'Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?'

Messages in this thread

Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default? - Brian Bergin, 21 Feb 04:16PM
     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Laurence Payne, 21 Feb 04:52PM
         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 21 Feb 06:38PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 21 Feb 07:16PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Daniel Spreadbury, 21 Feb 07:55PM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 21 Feb 09:15PM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Justin Tokke, 21 Feb 10:34PM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 21 Feb 10:46PM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - James Gilbert, 22 Feb 12:39AM
     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - BrizzoRay, 21 Feb 11:33PM
         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - John Murdoch, 22 Feb 06:24PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Laurence Payne, 22 Feb 06:48PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 22 Feb 07:06PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Mark Isaacs, 23 Feb 10:46AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Andrew Moschou, 26 Feb 08:12AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Laurence Payne, 26 Feb 11:26AM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Porter, 26 Feb 03:02PM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 29 Feb 08:28PM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 29 Feb 08:58PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 02 Mar 12:53PM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 02 Mar 07:03PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 02 Mar 10:33PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 02 Mar 10:57PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 02 Mar 11:28PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 03 Mar 12:43AM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 03 Mar 12:57AM
                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 03 Mar 12:09PM
                                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Daniel Spreadbury, 03 Mar 11:47PM
                                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 04 Mar 05:05AM
                                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 05 Mar 01:58PM
                                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Jeremy Hughes, 05 Mar 02:37PM
                                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Daniel Spreadbury, 05 Mar 04:26PM
                                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 06 Mar 03:34AM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Jeremy Hughes, 05 Mar 02:24PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Justin Tokke, 07 Mar 04:47AM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Jeremy Hughes, 07 Mar 07:24AM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 07 Mar 01:16PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Marcos dos Santos, 07 Mar 02:41PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 07 Mar 06:15PM
                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 07 Mar 06:33PM
                                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 07 Mar 06:51PM
                                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - joelfriedman, 29 May 08:07PM
                                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 29 May 09:21PM
                                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Martin P. Kellogg, 30 May 03:50AM
                                                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 30 May 04:24AM
                                                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 30 May 11:31AM
                                                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 30 May 02:43PM
                                                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 31 May 03:23AM
                                                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - James Gilbert, 31 May 02:03PM
                                                                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 31 May 03:28PM
                                                                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 31 May 08:12PM
                                                                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 31 May 09:19PM
                                                                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 02 Jun 12:58PM
                                                                                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - dnino4, 07 Mar 03:20PM
                                                                                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - dnino4, 07 Mar 03:26PM

Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 21 Feb 04:16PM
Come on, A4 is still the page default size even though Avid has said the majority of its customers are in N. America wher A4 is NOT even a size paper you can buy let alone use without special order it. I just spent hours getting everything to fit right on a new score and printed it and Sibelius continues to use a paper size, by default, that most of its customers don't use.

Now here's somethign you have to love. If you go to File, Preferences, the settings, which I have not changed, are set to "US sizes (Letter, Tabloid, etc.)" but wit measurements to mm (Metric). Clearly, this is NOT right as A4 was the default for this new score that that was done entirely in 7.1, but I'm not sure why I'm surprised as this was a common complaint in 6.x as well.

Also, while Canada may use the Metric system, if you're going to have the default Preferences to US sizes, why would you pick Metric? Come on Avid, get your page sizes right. I'm glad I only printed a few pages to see what it looked like without sending the entire score and parts to the printer, but this is getting old.

How do I GUARANTEE that every new score will default to the size I want, NOT what Sibelius guesses?

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Laurence Payne - 21 Feb 04:52PM
That's odd. I just tried and, after selecting "US sizes" in Preferences, everything in the New Score page was created in Letter size. Even when using a Manuscript Paper I had set up myself, on A4.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 21 Feb 06:38PM
There were similar problems in 6.x. Some users would always come up 8.5"x11" while others would come up A4. Sibelius wasn't ever able to reproduce it. My point still remains, though, that A4 isn't a standard paper size for the vast majority of Sibelius users so Letter/inches should be the default, certainly not A4/mm and that it should ask during setup (or just be smart enough to pull that info from the time zone on the computer, if the time zone isn't right, that's not Sibelius' fault).

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Feb 07:16PM
Brian, is this on Mac or Windows?

What is the localisation of your operating system?

