:36AM) Hide picture > Ever since then we have been quietly trying to do everything we can to change this situation, including twice offering to buy Sibelius back from Avid. However, Avid has declined. > Ben & Jonathan Finn > Sibelius founders Thanks so much again for creating Sibelius, and trying to buy it back. Why wont you sell Sibelius, Mr. Greenfield? Attachment Picture 338.png (92K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Jesper Elén - 22 Jul 06:16AM Hide picture Maybe we should try reversed psychology, like with children, please mr Greenfield, don't sell Sibelius… "Nobody is going to tell me what to do, I'm selling Sibelius" ; - ) Jesper Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Bob Morabito - 22 Jul 07:14AM Hide picture You just might be on to something Jesper:) Bob PS What I feel will work is to stop all upgrades and purchases of Sib, so that NO money is coming in to Avid via Sib....between that and the headaches caused by all our loyal users (THANK YOU!!), posting, and spreading the word, I think then Greenfield would be forced to jump at the Finn's offer... Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Jesper Elén - 22 Jul 07:27AM Hide picture I just wished there was a way to let all (1/2 million) Sibelius users know about what's happening and not just the ones on the forums. Maybe some fired employee could mail us a registered user list. Jesper Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Bob Morabito - 22 Jul 07:36AM Hide picture Thats a very good idea..does anyone know more and other ways to find this out--the names of all the registered Sibelius users? Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Charles Mead - 22 Jul 07:45AM Hide picture -- Sibelius 6.2, MacbookPro, OS X7.4 -- moving to Sibelius 7.1 and VSL but not there yet Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Charles Mead - 22 Jul 07:48AM Hide picture I agree -- excellent idea. REALITY CHECK: Do we know for certain that employees in the London office have been fired by Avid? Do we know that -- irrespective of Avid's formal position and possible (as yet) inaction wrt the London employees -- whether any of the development or support teams have left proactively in the face of the drama that has unfolded over the past several weeks? charlie -- Sibelius 6.2, MacbookPro, OS X7.4 -- moving to Sibelius 7.1 and VSL but not there yet Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Chris Wimlett - 22 Jul 10:53AM Hide picture Many thanks for trying to rescue Sibelius, Ben and Jonathan. Perhaps you and Daniel could get together with all your loyal Sibelius users to develop new and even better notation software. You could even call it Rautavaara, though I guess that wouldn't be so easy to pronounce. -- Sibelius 7.1, 6.2.0, Logic 9, Cubase 6, Mac OS X 10.7.3, iMac 3.06 Ghz, 4Gb RAM, Apogee Duet, Yamaha S90 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Philip R - 22 Jul 12:00PM (edited 22 Jul 12:00PM) Hide picture Sent this e-mail and also posted on the Avid community page. Hoping for the best. Philip Dear Messrs. Greenfield, Gahagan, and Kloiber: I am a professional composer, music copyist, orchestrator, arranger, and teacher. I use Sibelius extensively in my work, and often give classes and lectures on how to use the software. The reason Sibelius has grown to be such a powerful and admired tool is because of the care and quality its development team put into every detail of the program. Led by Daniel Spreadbury and imbued with the spirit of the founding Finn brothers, Sibelius users know, and have come to expect from the software, uncompromising technical detail married with an understanding of what it means to be a creative musician. This means that Sibelius must not only be powerful, but it must be intuitive. This is not easy to accomplish, and it takes some real special people to pull off this amazing feat. A Sibelius product without this team of talented individuals behind it is not Sibelius at all. If you think that Sibelius can continue to be a market leader without this dedicated team, you are mistaken. One only has to look no farther than Apple during the non-Steve Jobs years to see what happens when a company abandons its core DNA. Now it has been made public that, in recent days, Ben and Jonathan Finn twice offered to buy Sibelius from Avid, and twice Avid has refused. I hope that you will reconsider and accept their offer, because your plan to continue Sibelius without its core team will very likely be a financial loser for you, and in a couple years you'll be wishing you had accepted the Finns' offer before you make Sibelius worthless to everyone. -- Sib 7.1.2 Mac 10.6.8 Intel 2 x 2.8 GHz Quad-Core, 14 GB RAM Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Jesper Elén - 22 Jul 12:18PM Hide picture Excellent written Philip. Jesper Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Bob Porter - 22 Jul 02:01PM Hide picture As useful as an email list of Sibelius users might be, obtainning that list is probably illegal. And using it might also be a problem. -- Bob Porter Sibelius 7.1.2,i3 2.4 ghz,W7 64 bit,8GB 