'Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!'

Messages in this thread

Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Laurence Payne, 28 Jul 04:42PM
     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Richard Vitale, 28 Jul 04:56PM
         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Kelly Fenton, 28 Jul 04:59PM
             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - randall999, 28 Jul 05:54PM
         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Laurence Payne, 28 Jul 05:08PM
     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Bob Zawalich, 28 Jul 04:57PM
         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Justin Tokke, 28 Jul 05:03PM
     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - randall999, 28 Jul 05:53PM
         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Kelly Fenton, 28 Jul 06:09PM
             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 28 Jul 09:34PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 29 Jul 12:34AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Claude Marc Bourget, 30 Jul 05:22PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Benjamin P., 29 Jul 02:14AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 29 Jul 07:34AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Robin Walker, 29 Jul 09:25AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 29 Jul 11:09AM
                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 29 Jul 11:52AM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 29 Jul 01:56PM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Neil Sands, 29 Jul 03:50PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Steve, 29 Jul 05:42PM
                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 30 Jul 04:11PM
                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Neil Sands, 30 Jul 04:14PM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 30 Jul 04:46PM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Richard Vitale, 30 Jul 05:54PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 30 Jul 07:43PM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Claude Marc Bourget, 30 Jul 07:54PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 30 Jul 07:58PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Claude Marc Bourget, 30 Jul 09:37PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Neil Sands, 30 Jul 10:34PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Neil Sands, 30 Jul 10:26PM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Neil Sands, 30 Jul 10:29PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Chris Wimlett, 31 Jul 09:26AM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Graeme, 31 Jul 01:53PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 31 Jul 02:32PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 31 Jul 02:42PM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - FFB, 31 Jul 03:42PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 01 Aug 09:47AM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - kbundies, 01 Aug 11:18PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 02 Aug 02:16PM
                                                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - bashkii, 09 Aug 03:32AM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Treppenwitz, 09 Aug 06:10AM
                                                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - kbundies, 09 Aug 09:20AM
                                                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Bob Zawalich, 09 Aug 03:53PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Richard Vitale, 09 Aug 04:25PM
                                                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Richard Vitale, 09 Aug 04:56PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Robert Moody, 10 Aug 02:26AM

Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Laurence Payne - 28 Jul 04:42PM
Nearly a day with Sibelius 7, and I'm hating the ribbon just as much as I did in Office 2007. It's the worst kind of dumbing-down. It wastes a lot of space, and once you DO learn where something is it takes twice as much mouse movement to get there.

I wonder if some helpful programmer will come up with the equivalent of UBitMenu or Classic Menu?

For those of us who haven't yet found salvation from the Office ribbon, here's the links.

http://www.downloadcrew.com/article/22629-ubitmenu_for_office_2007_2010

http://www.downloadcrew.com/article/22633-classic_menu_for_office_home_and_student

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Richard Vitale - 28 Jul 04:56PM
Hi Laurence,

The last way of hiding the Ribbon (Keyboard Shortcut) was an edit I make in a post, so you may not have seen it: Control on Windows + “F1" may work.

Once the Ribbon is closed it stays close, even upon opening a new window, unless summoned.

I hope it helps with the intrusiveness :-)
------
You can also click on the little green arrow at the right top to close the Ribbon as in screenshot and the keyboard shortcut:
⌘ Command on Mac (Ctrl on Windows (I'm assuming)) + “F1“

--
Richie Vitale-Sib 6.2 User
iMac 2.66 Ghz Intel/Snow Leopard
4 GB RAM
http://www.youtube.com/user/richievitale

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Kelly Fenton - 28 Jul 04:59PM
I, too, would welcome an option to return to the Classic Menu. Having it hidden is helpful visually, but trying to find things and then implement them takes way too long.

This ribbon is definitely going to slow productivity!

--
Kelly Fenton, Bottomless Cup Music
www.bottomlesscupmusic.com

Windows Vista,8GB RAM,2.33GHz

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by randall999 - 28 Jul 05:54PM
Yes, that damn ribbon is obtrusive and slows everything down.

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Laurence Payne - 28 Jul 05:08PM
> Hi Laurence,
>
> The last way of hiding the Ribbon (Keyboard Shortcut) was an edit I make in a post, so you may not have seen it: Control on Windows + “F1" may work.