--
Sibelius 7.1/6.2, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 21 Feb 07:55PM
When has Avid, or an Avid employee, ever said that the "vast majority of its customers are in N. America"? If Avid has ever said that, it's certainly not said it about Sibelius, because it's not true.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help online:
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Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply):
USA & Canada: +1 650-731-6106
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Other countries: www.sibelius.com/support

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 21 Feb 09:15PM
My appologies if I have mispoken about which area has more users, though Sibelius would be reasonably unique if US users weren't the majority based on country-by-country locations, but while I'm more than open the possiblity that I'm mistaken about Sibelius' customer base, that Sibelius makes assumptions about paper sizes without either using native location parameters built into every OS (timezone would be a good indication, language preferences also might help, say US English vs. UK English) or even bothering to ask the user what size they would prefer to use is a problem. Also, that some of us had A4 vs. letter size problems in 6.x and continue appear to continue have them in 7. For reference:

http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=507764&groupid=3

I started that thread in 6.x and at least one has reported it remains in 7.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Justin Tokke - 21 Feb 10:34PM
Or, you could just check the page size of your score before doing anything with it. That will take you a grand total of maybe two seconds of your time.

--
Justin Tokke
Composer, Trombonist
http://www.justintokke.com>JustinTokke.com

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Robin Walker - 21 Feb 10:46PM
There is something puzzling about this.

Brian has posted that Sibelius has correctly defaulted his default paper size to US Sizes (which it does on the basis of the regional settings of his operating system). With this setting, Sibelius will create new scores with the default US size, such as Letter.

But Brian reports he obtains scores with A4 paper size. How does he achieve this? No-one else seems to be able to reproduce this. Does Brian perhaps do something to the scores after creation that changes their paper size from Letter to A4? Such as importing a House Style that has A4 paper size? If Brian could post a set of steps that reproduce the problem in a simple test case, then we could try those steps too.

(The previous thread seems to be primarily about *part* paper sizes, and only on scores that were imported into Sibelius).

--
Sibelius 7.1/6.2, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by James Gilbert - 22 Feb 12:39AM
> But Brian reports he obtains scores with A4 paper size. How does he achieve this? No-one else seems to be able to reproduce this. Does Brian perhaps do something to the scores after creation that changes their paper size from Letter to A4? Such as importing a House Style that has A4 paper size? If Brian could post a set of steps that reproduce the problem in a simple test case, then we could try those steps too.

I've had problems with brand new files in Sibelius 6 & 7 defaulting to A4 size but can't replicate it. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It seems that every time I add a new part to a document it ALWAYS defaults to A4, even if the score and other parts are 8.5x11 inches. I've learned to deal with it (since I can't find anywhere to set the default size of new parts).

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by BrizzoRay - 21 Feb 11:33PM
Every country in the world uses metric paper sizes except for two countries - U.S.A. and Canada. The metric A4 page is a bit longer and a fraction narrower than the American letter-size page. The metric A3 page is equivalent to two A4 pages side by side.

After migrating to Australia from Canada I grew to love A4 pages because I can bit an extra music staff on an A4 page.

Perhaps the USA and Canada should consider changing to the world standard instead of being the odd ones out.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by John Murdoch - 22 Feb 06:24PM
BrizzoRay--

North America, you may recall, encompasses more than two countries.

I worked in the printing and publishing industry for many years, and my wife still does. (I first discovered Sibelius when I needed to typeset a short piece of music for a project.)

There are advantages and disadvantages to both the European and North American sizes. And while I can't speak to the question of whether or not the "vast majority" of Sibelius users live in North America, it's absolutely true that the majority of pulp and paper produced in the world comes from North America.

Paper sizes in North America are based on using the paper that comes off the paper machine most efficiently. European sizes maintain a 2/3 width-to-height proportion, which is quite convenient--but requires a lot of "trim loss" to produce each different size. Which, of course, results in wasted paper, excess carbon usage, global warming, melting icebergs, and drowning polar bears. Really, really cute polar bears.

So perhaps it would be best if the world adopted the more eco-friendly North American paper standard.

8-)




--
Sibelius 2 - 7.1 | Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
HP dv7 notebook, Intel i5 quad CPU, 8 GB RAM
Kontakt Player 4 | GPO 4 | Hauptwerk 4

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Laurence Payne - 22 Feb 06:48PM (edited 22 Feb 06:49PM)
So America should set up their paper mills to make the slightly smaller size, requiring no trimming. The slightly larger size is wasteful - we get no more music on a Letter page than an A4 one.

In no time there would be a plague of polar bears! Americans could amuse themselves shooting them.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Robin Walker - 22 Feb 07:06PM
> European sizes maintain a 2/3 width-to-height proportion

No. The ratio is 1/sqrt(2). This enables each trimmed size to be exactly one half of the next bigger trimmed size.

If I cut an A3 page in half, I get two exact A4 pages, and so on, with no wasted paper.