1060,laptop Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Jesper Elén - 22 Jul 02:19PM Hide picture Yes, we don't wan't to cause any more trouble for our friends in London, let's just hope that all Sibelius users will find out anyway. Jesper Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 22 Jul 05:13PM (edited 22 Jul 07:14PM) Hide picture > As useful as an email list of Sibelius users might be, obtaining that list is probably illegal. And using it might also be a problem. > Yes, I think so too. Some people around here may remember what happened when Roman Dunn sent out some emails concerning his Plugins. Some guy got worked up for having received one unsolicited, and then started threatening some sort of legal action against Roman for how he compiled his email list. He was even trying to drag Sibelius into it somehow, and Daniel had to intervene, and Roman stopped participating in this Forum for Months,... and it turned into quite the event. Looking back from today’s perspective, Those Were The Good Old Days,… eh Daniel. -- I think you should consider sending out newsletters, from the official Save Sibelius sites that have been created. . . Maybe to Music Unions, and Music Schools, Local Press agencies, ect. . . maybe even worth contacting performance venues, because news might spread during coffee break time. Heck maybe even send them to Race Tracks, Bars, and Strip Clubs (. . .musicians have their hobbies). I’m afraid that given the specialized product, those who are most likely to act, probably already know about the news, because of their engagement with the product and notation community,. . . even the Finale users discuss this topic so it’s getting around. But it’s hard to determine what the impact of the reaction is. About the only thing I think is important is to keep letting AVID know that we won’t forget, and that we’re willing to back up our opinions with definite hesitancy towards future product support. . . and continue our effort to restore things to where they should be. . . The UK Developers working on the product, in their own country. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Rob Catlender - 22 Jul 03:34PM (edited 22 Jul 03:35PM) Hide picture Very much agreed, Philip! -- www.bigbandmusic.com Sib 7.1 Gold/JABB3 Mac Pro 2x 3GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon 9GB RAM OS:Lion 10.7.3 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Richard Vitale - 22 Jul 07:10PM (edited 22 Jul 07:35PM) Hide picture First of all, I big thanks to the Finn brothers for posting here. I know many of your have been emailing the AVID execs to release Sibelius to an interested third-party (such as the Finns). To make emailing easier, a group email can be used, the list is on the "Save Sibelius" FB site "About" link up top as well as here: chris.gahagan@avid.com gary.greenfield@avid.com martin.kloiber@avid.com dana.ruzicka@avid.com ian.bruce@avid.com bill.brown@avid.com jason.burke@avid.com jason.duva@avid.com glover.lawrence@avid.com ed.raine@avid.com ken.sexton@avid.com jodi.sweeney@avid.com jim.vedda@avid.com bruce.yaung@avid.com Derek and I will continue to update the list, so special thanks to Bob Morabito and others who have supplied us with names and email addresses on this website :-) There are many users of Sibelius that do not post on the Chat Line here, but you may know personally. If you would copy & paste the list of Avid execs above in a group email to your friends and ask them to send an email to those executives and to "Like" the Save Sibelius site, that would be beneficial to our cause. I have abstained from writing a "sample" letter as I know the people on this Chat Line are well-read and would like to express their personal opinions, but for the use of emailing my friends and just to make it as easy as possible for a high-volume of emails to be sent, I've made a brief sample letter that can be edited in any way for us to email to Sibelius friends that don't frequent the Chat Line here: --- Subject Line: Please Save Sibelius Hello Avid employees, I recently heard the UK Office of Sibelius is being closed and that Sibelius founders Ben & Jonathan Finn, twice tried to buy back Sibelius from Avid. Without the UK Office and the developers’ understanding of its inner workings and their customer's needs, the ability for further progress of Sebelius will halt and I will not buy a future version. Please sell Sibelius back to the people who care about it and will further its development. Your Signature --- Thank you all for your continued help! -- Richie Vitale-Sib 7.1.2 User iMac 2.66 Ghz Intel/Lion 4 GB RAM http://www.youtube.com/user/richievitale Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Gerhard Torges - 22 Jul 08:16PM Hide picture I dearly hope this all will turn out the best, and that Sibelius™ will be developed by the London team again! Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Mike P. - 23 Jul 06:48AM Hide picture I recognize the difficulty of spreading news of the current disastrous state of affairs using a list of Sibelius users but wonder if the UK news media would be interested in communicating the story to a broader audience, considering the Sibelius office was located in the UK and that is where the Finn brothers received OBEs for their efforts. Mike P. