'Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement'

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Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Randa Kirshbaum, 03 Jan 10:40PM
     Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Jeremy Hughes, 03 Jan 11:31PM
         Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Daniel Spreadbury, 03 Jan 11:59PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Mark Isaacs, 04 Jan 01:03AM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Jesper Elén, 04 Jan 10:42AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Matthew Fields, 04 Jan 11:23AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Laurence Payne, 04 Jan 11:30AM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Randa Kirshbaum, 04 Jan 03:05PM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Mark Isaacs, 05 Jan 01:50AM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Jim Druckenmiller, 05 Jan 09:38AM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Bob N, 21 May 08:09PM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Jesper Elén, 21 May 08:17PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Lhoff, 16 Nov 01:46AM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Lhoff, 16 Nov 01:48AM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Adrian Drover, 16 Nov 07:21AM

Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Randa Kirshbaum - 03 Jan 10:40PM (edited 04 Jan 03:22PM)
Dear SIB Software Engineers,

We editors at Boosey & Hawkes would be very appreciative if you would incorporate the proper placement of accidentals in a chord, in the next update of Sibelius. The proper placement is a pyramid stack, with the outer accidentals closest to the notes, and successive upper and lower ones futher out, till the middle accidental in the chord is reached (furthest from the notes). It would save us hours of editing time. (See attachment)

Thank you

Randa Kirshbaum
Director, Editorial

Maggie Heskin
Manager, Editorial

David Nadal
Editor
Attachment Accidentals_-_placement.sib (51K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Jeremy Hughes - 03 Jan 11:31PM
Hi

I definitely agree with the proposition that the default accidental placement in chords could be improved, and would be appreciated.

Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
Sibelius 7.0 | iMac 3.2GHz i3 | OS X Version 10.6.7 Snow Leopard

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 03 Jan 11:59PM
Sibelius's handling of accidental placement is certainly imperfect, and we do intend to add further control in a future version of the program, but I'm afraid I can't promise that it will be in any particular update. Thanks for taking the time to post your example.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help online:
http://www.sibelius.com/helpcenter/contact.html

Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply):
USA & Canada: +1 650-731-6106
UK: +44 (0)20 7561 7997
Australia: 1300 652 172
Other countries: www.sibelius.com/support

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 04 Jan 01:03AM
I like the music posted in the example! But I love polytonality....

Having just completed 45 minutes of complex solo piano music, I realise I have put my trust in Sibelius on this issue, and will also need to do substantial editing to accidentals in chords.

I understand Daniel not making any promises re timeline. One can only hope this (and some other notation anomalies) are given high priority for fixes by the developers now that the UI, 64 bit, text & graphic handling, proprietary sounds etc (i.e. largely non-notational) phase of the program's development has been given a solid run.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway.

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Jesper Elén - 04 Jan 10:42AM
I agree about the priorities Mark, I'll bet the always very helpful Bob is thinking about if it's possible to edit the accidentals in a plugin.


Jesper

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Matthew Fields - 04 Jan 11:23AM
Having extensively fought the capricious accidental placement of Sibelius 1, 2, 4, and 6, as well as capricious hiding and showing of accidentals around octava lines and staff-crossing gestures, and thus having spent hundreds of hours pulling accidentals off of neighboring notes and using independent graphics to fake the showing of accidentals, I vote to prioritize this aspect of correct music notation above audio output enhancements.

As far as I know, the only computer system which gives correct standard music notation by default is Score, but Score is almost unusable by anybody other than a publisher. And as far as I know, this situation regarding music notation has been the same for thirty years, now.

NOTE TO SOFTWARE-MAKERS: This message is not carte blanche for you to spam me with adverts for your alternative notation-maker. If you do, and your notation output cannot at LEAST match the Boosey & Hawkes stylesheet or Universal Edition stylesheet down to the 2400th of an inch, then I reserve the right to ridicule you mercilessly.

--
Splendor in Sound! [Sib6.2,XP-SP2,3.4GHz,3Gb]

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Laurence Payne - 04 Jan 11:30AM
Are these stylesheets available for out perusal?

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Randa Kirshbaum - 04 Jan 03:05PM
The Boosey House Style guide is under constuction at present. We will let you know when it is ready for perusal. Thanks for your interest.

Best,
Randa Kirshbaum

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 05 Jan 01:50AM
A follow on question on the accidentals/chord matter for the expert engravers here who might care to comment re the attached screenshot.

Is Sibelius' placement of the flat next to the B on the 3rd beat, upper (treble) stave, correct? That is, sitting *inside* the leger lines?

It looks odd, but I'm not sure...

It's not a spacing issue where Sibelius is being forced to do this. I pasted the bar into a new document with no other music and it was still the same result.