--
Sibelius 7.1/6.2, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 23 Feb 10:46AM
>The ratio is 1/sqrt(2). This enables each trimmed size to be exactly one half of the next bigger trimmed size.
>
> If I cut an A3 page in half, I get two exact A4 pages, and so on, with no wasted paper.

Yep, it's pure genius.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Andrew Moschou - 26 Feb 08:12AM
> >The ratio is 1/sqrt(2). This enables each trimmed size to be exactly one half of the next bigger trimmed size.
> >
> > If I cut an A3 page in half, I get two exact A4 pages, and so on, with no wasted paper.
>
> Yep, it's pure genius.

Exactly. I love being able to blow up/shrink on a photocopier and know that I'm not going to have a white (or black) stripe down the edge of the paper because it will always fit exactly.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Laurence Payne - 26 Feb 11:26AM
You mean the US sizes AREN'T related in this way? How odd!

It's pointless scoring in anything but A4/Letter format these days, unless the music is only going to be distributed in printed form. But it's a pity we've lost the option of the older standard music page size. What was it called?

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Bob Porter - 26 Feb 03:02PM
I am happy to be giving up my quill and large paper sizes.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 29 Feb 08:28PM
US Tabloid size, 11x17, cut or folded in 1/2, is EXACTLY Letter size, 8.5x11 so the A3 vs. US size comparison is moot. Come on guys, back to the problem. Robin seems to think no one else can repro this and yet there was a thread in 6 about this too so others absolutely ARE seeing this beyond those who have said they see it in this thread. The kicker here is users should be able to tell Sibelius to NEVER use a size of paper they don't want it to use or to ALWAYS use the size they tell it, even if you send them a score on A4. Sibelius is EXTREMELY good at resizing scores without destroying the look of the score (it’s something that no other scoring program does as well) and it should just tell the user, 'This score is in A4 but you've said you want it in Letter, would you like me to resize it now?" Yes/No/Always. It's VERY simple code but Sibelius doesn't seem to care to implement it.

As for the ridiculous notion that US companies retool to fit foreign wishes. That’s about the same same as me saying, use our paper products, use our sizes. I have 2 MINI Coopers made in England and every nut, bolt, and fitting is metric (except the tyres). I don’t complain, I just use it. I don’t demand that BMW retool my Coopers to SAE sizes. Perhaps US paper companies should only export US paper sizes. The fact is I can’t buy A4 paper locally without special ordering it so I need Sibelius to give me Letter sizes 100% of the time no matter what.

In the end, Sibelius needs to respect locations specified in the OS and give users the ability to put strict limits on sizes. Again, simple code, but apparently no desire to implement it.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Robin Walker - 29 Feb 08:58PM
Brian, as far as I have been able to tell, Sibelius does exactly what you are asking for.

Can you provide steps to reproduce the problem you observe?

--
Sibelius 7.1/6.2, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 02 Mar 12:53PM
Simplest way I’ve found is import a MIDI file and I have a TON of them from a previous notation product that the files are being converted to Sibelius, but other than that it seems to be random as many others have said, but it's also clear that Sibelius defaults to A4/metric and couldn't care less about the country location preset in the operating system. Robin, people have been reporting this for several versions going back to at least 6.x and notice the only response from Sibelius here was to blast my apparently wrong statement about where Sibelius sells its products, not a 'how can we help reproduce this so we can fix it' response. PR appears more important to Sibelius than solutions. It was the same Daniel that argued with me not too long ago that x64 was not needed for Sibelius and that they had no plans to go x64 and now it's a major part of their marketing campaign so I am not sure what I should have expected. Yes, as one put it, I could go into each part and verify Letter vs. A4, but that’s VERY time consuming when you have 30 parts to a score (unless there’s a feature I don’t know about to change all page sizes at once).

In the end, this may not be a time-after-time reproducible bug, but it happens too often and to too many people to be a coincidence.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 02 Mar 07:03PM (edited 02 Mar 10:34PM)
It seems to me that almost all the cases I have heard of where this happens involves importing files from a different format, possiblye only MIDI files, and perhaps it is also only a problem in countries other than the USA and UK.

(EDIT: actually in at least some cases Photoscore will cause this - see my next message in this thread)

So, not to say that it is not a problem, but I don't think it is particularly mainstream - I have never encountered it, for example.

I can probably work up a plugin that will at least tell you what the page sizes are for a score and parts, possibly for a folder of scores. I may also be able to get it to set the page size in the score and parts to a specific size, at least among the standard sizes. I have to see if this means changing staff margins as well and units, but this may also be possible.