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Laurence Payne - 23 Jul 10:23AM Hide picture We've had a column in "The Times". Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Tony Wakefield - 23 Jul 12:09PM Hide picture There is another alternative - if Daniel agrees. The lack of interim news from both Sibelius and Avid could indeed suggest that Sibelius (Daniel et al) and Avid are participating in interesting talks. Don`t forget that the original `buy out` might have excluded one or two clauses, and this may be in the process of being discussed at present. Avid could easily suggest that the whole London staff up and away across the pond. Avid could be tempting Daniel with double (triple, quad) salary to move the UK development across lock stock and barrel. Additional salary incentives could also be very tempting. I really don`t see at present, in spite of many good suggestions still being thought of to save Sibelius, that Avid will capitulate, sadly. I hope they do, but the company may be attempting to expand into many more avenues other than music. I heard this philosophy on money talk on BBC radio - the bigger a company becomes, the more efficient it can be run with less staff, so enhancing profit to sky high figures, which in turn attracts central governments who allow all kinds of relaxations, such as less tax to be paid. It`s an ever `increasing` circle. The pics in this mornings papers show all the enormously magnificent yachts that are starting to dock in the Thames, where it`s only a few minutes to Friday`s opening ceremony. Yachts? They are more like small ocean going liners with helipads at the rear, and surrounded by many moored up smaller `to and fro` vessels to alight from. One of MicroSoft`s bosses is one of them. Come to think of it, I`m a little surprised MS hasn`t done a deal with S!! - "never a true word . . . . . . . ?" LONG LIVE SIBELIUS! Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Jo Melville - 23 Jul 12:24PM Hide picture Well said, Anthony, Long live Sibelius! Avid's marketing strategy indicates that it intends to withdraw from the notational side of music. Presumably all those participating in the Promenade Concerts have no need of scores? May there be a concerted effort on the part of everyone who uses Sibelius software to get together and find a solution. Musicians need music. That's the score! Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Williams - 23 Jul 01:51PM (edited 23 Jul 01:52PM) Hide picture Avid have broken cover. For a gander at the latest in corporate double-speak, jargon and blandishment, go to: http://community.avid.com/blogs/avid/archive/2012/07/23/avids-commitment-to-sibelius.aspx There you can read all about Avid's "Commitment to Sibelius" Fine words? Maybe. But by their deeds shall ye know them. -- Derek Williams www.derekwilliams.net Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by sakari lindhen - 23 Jul 02:34PM Hide picture It's not fine words. It is unintelligible jargon and meaningless NewSpeak(tm). Have they understood that the combined development team in Cali must include expert engravers, notators, and musicians, otherwise it is useless to our community? Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Jo Melville - 23 Jul 02:47PM Hide picture Anyone know where I can obtain a copy of Sibelius 6? Avid's statement is meaningless. Any confidence in the product's future has gone. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Bob Morabito - 23 Jul 03:11PM Hide picture A quote comes to mind: "Id wipe my bottom with that statement, but its not even of worth to do that". It bothers me that both this, and the previous statement before by Avid take the Sibelius user, and community as a bunch of fools, who'll swallow ANYTHING they say... SAVE SIBELIUS!! Avid SELL Sibelius!! Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Bob Morabito - 23 Jul 03:30PM Hide picture Hey Greenfield--why don't you try it? Stop ruining Sib, and let the FInns buy it!! SAVE SIBELIUS!! Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by jasper. franklin - 23 Jul 03:58PM Hide picture Thank you Ben + Jonathan We need your help. I still have my Acorn and Sib, Both still working great, They where the days,any problem just phone up and get a Finn to help you.Now when you buy Sibelius its full of bugs you have to get online to get an update Its so hard to get on the phone I found it very hard, at 83yrs old. Thanks Jasper Franklin -- Jasper Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Williams - 24 Jul 01:42AM Hide picture After Sibelius has been wrest loose from Avid, any new board running Sibelius should include at least one User member and at least one Developer member. Sibelius has been placed at risk of extinction for reasons entirely unconnected with either its developers or its users. This can never be allowed to happen again, where the livelihoods of so many people become the plaything