Sure, you can close it. But, as the old menus have gone, often you need to open it again! Menus are just so much more effecient and non-intrusive. OK, you had to learn where a few things were, but you do with the ribbon too.

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 28 Jul 04:57PM (edited 28 Jul 04:58PM)
Fortunately, most keyboard shortcuts have not changed from SIb 6 to Sib 7, but if you used the menus, the Ribbon can be quite disorienting.

One thing I am finding helpful with the Ribbon is using the Find in Ribbon box at the right end of the ribbon.

Type in a command, for example something you used it Sib 6 (expression, for example), and it will give you a list of places where it might be.

Select the appropriate topic, "then hit Return to be taken straight to it, or type Shift-Return to be taken to it and execute it immediately".

See screen shot.

It works great for plugins, which are now distributed around most of the tabs. You just type in a name, and typically the first item found will be the location of the plugin. If you type shift-return, it will run the plugin.

--
Bob

Sib 1.2 - 6.2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo; Audiophile 2496; 4 G RAM. Year 2011.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins; use Vista for Windows 7)
Alphabetical plugin lists: www.bobzawalich.com/DownloadPagePlugins.htm, www.bobzawalich.com/Sib6ShippingPlugins.htm
Attachment Snap1.png (350K)

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Justin Tokke - 28 Jul 05:03PM
Guys. Give it a while to acclimate. I think its the same knee-jerk reaction against Office 2007 coming to Sibelius 7. And yet, people still overwhelmingly use Office 2007 now, because the Ribbon Interface works, just not in the old way of buried menus.

--
Justin Tokke
Composer, Trombonist
http://www.justintokke.com>JustinTokke.com

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by randall999 - 28 Jul 05:53PM
I am hating that ribbon too.

I am also hating the purple colors I see everywhere. Ugly.

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Kelly Fenton - 28 Jul 06:09PM
One good thing is that the right click function to open what was the Create menu is still there. I use that more than anything. Perhaps between that option and shortcut keys we'll rarely have a need for accessing the ribbon and we can just keep it closed. Though I'm sure you are right Justin, at some point we'll all just get used to it like with Office 2007.

--
Kelly Fenton, Bottomless Cup Music
www.bottomlesscupmusic.com

Windows Vista,8GB RAM,2.33GHz

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 28 Jul 09:34PM
Try hitting Alt (or Control on Mac) and you'll see the key tips, which allow you to quickly navigate around the ribbon without using the mouse. You can learn these sequences of key tips (which, because they can use multiple keys, are actually much better mnemonics than the old Alt+letter shortcuts for menus that they replace) to help move between things quickly. You can also, as always, assign keyboard shortcuts to any feature via the Keyboard Shortcuts page of Preferences.

We fully expected that as many people -- especially existing users -- would initially hate the ribbon as would welcome it. Many people will come down against it just because it was invented by Microsoft, even if they haven't used a ribbon UI in other programs. But take a look at the included applications in Windows 7, especially the Windows Live Essentials: every one of them uses a ribbon UI. As a UI paradigm, it is growing in popularity (and not only in Microsoft applications), and in our opinion with good reason. It allows you to present a rich set of controls in a compact area, combining the best elements of menus and toolbars with aspects of more sophisticated controls from dialogs.

Anyway: we have no plans to ever reintroduce old-style menus or toolbars.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help online:
http://www.sibelius.com/helpcenter/contact.html

Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply):
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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Paolo Tramannoni - 29 Jul 12:34AM (edited 29 Jul 12:35AM)
Daniel, no way to move the ribbon from the horizontal to the vertical format? Screens are usually wider than higher, and Western music (in particular orchestral music) has the odd habit of taking much vertical space. I guess the same elements can be shown in the same space, even if it goes vertical.

Paolo

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Claude Marc Bourget - 30 Jul 05:22PM
> Daniel, no way to move the ribbon from the horizontal to the vertical format? Screens are usually wider than higher, and Western music (in particular orchestral music) has the odd habit of taking much vertical space. I guess the same elements can be shown in the same space, even if it goes vertical.
>
> Paolo

Yes, please, at least that. The worst is the filter: a funnel! And the trumpet ... My little 3 year old daughter likes, but my other 8 year old daughter found it too baby ... If Avid leads her thing with Pro-Tools is death, or the universal laughter!

