'Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns'

Messages in this thread

Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - John White, 06 Sep 11:01AM
     Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - Walter Barrett, 06 Sep 12:49PM
         Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - John White, 07 Sep 01:39PM
             Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - Walter Barrett, 09 Sep 06:47PM
     Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - Wim Hoogewerf, 09 Sep 07:18PM
         Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - jay vilnai, 09 Sep 10:28PM
             Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - Walter Barrett, 09 Sep 11:55PM
                 Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - John White, 12 Sep 08:46AM
         Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - Timothy R Wheeler, 12 Sep 11:54AM
             Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - John White, 13 Sep 10:37AM
                 Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - Walter Barrett, 13 Sep 01:27PM
                     Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - John White, 13 Sep 01:53PM

Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns
Posted by John White - 06 Sep 11:01AM
I'm copying an orchestral score from the 1830s into Sibelius 6.2. The horns are first specified as being in D with no key signature. For some time later on they change to E, before finally coming back to D, which happens to be the home key of the score. I'd like to keep the score as originally published but to play back using the correct transpositions. I started by selecting a Romantic Orchestra from Sibelius Sounds, deleting any surplus instruments and adjusting the positions of others. However, when it came to the horns, I was faced with a pair of staves, bracketed together in F. I endeavoured to change them to D by deleting the original name and substituting "Horns in D". where the change to E was specified, I went to Create ---> Other---> Instrument change and selected "Horn in E,no key signature" and I did a similar thing when they needed to change back to D. My problem is that they don't seem to sound right during play back and I just can't get rid of the key signature. Could someone please show me where I have gone wrong and let me know the correct way of going about what I was aiming at doing. Later on, when I have finished copying the score, I would like to adapt it to take modern valve horns in F.
Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns
Posted by Walter Barrett - 06 Sep 12:49PM
Is it possible that when you were entering the horn parts, you were in transposed score when you thought you were in concert? or vice versa? That will mess up things in playback.

It will help if you can attach the .sib file here, so folks can look under the hood.

--
Walter Barrett
www.walterbarrett.com

Sibelius 6.2, Mac Pro 2.8 Ghz quad core Xeon, 3GB RAM
OS 10.6.8
Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns
Posted by John White - 07 Sep 01:39PM
Many thanks, Walter, for your helpful suggestion. I shall now endeavour to attach the file in question to this reply.
Cheers,
John.
Attachment Symphony No 6 in D major.sib (123K)
Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns
Posted by Walter Barrett - 09 Sep 06:47PM
I haven't figured out exactly how it got that way, but it appears to me that the horns look to be written in the correct transposed pitch, but are somehow playing back with an F transposition, instead of the notated one. In bar 61, are the Oboe and horn supposed to be in thirds or in unison? The notated pitches would be correct for unison if it really was Horn in D, but you'd get thirds if the horn was in F. That would also explain the horn's key signature of 3 sharps, which would be the correct key signature if it was Horn in F. If it really was Horn in D, it wouldn't even require a key signature.

Perhaps the changes made in Edit Instruments didn't get applied somehow, and possibly also compounded by errors entering pitches in Transposed/Concert score?



--
Walter Barrett
www.walterbarrett.com

Sibelius 6.2, Mac Pro 2.8 Ghz quad core Xeon, 3GB RAM
OS 10.6.8
Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns
Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 09 Sep 07:18PM
> I endeavoured to change them to D by deleting the original name and substituting "Horns in D".

Changing the name doesn't change the transposition. They're still Horns in F and behave as such.

> My problem is that they don't seem to sound right during play back and I just can't get rid of the key signature.

In bar 5 the G in cello and double-bass sounds 'wrong' against the F# of the horns.


--
MacOS 10.6.8
Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns
Posted by jay vilnai - 09 Sep 10:28PM
Walter

Create a new staff in the score, picking 'Horn in D [no key]' from the Brass family (make sure the menu on the top left of the instruments dialogue has 'all instruments' selected).

Triple-click your horn staff and copy the music into the new staff. Create the instrument change to Horn in E [no key] where you need it.

Delete the original horn staves.

--
Jay Vilnai
Macbook Pro 2.4ghz, 4gb RAM, OS 10.6.7, Sibelius 6.2 & 5.4, Kontakt, Vienna Strings, Random Soundfonts, too many guitars
Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns
Posted by Walter Barrett - 09 Sep 11:55PM
Jay- I tried taking John's score and copying the horn parts as you suggested, but that didn't work. Some parts sound ok, but others are dreadful. I still think it's a transposition problem/pilot error, but not a consistent one.