of corporate manoeuvring. -- Derek Williams www.derekwilliams.net Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Bob Morabito - 24 Jul 12:02PM Hide picture EXCELLENT point Derek! > After Sibelius has been wrest loose from Avid, any > new board running Sibelius should include at least one User member > and at least one Developer member. > > Sibelius has been placed at risk of extinction for reasons > entirely unconnected with either its developers or its users. > This can never be allowed to happen again, where the livelihoods > of so many people become the plaything of corporate manoeuvring. > > -- > Derek Williams > > www.derekwilliams.net Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Alan Hilton - 24 Jul 03:51PM Hide picture Nobody needs to try some other product if they have already preferred Sibelius. Just use the latest version you can and never buy an upgrade. Versions 6 and 7 already do pretty well everything a composer needs. If operating systems change out of all recognition (will they?) there might be pressure to switch to a new compatible version but only if you give up your old computer (or it gives up on you). In the meantime sales of a new version 8 will not flourish. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Williams - 24 Jul 05:30PM Hide picture Is this the country to be entrusted with the care of Sibelius? Where the composer of the score for Brokeback Mountain would be imprisoned? http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/world/europe/ukraine-bill-proposes-prison-for-positive-gay-depictions.html?_r=1&emc=tnt&tntemail1=y -- Derek Williams www.derekwilliams.net Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Justin at Sibelius - 24 Jul 11:42PM Hide picture Why the heck is that relevant Derek? -- Justin Tokke Composer, Trombonist http://www.justintokke.com>JustinTokke.com Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Peter Roos - 25 Jul 01:34AM Hide picture > Why the heck is that relevant Derek? > > -- > Justin Tokke > Composer, Trombonist > http://www.justintokke.com>JustinTokke.com Well, there were rumors initially that the coding might be transitioned to the Ukraine. That appears to be no longer the case; the current 'thinking' is that the coding will be transitioned to Daly City, CA, to be integrated with Avid's professional audio division. But let's not get sidetracked; a new website was launched today; I'll start a separate thread on that so it will receive appropriate attention and not get buried. -- Peter Roos www.summeroflovemusic.com IMDb: www.imdb.com/name/nm2039241 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by James - 25 Jul 02:27AM (edited 25 Jul 02:29AM) Hide picture If they are hell bent on moving Sib development to California they should at least offer to move members of the London team. I don't know if any of the British Sib people would be willing or able to relocate but they should be given the offer. This is the very least management can do if they insist on this very bad decision. On the other hand, this kind of work can be done by telecommute. So why does it matter WHERE the work is done. (Sigh.) -- Mac OS 10.6.8 Sibelius 6.2 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Justin at Sibelius - 25 Jul 02:33AM Hide picture Because London is a very expensive city to work in. If they hire developers in a cheaper city they don't have to pay them as much since the cost of living isn't as high. If there's any cost-saving to be made, THAT is where Avid will reap the benefits. -- Justin Tokke Composer, Trombonist http://www.justintokke.com>JustinTokke.com Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by James - 25 Jul 02:47AM Hide picture If you go to this web site http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp you will see that it shows the cost of living indices for San Jose, CA, USA and London, UK are identical. (It doesn't list Daly City, CA.) We're not talking much difference in the cost of living. The point is the people are important, not the place. And in a web connected world, place is relatively unimportant. -- Mac OS 10.6.8 Sibelius 6.2 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Williams - 25 Jul 05:28AM Hide picture Dear Sibelians To understand the full story behind Avid's shutdown of Sibelius UK, and to take such action as you see fit, please visit your very own, brand new website we have launched today in order to help bring focus to this crisis: http://www.sibeliususers.org The Sibelius Users website includes a full background, financials on Avid, a Change.Org petition, links to our Facebook 'Save Sibelius' page, and the ability to send an email instantly to all the decision makers at Avid with a single click. Also provided are Avid media sites, and local fax numbers and physical addresses for Avid offices worldwide. We implore you to take whatever action you feel able to. Every click helps. Please share the Website, the Facebook page and the Petition far and wide. Only you can stop this shutdown from occurring, by the strength of your arguments and the sheer strength of your numbers. With nearly half a million