Harsh words, but thought to users? We had to make a version for adults. Just look at all the look of Vienna. We feel the professional. I think Sibelius is too obsessed with the family market and confused. It must develop this market with a Sibelius-family or school, and leave the larger version for professionals. We can not do everything at the same time for all.


--
Claude Marc Bourget
www.claudemarcbourget.com

SIBELIUS 6.2 / PRO-TOOLS 9 / RME HDSP / EWQLSO PLATINUM COMPLETE PLUS / VSL Solo Strings / Xsample /
WINDOWS 7 ULTIMATE
Intel® Core™ i7-930 Processor (8M Cache, 2.80 GHz, 4.80 GT/s Intel® QPI) x 1
Gigabyte Intel X58 Motherboard (GA-X58A-UD3R) 3 Channel DDR3 x4, SATA3, USB3, 8GB Corsair DDR3 1600 Memory

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Benjamin P. - 29 Jul 02:14AM
OK, keep the ribbon. I can get used to it and might actually like having all these functions attached to the window instead of the menu bar.

But would it be possible to get rid of (or turn off) the pictures? I think they take up too much space and are shockingly ugly --- did somebody raid the MS clipart library from 1995?

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 29 Jul 07:34AM
There are certain rules about what we can and can't do with a ribbon interface, since it's a Microsoft thing (even though we have implemented it from scratch ourselves), and the MS guidelines state that every button must have an icon. Sorry that you don't like the icons, but thank for the honest feedback.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help online:
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Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply):
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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Robin Walker - 29 Jul 09:25AM
Think of a ribbon as a short fat menu, instead of a long thin one!

--
Sibelius 6.2, PhotoScore Ult 6.1, Dolet 5.6 for Sibelius, Windows 7 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Paolo Tramannoni - 29 Jul 11:09AM (edited 29 Jul 02:44PM)
Daniel,

> There are certain rules about what we can and can't do with a ribbon interface, since it's a Microsoft thing

I wonder what was wrong with the previous UI. It was the best UI on the market: nearly invisible, with palettes that could be easily placed everywhere, leaving a lot of room for the music. It was an anticipation of the modern iOS user interface. I'm frankly surprised that you abandoned your elegant ideas for Microsoft's rough ideas. It's the first time I hear their UI praised for clarity or ease of use.

Paolo

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 29 Jul 11:52AM
Give it a try, Paolo, before you decide it's irredeemable. Even if you'd been using Sibelius 7 solidly since we released the trial version, that's less than two days! There's a lot of power and sophistication in the ribbon and the rich set of controls that it provides.

You can make the ribbon just as invisible as a menu bar by minimising it (Ctrl+F1 or Command-F1), and if you used to work with the toolbar switched off, that makes the ribbon only two or three pixels larger than the old toolbar. Of course you do now have the document tab bar to contend with, but that provides a useful way to switch between open scores/parts.

I think people are generally set against the ribbon simply because Microsoft invented it, but it's a really good way of grouping related controls of different kinds, presenting them in a uniform way, and so on. Have you noticed what happens when you resize the window? Have you hit Alt (or Control on Mac) to see the key tips? Have you tried navigating around it with the keyboard? Have you noticed how the graphical galleries are really easy to use, with category filters to only show you what you want to see?

--
Contact Sibelius technical help online:
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Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply):
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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Paolo Tramannoni - 29 Jul 01:56PM
Daniel, I'll give the new interface time. I'm confident you did the usual great work. However, having dealt with how the ribbon was implemented in MsOffice (Windows version), I'm not too confident I'll really love it.

Keep in mind I'm on a Mac, and have no Microsoft apps installed on it, just because I don't like how they interact with the user. I find them a bit busy and confusing, and the abundance of icons (not always very elegantly designed) gives their apps (in my opinion) a toyish look.