I will play with this when I have a chance and see what can be done to at least improve things once they have gone wrong.

--
Bob

Sib 1.2 - 7, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 4 G RAM. Year 2012.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins; use Vista for Windows 7)
Alphabetical plugin lists: www.bobzawalich.com/DownloadPagePlugins.htm, www.bobzawalich.com/Sib6ShippingPlugins.htm

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 02 Mar 10:33PM (edited 02 Mar 10:40PM)
Actually, I have discovered (now that I can display the page sizes for the score and parts) that I have a number of scores that have Letter for scores and A4 for parts.

These appear to all be scores that started out coming from Photoscore Ultimate 6. I have just confirmed that if I read in a PDF file in Photoscore and send it to Sibelius, that the score comes in in letter and the parts in A4.

Generally these are scores for solo instruments so I never looked at the parts. But I have a lot of scores like this.

(EDIT: I just tried creating a new score, seeing all score and parts were letter, and exported it to MIDI and read it back in. Score is letter, parts are A4. This was done in Sibelius 6.2)

I have plugin code now that will display the page sizes for the score and each part. It is not available for distribution yet. I will start working on the code that will actually reset the page size (and possibly units) probably early next week.

--
Bob

Sib 1.2 - 7, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 4 G RAM. Year 2012.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins; use Vista for Windows 7)
Alphabetical plugin lists: www.bobzawalich.com/DownloadPagePlugins.htm, www.bobzawalich.com/Sib6ShippingPlugins.htm

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Robin Walker - 02 Mar 10:57PM
Bob, is it not possible to fix the paper-size of Parts by importing a suitable House Style?

--
Sibelius 7.1/6.2, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 02 Mar 11:28PM
I am not sure, but you would have to import it into the score, and possibly import a different house style into each part (there is a plugin that does that) and it may affect other things besides the page size.

So yeah, it is a possible solution, I think (I am not sure exactly how much layout stuff gets imported with a House Style), but it will be a several step process with possible side effects.

--
Bob

Sib 1.2 - 7, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 4 G RAM. Year 2012.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins; use Vista for Windows 7)
Alphabetical plugin lists: www.bobzawalich.com/DownloadPagePlugins.htm, www.bobzawalich.com/Sib6ShippingPlugins.htm

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 03 Mar 12:43AM
Bob,

Can you think of any reason, short of a long-time bug in Sibelius, that it would import scores as Letter and parts as A4? It makes zero sense to me and I’ve yet to see anyone at Sibelius even attempt to explain it. Since no Sibelius employee has chimed in other than to disagree with my thought that N. America was their largest market that suggests to me they know it’s a problem but don't want to admit it because then they’d have to fix it.

BTW, I'm not importing using Photoscore, my findings come almost exclusively from MIDI, but I have a ton of that. Maybe it's all related to importing in general since that’s really what you’re doing when using MIDI files. I'll have someone with Finalé send me a Music XML file and I'll import that and see what it does. In the end, however, Sibelius just needs to figure out what’s wrong and fix it. You shouldn't have to write a plug-in to fix this long-term issue.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 03 Mar 12:57AM
It looks to me that both MIDI and Photoscore imports can give me A4 parts when I have a Letter score.

And I just tried exporting a score that had Letter score and Parts in Sib 7 as MusicXML and I read it back in and it has A4 parts!

Looks to me as though the importing through any sort of convertor may have this problem, at least on my machine. And in both Sib 6 and 7.

>You shouldn't have to write a plug-in to fix this long-term issue.

It takes a lot longer to get a fix from Sibelius than it does to get one from me, since I don't need to do as much of that pesky testing and daily building. So even if they were to decide that this were a bug they should deal with, you would have to wait for the next time they do an update to get a fix.

Besides, even if Sib does provide a fix, I would not expect them to provide a way to correct existing scores with this problem, and I am pretty sure I will be able to do that.

So I will keep working on it.


--
Bob

Sib 1.2 - 7, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 4 G RAM. Year 2012.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins; use Vista for Windows 7)
Alphabetical plugin lists: www.bobzawalich.com/DownloadPagePlugins.htm, www.bobzawalich.com/Sib6ShippingPlugins.htm

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Robin Walker - 03 Mar 12:09PM
Now that this thread has clarified itself into being about paper sizes in Parts rather than in Scores, I can reproduce the issue. In summary:

With preferences set for US paper sizes:

1. Scores created in Sibelius will correctly use Letter size for both Full Score and Parts.

2. Scores imported into Sibelius (other than from earlier versions of Sibelius) will correctly use Letter size for the Full Score, but A4 size for Parts. This persists even for new Parts added after the initial import: they will be created A4 size.