users worldwide, our Sibelius community has the power to make Avid sit up and listen to us. -- Derek Williams www.derekwilliams.net Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Ronald Pearl - 25 Jul 11:56AM Hide picture > Because London is a very expensive city to work in. If they hire developers in a cheaper city they don't have to pay them as much since the cost of living isn't as high. If there's any cost-saving to be made, THAT is where Avid will reap the benefits. > > -- > Justin Tokke > Composer, Trombonist > http://www.justintokke.com>JustinTokke.com True, but Daly City is just south of San Francisco, which is one of the most expensive areas in the US. Are there so many people in London, and are they paying them that much more that it justifies the move? Doubtful. -- Ron Pearl 7.1.2 http://www.ronaldmpearl.com/ Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by John Murdoch - 25 Jul 09:08PM Hide picture I think it's worth mentioning that Martin Klober of Avid stated that their plan was to combine development of Sibelius with their "other" audio products in California. I am not sure--especially given that ProTools development has been farmed out to a firm in the Ukraine--that that means that development of Sibelius will happen in California. It might only mean that product management would happen in California--but coding would happen with a third-party contractor. This makes perfect sense--if you are on the management team of a corporation that is led by a host of seasoned software executives, without a single musician in the bunch. -- Sibelius 2 - 7.1 | Hauptwerk 4 Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit Intel i5 quad CPU, 8 GB RAM | M-Audio Fast Track C600 Keurig B60 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Williams - 26 Jul 03:03AM (edited 26 Jul 04:56AM) Hide picture There is no way Sibelius is going to California. While integration with ProTools might be tinkered with there, it's perfectly obvious that the outsourcing is going to the Ukraine. Read Avid's own words at http://www.globallogic.com/globallogic-and-avid-technology-to-expand-product-engineering-lab-in-kyiv-ukraine.html Even if it were going to California, that still makes no sense whatsoever. The UK team already knows the product inside out. -- Derek Williams www.derekwilliams.net Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Williams - 26 Jul 03:01PM (edited 27 Jul 08:03AM) Hide picture Sure sign of truth - they pulled the link. *EDIT 27JUL2012 - it's back up again -- Derek Williams www.derekwilliams.net Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Jody Hughes - 26 Jul 03:06PM Hide picture it's here: http://www.globallogic.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=532 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Andrew Moschou - 01 Aug 04:12AM Hide picture Ben and Jonathan Finn and the old Sibelius team, thank you excessively for your efforts. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by pacome - 06 Aug 03:06PM Hide picture one thing is sure ! sibelius without the london office ! i will not by anymore ! sibelius point ! Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Gerhard Richter - 13 Aug 05:51AM (edited 14 Aug 06:58PM) Hide picture The same is true for me: I have no more confidence - and I will buy no more update version under these circumstances. Gerhard Sib 7/Sib-user since version 1.2 > > one thing is sure ! > sibelius without the london office ! > i will not by anymore ! sibelius > point ! > -- Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by G Mulhall - 09 Aug 05:49PM Hide picture Out with Avid & back with Ben & Jonathan. It must be heartbreaking to see something you've created which was nothing short of beautiful, be destroyed by someone else. > Ben and Jonathan Finn and the old Sibelius team, thank you excessively for your efforts. Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Sergio Borrero - 11 Aug 07:46PM Hide picture I was very skeptical when Avid bought Sibelius. My fears came through :-( Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Andreas Beschorner - 17 Aug 09:05AM Hide picture It is incredible what is going on here, not only that AVID first started buying all kinds of software, but that it now realizes it has succeeded in total mismanagement and answers with such stupid actions. Both, not wanting to sell back Sibelius or even thinking about discontinuing it or dislocating development and customer service as well as sacking Daniel Spreadbury and his incredible team is just infamy and blasphemy. Regards, Andy Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Roy Moore - 17 Aug 09:22AM Hide picture http://www.sibeliususers.org/?page_id=1&title=news -- Roy Moore Sib 7.1.2,Windows 7 SP 1 pro x64 8gb ram,2x quad core 2.5ghz , Audiophile 2496, JABB 3, GPO 4, Rock & Pop, Garritan Steinway, EWQLSO platinum Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Williams - 19 Aug 10:33PM (edited 19 Aug 10:43PM) Hide picture UKRAINE CONFIRMED FOR SIBELIUS http://www.globallogic.com.ua/?option=com_jsjobs&view=jobposting&layout=viewjob&Itemid=6&jobcat=62&jobid=50961 