It might be true that people have a bad attitude against Microsoft, buy maybe they did something to deserve it! :-)

Paolo

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Neil Sands - 29 Jul 03:50PM
> It might be true that people have a bad attitude against Microsoft, buy maybe they did something to deserve it! :-)

Maybe. That's no reason to diss Sibelius 7 without trying it though!

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Steve - 29 Jul 05:42PM
Key tips are great!

--
Sibelius 6.2, iMac - Snow Leopard and Dell XPS 420 - Windows 7. 2011.
http://ComposersofSibelius.com

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Paolo Tramannoni - 30 Jul 04:11PM
> There are certain rules about what we can and can't do with a ribbon interface, since it's a Microsoft thing

Daniel, it is for sure a Microsoft thing, and I'm sure on a Windows system this results in good coherence. The problem is that on a Mac the new UI looks like a Windows program implated to a foreign body. For example: the use of icons typical of Windows, the menu inside the document window, the use of fonts different than system fonts (if my eyes are not wrong), the solid square frame for tooltips.

A couple things, not typical of the Mac environment, make the look and functionality a bit impaired. First, the status bar, that - if I'm not wrong - cannot be hidden. Having it always show is a bit like working in a box, instead of on a free piece of paper floating on the desk. And then, the parts that open in a new tab instead of a new window; if you want to see the full score and the parts side-by-side, you have to explicitly open a new window. Not very quick with several parts.

I wonder if you can consider smoothing the UI or the Mac version a bit. Being coherent with Microsoft's guidelines on Windows in an excellent thing - as it would be staying coherent with Apple's guidelines on the Mac.

Best,
Paolo

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Neil Sands - 30 Jul 04:14PM
I don't think the ribbon is for Windows only any more than sat MS Word is (or Safari or iTunes for that matter).

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Paolo Tramannoni - 30 Jul 04:46PM (edited 30 Jul 05:05PM)
Neil, I admit I don't understand your latest sentence.

Paolo

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Richard Vitale - 30 Jul 05:54PM (edited 30 Jul 06:04PM)
I really do like the Ribbon, and if the icons were any smaller, they'd be close to useless. (Though i must admit I'm still perusing all the icon/menus on Sib 7 and working on Sib 6, which is looking a little drab these days.)

(If you look at the Menu Tabs in Final Cut you will almost for sure find yourself squinting!)
---
I've made a list of things to help people deal with the Ribbon and the last comment, in Italics, is especially useful.

To close and open the Ribbon:
1) You can click on the little green arrow at the right-top to close/open the Ribbon
2) ⌘ Command on Mac (Ctrl on Windows (I'm assuming)) + “F1“
3) Double click on a tab and it opens/close.

Also, if you single-click on a Tab the Ribbon opens, you use it (or not), and as soon as you click on the Score it disappears.

I'm finding things easy to find, especially on the Layout Tab ("Staves/Systems" arrows, Focus on Staves, "Staff Size" arrows, Optimize), that I used to have to search for in menus and sub-menus previously, often enter values in a box, push OK, see the results, and do the whole thing over again to better adjust.
---
Though I do wonder as Claude mentioned, how the choices of icons are made. I'm partial to the trumpet for "Add or Remove".

Perhaps the conversation was like this: "Hmmm, a Grand Piano might be a little too large . . . what about a trumpet? Everyone knows what that is!

"We can't use a sieve for a filter, a funnel might do, and they both start with "F"?"
---
An icon is an icon, neither childish or over-simplfying, but a "visual" tool for finding things. I do wish we each could have our own versions of our favorite programs, some w/icons, others without.

I guess I'll have to become a programmer :-)

--
Richie Vitale-Sib 6.2 User
iMac 2.66 Ghz Intel/Snow Leopard
4 GB RAM
http://www.youtube.com/user/richievitale

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 30 Jul 07:43PM
We have done our best to make Sibelius look and feel as much like a native Windows and Mac OS application as we can. We use all the default system fonts on both platforms. On Mac we use standard dialogs with native controls. We use system dialogs wherever we can. We respect system conventions and shortcuts as much as we can.