--
Sibelius 7.1/6.2, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 03 Mar 11:47PM
The fact that Sibelius always creates parts in scores created by importing MIDI and PhotoScore files in A4 size, despite the user's locale settings or choice of European vs. US page sizes in Preferences, is a known bug. It is on our list of bugs to fix in future versions.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help online:
http://www.sibelius.com/helpcenter/contact.html

Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply):
USA & Canada: +1 650-731-6106
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Australia: 1300 652 172
Other countries: www.sibelius.com/support

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 04 Mar 05:05AM
I have a plugin that can trace the page sizes and units of a given score and its parts for the current score, all open scores, or a folder of scores. It can also set the page sizes and units for any processed score, in the full score, parts only, or score and parts.

It will trace out what it changes.

It seems to me to work pretty well, but if anyone would be interested in trying it out before I unleash it, please send me email at the address about this message, and I will send you a copy to try out.

Thanks

--
Bob

Sib 1.2 - 7, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 4 G RAM. Year 2012.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins; use Vista for Windows 7)
Alphabetical plugin lists: www.bobzawalich.com/DownloadPagePlugins.htm, www.bobzawalich.com/Sib6ShippingPlugins.htm
Attachment Snap1.png (51K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 05 Mar 01:58PM
Daniel,

Sibelius has generally been very quiet about the future of bug fixes or new features, in fact you insisted while 6.x was the current version that a native x64 build would not help Sibelius’s speed or performance issues and yet now you use it in all your marketing and said you couldn’t talk about future features because Avid is a public company. The fact is public companies talk about future products all the time. Anyone heard of Windows 8? Apple also always manages to "lose" or have "stolen" one or two iPhones a few weeks before they’re launched, all too convenient for my taste! The fact is there’s nothing preventing a public company from announcing what it’s doing and will it give your “competitors” an advantage? I doubt it. They know what’s wrong with your products and if they’re smart they’re building their products to not have those problems. Public companies also talk about known errata (e.g. bugs). Cisco, Microsoft, Intel, and many other technology companies publish known bugs and issues. Microsoft alone has thousands of KB articles that talk about them. Apple has a similar KB. Intel, after they tried to tell us there were no problems in its Pentium CPUs in the early 90’s learned from that several hundred $ fiasco that telling is always better than hiding. Is there such a list for Sibelius 7.1? I think that list would be very interesting. The only companies that hide things are companies with things to hide.

Anyway, here’s my recommendation, though I’m afraid Avid will disregard out of hand, but I’m hoping Avid will truly consider it. Publish a survey to your registered customers of the top couple of hundred most reported bug reports and feature requests (with the date added to the tracking system) and ask us to rank them in order we wish to see them fixed/added (though don’t require we go all the way to total list, as some will only want a dozen fixed so the others will get zero vote points in the survey) with one other question included:

“If Avid were to release a full version upgrade, say 8.0, that ONLY addressed the top 100 bugs and requests in the release but no other new features no specifically voted on by our users, would you still be willing to pay to upgrade: YES or NO”

What does Avid have to lose? It’s a win-win. Either your customers tell you what they really need and you know they’ll buy it if you do it, or you’ll find out what needs done but don’t have to do anything because they tell you they won’t buy it so keep traveling down the road you are. Avid wins any way it looks at it. Avid gets a true view of what its customers want and we get a future version that we can rave about all the more, but if Avid keeps ignoring posts like this, there’s been no Avid post in almost 2 weeks about this, it only creates concern among customers that Avid doesn’t care.

Anyone else willing to pay for a full version upgrade that does nothing but do the top 100 things wanted by Sibelius' customers with nothing else in the mix?

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Jeremy Hughes - 05 Mar 02:37PM
Hi

Never gonna happen. If it made good (business) sense to do this, it would be happening across the software industry already.

And besides, my list of most important requests is not the same as anyone else's. Sure, if Sibelius did a version just for me, I'd pay for it. But it won't.

That's my tuppence worth.

You wrote:
>...if Avid keeps ignoring posts like this...

Daniel has responded to you twice on this thread; you may not know that he is the Senior Product Manager for Sibelius at Avid. So that's not particularly true.

Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
Sibelius 7.1 | iMac 3.2GHz i3 | OS X Version 10.6.8 Snow Leopard

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 05 Mar 04:26PM
I last replied to this thread less than two days ago, acknowledging that the specific behaviour of the page size in dynamic parts always being A4 in scores created by importing MIDI, PhotoScore or MusicXML files. Here it is again, in case you missed it:

http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=583204&groupid=3򎱪

I remember the conversation we had here about x64 and its potential benefits. I stand by the comments I made at the time that making Sibelius 64-bit would not intrinsically make Sibelius faster. I didn't provide any commentary on whether or not a 64-bit version of Sibelius was forthcoming because it's our company policy not to talk about future products. I am not in our legal or finance teams, so I am not qualified to make public statements about the specific reasons behind Avid's policies, and nor can I comment on how other publicly-traded companies approach these issues.