Please send your new protest emails to jobs.ua@globallogic.com On http://community.avid.com/blogs/avid/archive/2012/07/23/avids-commitment-to-sibelius.aspx, Martin Kloiber tried to make Sibelius Users believe that Sibelius development would move to California "to be more closely integrated...". At best, this can only be seen as disingenuously mendacious, as you will see revealed by the job advertisements now up in Ukraine, specifically seeking three C++ developers for Sibelius. Note the following: 1) Only 3 jobs are being advertised, so it's less than 3rd of the UK team 2) It could take 2-3 months to find people, plus up to 6 months for them to become in any way productive 3) Given the shortage of highly talented engineers, and the difficulty they would have in mastering the code base, it makes the dismissal of the existing team which already had all the necessary attributes clearly insane. Please reply to Global Logic at jobs.ua@globallogic.com and tell them what you think of Avid's axing of the UK development team and headquarters. Does this action really reflect their self-proclaimed "commitment to Sibelius"? If you feel motivated enough to take further action still, please browse the websites below: -- Derek Williams www.sibeliususers.org www.savesibelius.com Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Williams - 22 Aug 02:28AM (edited 22 Aug 02:47AM) Hide picture THE SECOND WAVE Step 1: Resend all the emails you already sent Step 2: Time to Phone and Fax in your protest! You can choose your country and locale from the list below, and give Avid a call to let them know your feelings: NORTH AMERICA California: Burbank Tel: 818 557 2520 Fax: 818 557 2558 Daly City Tel: 650 731 6300 Fax: 650 731 6399 Mountain View Tel: 650-526-1600 Fax: 650-526-1601 Massachusetts Tel: 978 640 6789 Fax: 978 640 3366 New York Tel: 212 983 2424 Fax: 212 983 8718 or 212 983 9770 Washington D.C. Tel: 202 756 7724 or 800 497 AVID Fax: 202-318-4593 Wisconsin Tel: 608 288 5100 Fax: 608 288 5195 CANADA Montreal Tel: 514 845 1636 Fax: 514 845 5676 Toronto Tel: 416 203 6800 Fax: 416 203 6572 Edmonton Tel: 780-448-9914 EUROPE Belgium Tel: +32 2 7092028 Fax: +32 2 7092222 Denmark Tel: + 45 39 55 99 99 Fax: + 45 39 55 99 90 Germany Cologne Tel: +49-221-6500-4210 Fax: +49-221-6500-4211 München #1 Tel: +49 (0) 89 50 20 6-0 Fax: +49 (0) 89 50 20 61 40 München #2 Tel.: +49 89 50206404 Fax: +49 89 50206199 Ireland Tel: + 353 1 207 8200 Fax: + 353 1 295 0079 Netherlands Tel: + 31 35 625 00 80 Fax: + 31 35 625 00 90 Norway Tel: +47 67 52 99 30 Fax: +47 67 52 99 31 Support: +47 815 2 2843 Russia Tel: +7 495 662 6390 Finland Tel: + 358 9 2290160 Fax: + 358 9 22901620 France Tel: + 33 1 41 49 40 00 Fax: + 33 1 47 57 15 27 Spain Tel: +34 91 762 86 00 Fax: +34 91 183 66 50 Sweden Stockholm Tel: + 46 8 442 55 70 Fax:: + 46 8 442 55 87 Malmö Tel: + 46 40 667 55 70 Fax: + 46 40 667 5577 United Arab Emirates Tel: +971 4 361 6260 Fax: +971 4 366 1055 United Kingdom Tel: + 44 175 365 5999 Fax: + 44 175 365 4999 ASIA China Tel: +86 10 6709 6116 Fax: +86 10 6709 6113 Hong-Kong Tel: (852) 3973 8503 Fax: (852) 3973 8589 Japan Tel: + 81 3 3505 7937 Fax: + 81 3 3505 7938 India Tel: +91 22 66238807 Korea Tel: + 822 782 4210 Fax: + 822 782 4214 Singapore Tel: +65 6476 7666 Fax: +65 6475 7666 For the complete list of physical addresses, please visit http://www.avid.com/us/about-avid/office-locations -- Derek Williams www.sibeliususers.org www.savesibelius.com Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by David Rance - 22 Aug 07:08AM Hide picture I have been out of touch with this forum for some time but it doesn't mean that I'm not still using Sibelius. The announcement today that there is a 25% discount on upgrading to Sibelius 7 (I'm still using Sibelius 6.2) made me wonder what the speculation was about the possibilities of Sibelius 8. To say that I am devastated is an understatement. I doubt that there is anything that I can say that has not already been said, but I'm just adding my voice of discontent to the thousands of others worldwide. I need now to go and digest this news.... David -- Organist/choirmaster, etc. Sib. 6.2 Windows XP, 3Ghz, 2Gb RAM Creative Sound Blaster Laptop Vista Intel Core 2 Duo, 2Ghz, 2Gb RAM Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Williams - 22 Aug 05:46PM (edited 22 Aug 06:01PM) Hide picture David, before the present team left, there will have been code ready to go for the next version (8), but it will be an untested, slim version, and without the team there, it will be full of bugs that no-one will know how to fix. Remember how shaky release 1 of Sibelius 7.0 was, and that was with the present team actually there to fix bugs as they were reported. Within about a month, we had 7.1.2 which is now very stable and fast again. This will not be the case any more. The Ukraine team with only 3 programmers on board (the existing UK team was 15 staff) will take a year just to get their heads round Sibelius's millions of lines of C++ code, with zero historical connection with the product. What's more the Ukrainian job ads for these developers