If you don't like the colours used in the icons, well, that's a matter of taste of course! Perhaps we'll make it possible to choose different sets of icons in some future version.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help online:
http://www.sibelius.com/helpcenter/contact.html

Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply):
USA & Canada: +1 650-731-6106
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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Claude Marc Bourget - 30 Jul 07:54PM
Dear Daniel, is more than just a matter of taste. It is more objective. It's a matter of policy, guidelines, philosophy. The image must be a reflection of the content. An serious image for a serious software. The icons selected do not give a serious image. It is an objective truth. Therefore the users can much criticism. So many people can not all be wrong together. But a company can make a "faux pas" (a "bad step", although it may be followed by a good). Sibelius is a marvel, and it is a little too to its old users.

--
Claude Marc Bourget
www.claudemarcbourget.com

SIBELIUS 6.2 / PRO-TOOLS 9 / RME HDSP / EWQLSO PLATINUM COMPLETE PLUS / VSL Solo Strings / Xsample /
WINDOWS 7 ULTIMATE
Intel® Core™ i7-930 Processor (8M Cache, 2.80 GHz, 4.80 GT/s Intel® QPI) x 1
Gigabyte Intel X58 Motherboard (GA-X58A-UD3R) 3 Channel DDR3 x4, SATA3, USB3, 8GB Corsair DDR3 1600 Memory

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 30 Jul 07:58PM
No, Claude Marc, I'm sorry, but there's nothing objective about your opinion of whether you like the icons in Sibelius 7. You're certainly welcome not to like them, but that doesn't make your opinion an objective truth.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help online:
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Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply):
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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Claude Marc Bourget - 30 Jul 09:37PM
We are not going to the same school, my friend. The "pictorial science" has references. It also has a history. It also has concepts. There is a naive art, for example, or a great art. We can not see, but you can see. With version 7, Sibelius left with text menus to enter the menus with illustrations. It is a strategic choice, but that does not mean that Sibelius is suddenly a professional on this. I have 30 years experience in graphic design. The chance that this is my first job, one that pays me. Any table discussion with professionals, will tell you that your interface is childish. If this is your decision, the issue of marketing must take. But do not hide behind subjectivity. The English language is not my language and it's hard for me. I wear a lot of respect for your work. But this graphic choice is not in the philosophical line of your software, at least before the arrival of Avid. I stop here to answer on this. I will focus on the benefits of Sibelius 7, as 64 bits.

--
Claude Marc Bourget
www.claudemarcbourget.com

SIBELIUS 6.2 / PRO-TOOLS 9 / RME HDSP / EWQLSO PLATINUM COMPLETE PLUS / VSL Solo Strings / Xsample /
WINDOWS 7 ULTIMATE
Intel® Core™ i7-930 Processor (8M Cache, 2.80 GHz, 4.80 GT/s Intel® QPI) x 1
Gigabyte Intel X58 Motherboard (GA-X58A-UD3R) 3 Channel DDR3 x4, SATA3, USB3, 8GB Corsair DDR3 1600 Memory

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Neil Sands - 30 Jul 10:34PM
If you need 30 years' worth of experience in graphic design to qualify to have an opinion, then that opinion can't be objective. Most (probably almost all) Sibelius users won't be seeing the ribbon icons through such highly-trained eyes as yours & won't be forced to see them your way.

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Neil Sands - 30 Jul 10:26PM
> The icons selected do not give a serious image. It is an objective truth.

No it isn't!

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Neil Sands - 30 Jul 10:29PM (edited 30 Jul 10:35PM)
> Neil, I admit I don't understand your latest sentence.

There was a typo in it Paolo, which wouldn't have made understanding me any easier!

What I was saying is that the ribbon isn't a Windows thing. It's by Microsoft, but it's not solely a feature of Windows. MS Word, iTunes & Safari are other examples of programming written by Microsoft & Apple for each other's platforms.

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Chris Wimlett - 31 Jul 09:26AM
I must say that after less than a day with Sibelius 7, I've come to really like the new look. Being a Mac user this is the first time I've come across a ribbon (I think), but it seems very good in this implementation. The File menu in particular seems easier to navigate. All subjective, but I think it looks very smart, and till much less cluttered than Finale.