We do invite our customers to give us suggestions, and indeed we have very recently done a survey in which we invited customers not only to vote on possible future features, but also to make any other suggestions for things that they would like us to do, and we take that feedback very seriously.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help online:
http://www.sibelius.com/helpcenter/contact.html

Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply):
USA & Canada: +1 650-731-6106
UK: +44 (0)20 7561 7997
Australia: 1300 652 172
Other countries: www.sibelius.com/support

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 06 Mar 03:34AM
The plugin Page Size Score and Parts is available for download. FOr details, please see

http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=585087&groupid=3

--
Bob

Sib 1.2 - 7, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 4 G RAM. Year 2012.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins; use Vista for Windows 7)
Alphabetical plugin lists: www.bobzawalich.com/DownloadPagePlugins.htm, www.bobzawalich.com/Sib6ShippingPlugins.htm

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Jeremy Hughes - 05 Mar 02:24PM (edited 05 Mar 02:25PM)
Brian B wrote:
> US Tabloid size, 11x17, cut or folded in 1/2, is EXACTLY Letter size, 8.5x11 so the A3 vs. US size comparison is moot.

No, that's not the point. See attached picture.

Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
Sibelius 7.1 | iMac 3.2GHz i3 | OS X Version 10.6.8 Snow Leopard
Attachment Paper sizes.png (29K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Justin Tokke - 07 Mar 04:47AM
Just simply a different philosophy on paper sizes. Tabloid papers are really designed to be used in a landscape format and then folded to create a spread of four letter-sized pages, hence the name Tabloid. This is most helpful in printing scores where letter size is sufficient for pages.

--
Justin Tokke
Composer, Trombonist
http://www.justintokke.com>JustinTokke.com

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Jeremy Hughes - 07 Mar 07:24AM
All that is true of the A series too.

J

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 07 Mar 01:16PM
Daniel I saw your post above, I did not, however, see any survey. How was it distributed to owners? How many (% wise) were set the survey and how many of those resonded? Was it e-mailed to all registered owners? I'd love to see it and provide feedback.

I really don’t want to get into a debate over what Avid should and shouldn’t tell its customers about future versions, but the claim that public companies can’t disclose future plans is simply untrue. Microsoft, Google, Oracle, Sun, Cisco, many of them announce future products, some weeks, months, or years ahead of time. Anyone heard of Windows 8? It’s not due for RTM for many months and yet the world has known about its target feature set for a year or more. Anyway, I’d love to know how the survey was distributed and if the results were shared.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Marcos dos Santos - 07 Mar 02:41PM (edited 07 Mar 02:42PM)
Brian B wrote:

> I did not, however, see any survey. How was it distributed to owners? How many (% wise) were set the survey and how many of those resonded? Was it e-mailed to all registered owners? I'd love to see it and provide feedback.
>

Brian,

I received an email from Avid about this survey some time ago. Maybe you should check your spam folder!

--
Marcos

Sibelius 7.1, win 7 Ultimate SP1 32bits, M-Audio Fast Track Pro. Desktop: i7(950) 3.06Ghz 4GB Ram,
Notebook: Dual-core T2330 1.6Ghz 2GB Ram

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 07 Mar 06:15PM
Nope, not in my spam folder.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Robin Walker - 07 Mar 06:33PM
The survey was announced in this forum:
http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=569280&groupid=3

and announced in the Sibelius blog:
http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/have-your-say-in-the-future-of-sibelius/

--
Sibelius 7.1/6.2, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 07 Mar 06:51PM
I'm glad 20 or so people commented and most of them were very well thought out and logical, though I'm betting that's not even a small % of their customer base and unfortuantely I dont't have the time to frequent every blog out there or read every thread posted in the forums. Maybe next time I'll catch it.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by joelfriedman - 29 May 08:07PM
Hm... joining the party rather later. I just posted this to another thread

I never use A4 either and my default (Pref-->Files-->Default Page Size etc.) is set to Us Sizes and yet I keep finding files are set to A4... or, more in my case: ledger! I had this happen in constantly March-April when working on a piece under deadline and after setting it all right I'd print and sure enough: it was back on ledger, no matter how many times I set/reset this. Drove me up the wall!