John- I'm assuming you have a score that you're preparing parts from, probably transposed, not in concert pitch? I'd delete your current horn staves, and add new ones into your TRANSPOSED score, using Jay's procedure to create new staves starting out as Horn in D (from the "all instruments" submenu). I wouldn't modify an F horn staff, even though it looks like you did it correctly, because something's making it read in D, but play in F. Then, enter the music exactly as it appears into your new staff. Insert your changes to E and back to D as needed.

--
Walter Barrett
www.walterbarrett.com

Sibelius 6.2, Mac Pro 2.8 Ghz quad core Xeon, 3GB RAM
OS 10.6.8
Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns
Posted by John White - 12 Sep 08:46AM
Many thanks, gentlemen, for all those helpful ideas. I'm inclined to agree with you all that my attempt to change horns in F at the start to horns in D was unsuccessful. Now, as it is my intention to eventually extract parts for a modern orchestra where the valve horns are invariably in F, would it not be just as easy to re-label them "horns in F" at the start and then take the "D" & "E" sections down the relevant number of semitone steps to match the "F" transposition? The only snag in this case is that it will probably involve certain mental arithmetic gymnastics which, knowing me, I could easily get wrong!
However,I certainly go along with your suggestion, Jay, if I just wanted to keep the score as authentic as possible.
Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns
Posted by Timothy R Wheeler - 12 Sep 11:54AM
I would like to know how to change 'ensembles'? I have written a brass band score and I would like to change it to 'orchestral score'? Please. thank you.
Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns
Posted by John White - 13 Sep 10:37AM
Using my piano key board to count on I've now established that going down the perfect fifth from C to F involves 7 semitone steps,from C to E takes in 8 and from C to D is 10. Now 10-7=3 & 8-7=1. Am I therefore correct in assuming that where the horn parts on the original score are written for D horns I should take them down 3 steps and for E horns, just one step, so that they sound correctly on F Horns?
By the way, Timothy, I think your query merits a separate thread to itself. Briefly, I would suggest getting hold of scores of brass band arrangements of well known orchestral works and comparing them with the original orchestral scores from publishers such as Eulenberg or Dover.
This should give you some idea of how the brass band arranger coped with going from full orchestra to brass band and might provide some insight into performing the reverse process.
Cheers,
John.
Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns
Posted by Walter Barrett - 13 Sep 01:27PM
That sounds about right. You may find it easier to work in concert pitch for your score, then toggle it to transposed later. This was the biggest change for me, coming from handwritten scores, where I would would work from the start with transposed notation. Never do cut and paste operations while also switching back and forth between concert and transposed views, though. Too easy to mess things up, just pick a view and stick with it. Just find the way that hurts your brain the least. Some people can transpose easily in their head, others have to work at it.

You might also try, before you go ahead and delete your already entered horn parts, switch to concert pitch score, make a new staff for F horn, copy the existing part into the new f horn part, then use Transpose (by interval) to move the notes to the proper interval. Shortcut shift-T.
--
Walter Barrett
www.walterbarrett.com

Sibelius 6.2, Mac Pro 2.8 Ghz quad core Xeon, 3GB RAM
OS 10.6.8
Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns
Posted by John White - 13 Sep 01:53PM
Many thanks Walter, for all those tips. I think I've just about got the idea now.
Cheers,
John.
Back to top | All threads
 

Quick reply

To add a reply to the end of this thread, type it below, then click Reply.

(.sib, .png and .jpg only)

Messages in this thread

Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - John White, 06 Sep 11:01AM
     Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - Walter Barrett, 06 Sep 12:49PM
         Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - John White, 07 Sep 01:39PM
             Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - Walter Barrett, 09 Sep 06:47PM
     Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - Wim Hoogewerf, 09 Sep 07:18PM
         Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - jay vilnai, 09 Sep 10:28PM
             Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - Walter Barrett, 09 Sep 11:55PM
                 Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - John White, 12 Sep 08:46AM
         Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - Timothy R Wheeler, 12 Sep 11:54AM
             Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - John White, 13 Sep 10:37AM
                 Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - Walter Barrett, 13 Sep 01:27PM
                     Re: Sib. 6.x: Changing Horns - John White, 13 Sep 01:53PM