--
Sibelius 6.2.0, Logic 9, Cubase 6, Mac OS X 10.6.7, iMac 3.06 Ghz, 4Gb RAM, Apogee Duet, Yamaha S90

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Graeme - 31 Jul 01:53PM
What a fascinating discussion, full of many cultural aspects; it's easy for me to see both sides of the recent exchange. Perhaps the only decider is a UI experiment with eye-trackers and the like (but then who do we test, experienced Sibelius users or people fresh to the program?).

On my end, having only played with Sib7 a little (but much used to the earlier versions), since most of my recent stuff has been dealing with orchestral scores, it'd be nice to consider a future _option_ of a narrower ribbon (instead of only on/off). Its current depth is a tad much for such scores (I'm happy to experiment with clicking it on or off, but if I believe the opinions of those who favour it, then having some version of it would be valuable -- at the moment, I have no real opinion for or against, save for the space it takes).

G

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Paolo Tramannoni - 31 Jul 02:32PM (edited 31 Jul 11:10PM)
> since most of my recent stuff has been dealing with orchestral scores, it'd be nice to consider a future _option_ of a narrower ribbon

Being mainly a composer of orchestral scores, I share your view. I guess a solution could be a true full screen mode (at least on the Mac): no menubar, no minimized ribbon, no scrollbars, no status bar. Just the score you are writing. All considered, what are scrollbars for, when you use the handy mouse/trackpad to scroll?

As per Apple's guidelines, the menubar (and, alas, by extension the ribbon) could appear when the mouse pointer move in that area. The same with scrollbars: let them appear only when the mouse hovers on them. It works fine with other full screen apps on the Mac, so it could work fine in Sibelius.

Paolo

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Paolo Tramannoni - 31 Jul 02:42PM (edited 31 Jul 11:11PM)
> What I was saying is that the ribbon isn't a Windows thing. It's by Microsoft, but it's not solely a feature of Windows

Neil, thank you for clarifying. But I think that adopting a different UI concept is different from making applications for competitor's operating systems. The issue, here, is avoiding an app ported to a different system to look like an extraneous body.

Apple has always been very stringent with their UI guidelines, and Mac users have learnt to expect the same UI in all the apps they use. Microsoft themselves have tried to be as coherent as they could with Office (in my opinion, without too much success).

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/nadyne/archive/2010/02/18/why-is-office-mac-getting-the-ribbon.aspx

As a first impression, I don't think Sibelius 7 has a true Mac UI. It is not only the general appearance (that makes it look like some open source apps more than like refined commercial apps), but it is the usability itselft that is different. I understand Daniel doesn't agree, but I hope to be more detailed in the next few days to make him get my concerns. He will probably not change his mind, but I prefer to be sure I express them in the clearest way.

Paolo

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by FFB - 31 Jul 03:42PM (edited 31 Jul 03:50PM)
I personally haven't tried the ribbon yet, but have only looked at the images on the website. I would wish however that Sibelius went for smaller icons, dark blue or black and white, instead of purple. But the design seems well implemented. I would like the option to go back to text only because when I write I want to see only my score and not be distracted by graphics.

I have one question about the Ribbon:
Is it possible to have the ribbon on a second monitor?
I was very scared when I read "Optimized for single monitor use" as I work with 3 monitor here (2 scores windows and 1 for tools).

My other worries are simply about the marketing.
When I hear "Sibelius 7 makes creating scores fast, easy and fun" a chill goes up my spine. We all know here the professional aspect of Sibelius, and how well designed that software is. But every Finale user I've met actually think Finale is more professional. If they would look at the large purple icons, the poor choice of demoed scores layout, and hear the (forgive me) horrible orchestra renditions of the new sounds, there is no way they would switch. However, when they see my scores they wonder how I made them that way (flexibility is really Sibelius's strength and a good demo of different professional orchestra score would be a good publicity move to convert the skeptics).

Sibelius is easy to use, everyone knows this, but you could also show in your marketing how Sibelius is the cream of the cream in terms of professional results.

Features I will buy Sibelius 7 for:
New text alignment options
Imported graphics that can be saved as symbols
64 bit

Features I have been waiting for:
1- The ability to decide if the next note you will input is a sharp or a flat (right now if you select a # and press A# on your keyboard Sibelius will enter a B flat - that's just not logical).