Just wondering if this is also something I need to override as well as the chord pyramid stacks where necessary.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
Sibelius 6.2.0 build 88, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra 3, Garritan Authorised Steinway.
Attachment flat.png (20K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 05 Jan 09:38AM (edited 29 Dec 06:00AM)
Just for the sake of satisfying related curiosities, fans of this thread might also be in interested in this link. . . http://home.comcast.net/~tom.brodhead/accs-samples.pdf

It's come up in the past (twice that I can recall), but it hasn't been mentioned in a while, so it might be new for some.

--

For context, the link was taken from this web page. . . http://home.comcast.net/~tom.brodhead/accs.htm




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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Bob N - 21 May 08:09PM
Please allow me to add my name to all the requests for proper placement of accidentals in chords. I know that you are working on it, so consider this incentive to continue.
It may seem like a small issue to some folks, especially since, in the end, for those who allow the faulty placement (including yours truly on occasion), the music actually gets performed. It is easy to let it go and leave it up to the player. "It's okay." "They will know what it means." "Everything is there; they will read it." Etc. But I think the more important issue is the devaluation of the product, in this case Sibelius, but in a broader sense the entire part of the music industry that utilizes written music. We already are living through a period of time in which the general culture is becoming more accepting of less value. Let's not add to that by allowing such a minor flaw with major implications continue uncorrected.
The language of music, now, exists as the summation of centuries of development and refinement, much as spoken languages have developed. We allow for growth and changes. We adapt to new styles and new methods of expression. Yet there are fundamental aspects which remain at the core of our language. The ability for a player to grasp the meaning of a chord at sight (i.e., alignment of accidentals) is one of those fundamental aspects. All those milliseconds of extra time it takes for a reader to take in the extra space of those extended accidentals add up. And part of those results are mistakes in performance, anxiety in approaching new or newly engraved music, and any number of subtle reactions, the combination of which results in downgraded quality and an overall decline in the acceptance of music.
It's easy to look at this affecting only the professionals -- orchestra players, film musicians, studio players, etc. But it's really the casual users, the everyday folk, who end up being discouraged the most. If you give a new student (of any age) a guitar with action (strings) so high that it hurts to press them to the fingerboard, then that student will quickly get discouraged and loose interest. The best way to foster that interest is to give the student an instrument that has as many of the best qualities as possible, so that what he or she produces on it will be relatively simple to do and will sound lovely.
So let's have Sibelius get those accidentals in order and make all those awkward chords now sound lovely.
-- Bob Nowak

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Jesper Elén - 21 May 08:17PM
Well said Bob (as always).

Jesper

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Lhoff - 16 Nov 01:46AM
i agree with Bob Nowak .. entirely! I am editing the second proof of my score and it's so demoralizing to see -- along with everything else.. i might have to go into every chord with the "inspector" and manually reset all of the accidentals in a chord... this should not be in a software like Sibelius.. it's embarrassing to see the chord come out WRONG because the software is lacking .. making me seem ignorant of proper notation.... please send me any helpful information . and if there is none JUST FIX IT >> PLEASE... I don't want to have to switch to FINALE (if that's any better in this regard.. I took and will post a screen shot of something offered here, and it is entirely correct and what i am looking to have happen.. please advise
thank you .. Larry Hoffman lh.hoff@comcast.net
Attachment Screen Shot 2018-11-15 at 8.46.29 PM.png (369K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Lhoff - 16 Nov 01:48AM
Please show how we may get to THIS>>> ie the proper way!
Attachment Screen Shot 2018-11-15 at 8.46.29 PM.png (369K)

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Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement
Posted by Adrian Drover - 16 Nov 07:21AM
Sib has never been clever about organizing clusters of accidentals. Judging by your example, I think Sib likes to line up octave accidentals. I don't know if that is kosher or not. Do you have "Prefer top accidental at right" selected (Engraving rules)?

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Messages in this thread

Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Randa Kirshbaum, 03 Jan 10:40PM
     Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Jeremy Hughes, 03 Jan 11:31PM
         Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Daniel Spreadbury, 03 Jan 11:59PM
             Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Mark Isaacs, 04 Jan 01:03AM
                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Jesper Elén, 04 Jan 10:42AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Matthew Fields, 04 Jan 11:23AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Laurence Payne, 04 Jan 11:30AM
                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Randa Kirshbaum, 04 Jan 03:05PM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Mark Isaacs, 05 Jan 01:50AM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Jim Druckenmiller, 05 Jan 09:38AM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Bob N, 21 May 08:09PM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Jesper Elén, 21 May 08:17PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Lhoff, 16 Nov 01:46AM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Lhoff, 16 Nov 01:48AM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.1: Accidentals in chords, placement - Adrian Drover, 16 Nov 07:21AM