Just saw that the file I'm currently on was in A4, even though the pref is set otherwise.

I never had this happen from v.1x-6x until going up to v. 7x (I'm up-to-date on 7.12).

I am wondering: a bug? FWIW: I'm not importing anything, not using a sequencer to initiate files, not going from MIDI etc. I've had this happen with newly created Sib files and opening older Sibelius files. I just thought it was me until I did a quick search today.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 29 May 09:21PM (edited 29 May 09:23PM)
Scores created by MIDI and Photoscore imports might have parts created as A4 when the score is Letter. This is a bug.

There is a downloadable plugin Page Size Score and Parts, for use with Sibelius 6 and Sibelius 7, available for free download at
http://www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/index.html?plugin=405, category Layout.

It changes the Document Layout page size for a score and/or all its parts. It can be useful if you have scores that were created with mismatched paper sizes after a conversion.



Sibelius is aware of the problem. It is mentioned in this thread:

http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=528691&groupid=3&words=A4&name=

This thread indicates that the problem was fixed in Sibelius 7.1.2:

http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=507764&groupid=3&words=A4&name=


If you are getting A4 parts but Letter scores when you are not creating the score as a MIDI. XML, or Photoscore import, it would be good to know. It would be good to know if you are in 7.1.2 and are still getting the mismatch as well.

If you are getting both scores and parts in A4 when you have the Letter option chosen, that could be a different issue than the one I am describing, though I have not heard of anyone else reporting this.

So please reply here if that is the case.


--
Bob

Sib 1.2 - 7, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 4 G RAM. Year 2012.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins; use Vista for Windows 7)
Alphabetical plugin lists: www.bobzawalich.com

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Martin P. Kellogg - 30 May 03:50AM
I just looked at a score I recently imported from Photoscore 6. Because it's a choir piece, I hadn't looked at or done anything with the parts. They are letter size, without making any changes.

--
Martin

Sibelius 7.1.2 & 6.2, Core i5 M560 2.67 GHz, 8 GB, Windows 7 Pro SP1 64-bit.
Sibelius 6.2, Core 2 Duo 2.26 GHz, 3 GB usable, Windows XP Pro SP3 32-bit (rarely used now).
Shared second monitor (1920x1200), KeyRig 49, Echo Indigo IOx audio interface. Year 2012

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 30 May 04:24AM
My experience with scores created in 7.1.2 is the same as Martin - scores and parts are in letter. But I had a number of scores I made with Photoscore or imported from Finale via MusicXML pre 7.1.2 that have mismatched sizes in the score and parts.

--
Bob

Sib 1.2 - 7, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 4 G RAM. Year 2012.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins; use Vista for Windows 7)
Alphabetical plugin lists: www.bobzawalich.com

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 30 May 11:31AM
I think the whole point here is page size is hit-or-miss with Sibelius depending on several different factors and has been an issue for several builds. It’s very disheartening to build and entire score and parts, get them “just right” only to forget to check page size, something NO OTHER commercial program I know of requires a user to do. Word, Excel, Corel, Adobe, they all appear to set page sizes based on location. Sibelius has known about this for years and while the plugin does work, it doesn’t “fix” the layout issues that often happen when resizing from A4 to Letter. Sibelius just needs to fix this in 7.1.3, but if I had to bet, just like with x64 where they denied it was coming for months, we’ll have to pay for an upgrade to 8.0 (or worse 9.0) to get this fix.

There’s a simple solution to this. Sibelius could, after importing, scanning, or otherwise creating a new document to have a screen pop-up (that could be disabled for those who do not care or not affected) that asks the user to verify the page size before continuing. That’d take about an hour to code and would avoid a great deal of frustration. Sibelius, IMHO, is far superior to Finale in so many ways, but this certainly isn’t one of them.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Robin Walker - 30 May 02:43PM
Brian B, this problem was FIXED in Sibelius 7.1.2. Any score you create in 7.1.2 or later, by import or otherwise, will have correct page sizes (the default) both in the main score and in parts. If you have any evidence to the contrary, please document how to reproduce the problem.

--
Sibelius 7.1.2/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 31 May 03:23AM
My appologies. I'm glad to hear it's fixed. I guess I've not imported anything since 7.1.2 was released.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by James Gilbert - 31 May 02:03PM (edited 31 May 02:03PM)
You said the problem was fixed and that any score I create "by import or otherwise" will have correct page sizes.

I'm still getting A4 sizes for parts in some situations.
To replicate: From the quick start menu, select the attached manuscript page as a new document. Select any system and view a part. That part is set to A4 while the score is set to Letter.