only went up last week and there have been no replacements appointed yet. Worse still, expertise in music was the least important part of the job specification, being placed last on the list. Therefore after version 8, there will be no development for at least 2 years, if at all, because by then Avid itself is likely to be toast. A company with management which is that incompetent cannot be expected to last much longer, especially if you look at the trajectory of its share price: $70 in 2006 divided itself by 10 to $7 this July. In as many years, Avid's share value may well be 70 cents. That is why there is only one option: Avid must sell Sibelius before confidence in the application is irreversibly destroyed. -- Derek Williams www.derekwilliams.net Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by David Rance - 23 Aug 07:34PM Hide picture Derek, I totally agree with all that you say. That fact that Sibelius was conceived by two chaps who were themselves musicians was, in my view, the secret of its success. Of course, there have been many other features of the whole setup which have been just as important, notably the willingness to listen to customers and implement what we asked for. In particular, there was the human interface known as Daniel Spreadbury, who was outstanding in the realm of PR for the company, and you could be sure that if you asked a question, Daniel would answer you and/or follow up the problem. It is such a shame that the Finns sold out to an international organisation. Of course, I don't know the reasons why this happened but they must have been compelling for the Finns. But at the time my heart sank (as, probably, did many others) because I guessed what would become the eventual outcome. Am I being wise after the event? No, because I've seen it happen so many times before. I can't see Avid selling it back to the Finns while Sibelius is still making money for them. But it won't for much longer if it is in the hands of three Ukranian programmers inexperienced in music software. All we can hope for is that the receivers will be called in sooner rather than later and that Sibelius *has* to be sold off. I didn't upgrade to Sib. 7 simply because of the teething troubles and by the time I got round to looking at it again it was nearly time for version 8 to be announced. (I sort of lost touch with this forum whan Sibeliusmusic was closed down.) Bearing in mind that one could probably upgrade from 6 to 8 for the same price as 7 to 8 I didn't see the point in spending the extra. (OK, I'm a cheapskate but in my defence I am an old age pensioner!) When I got the email from Avid yesterday announcing a 25% reduction in the price of 7, I thought aha, version 8 is on its way. So I looked on this site to see what the speculation was and I was aghast to hear the news. Now I'm in a quandary. Should I take advantage of this upgrade to version 7 and put the money in the pockets of Avid? It sticks in the throat to do this, but I think it's probably the only safe way forward. Oh boy, what a situation to have to mull over while one is on holiday! David (writing from France) -- Organist/choirmaster, etc. Sib. 6.2 Windows XP, 3Ghz, 2Gb RAM Creative Sound Blaster Laptop Vista Intel Core 2 Duo, 2Ghz, 2Gb RAM Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Derek Williams - 24 Aug 05:11AM (edited 24 Aug 05:12AM) Hide picture Thanks David for your considered response. If I were you, I would bite the bullet and take advantage of the Sibelius 7 upgrade discount as soon as possible. Sibelius 8 is unlikely to appear before 2013, so as to give Avid time to make it look as though the "new" team created what is actually already sitting in the Out Tray, left as a parting gift by the sacked development team whose redundancy agreements gag them. A word of caution though, you'll need to approach version 7 with time on your hands and an open mind. Forget the old menu driven interface, and look at the new Sibelius as though you're seeing it for the first time and it should slowly dawn on you how much more logically constructed Sibelius has become. Once you're over the Ribbon speed hump and start drilling down, you'll discover all your old favourite features and shortcuts are still there just as before, but far more accessible and intuitively positioned. Although some of the old bugbears like "cannot paste into a tuplet" are still there, on the plus side, the number of improvements is vast. To be fair, there's only so much you can pack into a single release, and just the conversion into 64 bit code required a total rebuild of the entire application. Now, if you feel up to becoming a bit of an activist with us, there is a website and Facebook page set up to try and rescue Sibelius from Avid before it's too late. Links are below my name. -- Derek Williams www.sibeliususers.org www.savesibelius.com Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Graham Ranft - 04 Nov 11:44PM Hide picture one year + on....... > Sibelius 8 is unlikely to appear before 2013, so as to give Avid time to make it look as though the "new" team created what is actually already