Ordinarily I wouldn't have caught this, but I added a solo instrument to the organ score the other day. When checking the layout of the solo instrument part, I discovered it was set to A4.

I found a partial fix to the problem: Open the manuscript paper, change every part to letter and export as manuscript paper. That fixes it for existing parts. However, when I go to add a new part, say a flute above the organ part, the new part is still showing as A4.

Did I miss a setting somewhere that needs to be changed? If not, the bug is still there as far as I'm concerned.

James
Sib 7.1.2 win64
Attachment Template-Organ.sib (33K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Robin Walker - 31 May 03:28PM
Your "manuscript page" presumably derives from a score that was created before 7.1.2, and therefore it remains bad. Making a score from a manuscript page does not count as creating a new score: you are just re-using an old score again.

--
Sibelius 7.1.2/6.2/5.2.5, PhotoScore Ult 7.0.2, Dolet 6 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 31 May 08:12PM
Then I submit Sibelius should provide an option to "ask" the user if they would like to keep the old score's bug in page formatting when updated in 7.1.2 or later or use the paper size as specified in the Preferences. This dialog box should have a check box that forces Sibelius to remember the option for all files subsequently opened so the user isn't asked constantly about this. That would be pretty trivial code.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 31 May 09:19PM
There is no such thing as trivial code in shipping commercial software.

--
Bob

Sib 1.2 - 7, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 4 G RAM. Year 2012.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins; use Vista for Windows 7)
Alphabetical plugin lists: www.bobzawalich.com

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by Brian Bergin - 02 Jun 12:58PM
As in all things in life, degrees of difficulty are relative to the task at hand. Adding this box would be trivial compared to the ribbon bar they added.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by dnino4 - 07 Mar 03:20PM
OK. so How can we fix it?!

D.Nino

--
Music Educator

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default?
Posted by dnino4 - 07 Mar 03:26PM
Got in Sin 7.1

Go to:

Parts/Parts appearance/all parts/ and from them you choose the page size you want. Yeah!

--
Music Educator

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Messages in this thread

Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page default? - Brian Bergin, 21 Feb 04:16PM
     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Laurence Payne, 21 Feb 04:52PM
         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 21 Feb 06:38PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 21 Feb 07:16PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Daniel Spreadbury, 21 Feb 07:55PM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 21 Feb 09:15PM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Justin Tokke, 21 Feb 10:34PM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 21 Feb 10:46PM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - James Gilbert, 22 Feb 12:39AM
     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - BrizzoRay, 21 Feb 11:33PM
         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - John Murdoch, 22 Feb 06:24PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Laurence Payne, 22 Feb 06:48PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 22 Feb 07:06PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Mark Isaacs, 23 Feb 10:46AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Andrew Moschou, 26 Feb 08:12AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Laurence Payne, 26 Feb 11:26AM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Porter, 26 Feb 03:02PM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 29 Feb 08:28PM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 29 Feb 08:58PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 02 Mar 12:53PM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 02 Mar 07:03PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 02 Mar 10:33PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 02 Mar 10:57PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 02 Mar 11:28PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 03 Mar 12:43AM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 03 Mar 12:57AM
                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 03 Mar 12:09PM
                                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Daniel Spreadbury, 03 Mar 11:47PM
                                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 04 Mar 05:05AM
                                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 05 Mar 01:58PM
                                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Jeremy Hughes, 05 Mar 02:37PM
                                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Daniel Spreadbury, 05 Mar 04:26PM
                                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 06 Mar 03:34AM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Jeremy Hughes, 05 Mar 02:24PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Justin Tokke, 07 Mar 04:47AM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Jeremy Hughes, 07 Mar 07:24AM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 07 Mar 01:16PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Marcos dos Santos, 07 Mar 02:41PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 07 Mar 06:15PM
                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 07 Mar 06:33PM
                                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 07 Mar 06:51PM
                                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - joelfriedman, 29 May 08:07PM
                                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 29 May 09:21PM
                                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Martin P. Kellogg, 30 May 03:50AM
                                                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 30 May 04:24AM
                                                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 30 May 11:31AM
                                                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 30 May 02:43PM
                                                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 31 May 03:23AM
                                                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - James Gilbert, 31 May 02:03PM
                                                                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Robin Walker, 31 May 03:28PM
                                                                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 31 May 08:12PM
                                                                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Bob Zawalich, 31 May 09:19PM
                                                                                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - Brian Bergin, 02 Jun 12:58PM
                                                                                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - dnino4, 07 Mar 03:20PM
                                                                                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Seriously, A4 is still the page d... - dnino4, 07 Mar 03:26PM