sitting in the Out Tray, left as a parting gift by the sacked development team whose redundancy agreements gag them. > > A word of caution though, you'll need to approach version 7 with time on your hands and an open mind. Forget the old menu driven interface, and look at the new Sibelius as though you're seeing it for the first time and it should slowly dawn on you how much more logically constructed Sibelius has become. Once you're over the Ribbon speed hump and start drilling down, you'll discover all your old favourite features and shortcuts are still there just as before, but far more accessible and intuitively positioned. > > Although some of the old bugbears like "cannot paste into a tuplet" are still there, on the plus side, the number of improvements is vast. To be fair, there's only so much you can pack into a single release, and just the conversion into 64 bit code required a total rebuild of the entire application. > > Now, if you feel up to becoming a bit of an activist with us, there is a website and Facebook page set up to try and rescue Sibelius from Avid before it's too late. Links are below my name. > -- > Derek Williams > > www.sibeliususers.org > www.savesibelius.com -- graham in oz Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Martin P. Kellogg - 24 Aug 05:23AM Hide picture I'd recommend getting Sib 7. Besides the obvious (and controversial) change in the UI, it has several important improvements: 64-bit support, better text handling, an improved sound library (that'll require an upgrade of your equipment, but you can still use the Sib 6 Essentials sounds), Music XML export, built-in PDF export. It's also likely to remain compatible with new OSs longer than Sib 6 will. Given that Sib 8 will be a long time coming (if ever), upgrading is a wise choice. -- Martin Sibelius 7.1.2 & 6.2, Core i5 M560 2.67 GHz, 8 GB, Windows 7 Pro SP1 64-bit. Sibelius 6.2, Core 2 Duo 2.26 GHz, 3 GB usable, Windows XP Pro SP3 32-bit (rarely used now). Shared second monitor (1920x1200), KeyRig 49, Echo Indigo IOx audio interface. Year 2012 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by David Rance - 24 Aug 09:35AM Hide picture Thanks, Derek and Martin, for your responses. Yesterday evening I read up quite a bit on the situation as well as watching your video blog interview, Derek. I will take the advice of upgrading to 7 as soon as I can, though it won't be for at least a fortnight as I don't return to the UK until 6th September. (One wonders if anything will be left in a fortnight at the rate things are going!) Yes, I know I shall need to upgrade my computer, etc. I thought, when 7 came out that it would work only on the 64-bit OS. I'm sure that can't be right. But thanks for the warning about having to rethink my approach to Sibelius! But what about making Sibelius 8 compatible with Windows 8? Surely that's going to entail a major rewrite? Along with the usual Sibelius policy of not talking about what there will be in future upgrades, I don't suppose anyone has let slip anything about that but I'd be surprised if that wasn't on the agenda. And how far had they got with it? I can't see our Ukranian friends being able to get to grips with that. I'm not denigrating their programming skills but, like the rest of you, I think they're going to need more than that in order to be able to understand a music program like Sibelius. Thanks again for your responses and advice. It's very much appreciated. And I'll do what I can to make other Sibelius users in the Reading area aware of the situation. David -- Organist/choirmaster, etc. Sib. 6.2 Windows XP, 3Ghz, 2Gb RAM Creative Sound Blaster Laptop Vista Intel Core 2 Duo, 2Ghz, 2Gb RAM Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Martin P. Kellogg - 24 Aug 09:08PM Hide picture Just to reassure you, Sibelius 7 runs fine in 32-bit Windows, and runs in either 64- or 32-bit mode on a 64-bit OS. It should be usable on either of your current systems, using Sib 6 Essentials (or any library you're currently using) for sound. -- Martin Sibelius 7.1.2 & 6.2, Core i5 M560 2.67 GHz, 8 GB, Windows 7 Pro SP1 64-bit. Sibelius 6.2, Core 2 Duo 2.26 GHz, 3 GB usable, Windows XP Pro SP3 32-bit (rarely used now). Shared second monitor (1920x1200), KeyRig 49, Echo Indigo IOx audio interface. Year 2012 Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by David Rance - 25 Aug 06:28AM Hide picture Thanks for that, Martin. That does reassure me. David -- Organist/choirmaster, etc. Sib. 6.2 Windows XP, 3Ghz, 2Gb RAM Creative Sound Blaster Laptop Vista Intel Core 2 Duo, 2Ghz, 2Gb RAM Back to top | All threads

Re: Avid & Sibelius Posted by Steve - 14 Sep 05:58AM Hide picture Wow, I've been away too long... This isn't really surprising, is it? We all knew AVID would be the death of Sibelius. I add my voice to those who will not be purchasing any further upgrades, and I love the idea (fantasy?) of the Finn Brothers collaborating with Spreadbury et al and (re-)creating a superior product! I may dream, may I not? -- Sibelius 7.1, iMac - Snow Leopard 2012. http://ComposersofSibelius.com Back to top | All threads