2- The ability to attach midi commands on symbols and lines, like in Finale.

3- Custom Keypad Layers

Thanks,
F.

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 01 Aug 09:47AM
I make no apologies for the fact that we want Sibelius to appeal to as wide a group of musicians as possible, and yes, it should be acceptable for using computer software to be fun. I also don't think there is any kind of mutual exclusion between software capable of producing professional results, and software that is easy, or even fun, to use.

We've added a couple of new orchestral examples to the Sibelius 7 Sounds page on the web site, by the way, produced by people more skilled in such matters than me. Hopefully they will start to provide more of an insight into the true quality of the library, which really is excellent:

http://www.sibelius.com/products/sibelius/7/professional_sound_library.html

More examples will be forthcoming over the next couple of days.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help online:
http://www.sibelius.com/helpcenter/contact.html

Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply):
USA & Canada: +1 650-731-6106
UK: +44 (0)20 7561 7997
Australia: 1300 652 172
Other countries: www.sibelius.com/support

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by kbundies - 01 Aug 11:18PM
to add another aspect:
My personal learning curve so far:
1.) use the menus
2.) while using the menus, trying to learn the shortkeys
3.) use the shortkeys
Very helpful is the advice in one of the very well written printed Sibelius handbooks ”hide your computer mouse in the fridge“ and try to run the program without it.

Actually this advice helped me also with my general use of the computer.

In Sibelius 7, is there a way to learn the shortkeys whilst using the ribbon commands?

--
Sibelius 6.2.0 on Mac OSX 10.6.8

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 02 Aug 02:16PM
If you hit Alt (Windows) or Control (Mac), the key tips appear.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help online:
http://www.sibelius.com/helpcenter/contact.html

Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply):
USA & Canada: +1 650-731-6106
UK: +44 (0)20 7561 7997
Australia: 1300 652 172
Other countries: www.sibelius.com/support

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by bashkii - 09 Aug 03:32AM
Sibelius IS THE most colossal piece of software ever created, guys! so, stop complaining!! Possibly even bigger than Photoshop!!!


--
Sibelius 6.2
iMac 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
OS X 10.6.8

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Treppenwitz - 09 Aug 06:10AM
> 3.) use the shortkeys
> Very helpful is the advice in one of the very well written printed Sibelius handbooks ”hide your computer mouse in the fridge“ and try to run the program without it.
>
> Actually this advice helped me also with my general use of the computer.
>


I've gone the opposite direction. Last year I purchased an 18 button programmable "gamer" mouse (the "WarMouse") and mapped my most used keyboard shortcuts to the mouse buttons. I rarely have to touch my computer keyboard now. I'm glad to see that all of the mouse button commands I've tried still work in Sib 7. I'm not a gamer so some of the mouse features are lost on me, but the mouse has really sped up my Sibelius workflow.


--
Win7 64-bit i7 2.67GHz | RAM: 8GB | HDD: 500 GB x 6 | Sib 7 | EMU-1820 soundcard with ASIO drivers
http://www.delengen.com

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by kbundies - 09 Aug 09:20AM
.. sounds interesting.

--
Sibelius 6.2.0 on Mac OSX 10.6.8

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 09 Aug 03:53PM
See also: http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/use-your-ipad-as-a-sibelius-control-surface/

--
Bob

Sib 1.2 - 7, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo; Audiophile 2496; 4 G RAM. Year 2011.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins; use Vista for Windows 7)
Alphabetical plugin lists: www.bobzawalich.com/DownloadPagePlugins.htm, www.bobzawalich.com/Sib6ShippingPlugins.htm

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Richard Vitale - 09 Aug 04:25PM (edited 13 Aug 05:32PM)
> Very helpful is the advice in one of the very well written printed Sibelius handbooks ”hide your computer mouse in the fridge“ and try to run the program without it.>

I've gone the opposite way - I've hidden my computer in the fridge and just play with the mouse . . . .

--
Richie Vitale-Sib 6.2 User
iMac 2.66 Ghz Intel/Snow Leopard
4 GB RAM
http://www.youtube.com/user/richievitale

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Richard Vitale - 09 Aug 04:56PM
Re: the Finale comment:
> But every Finale user I've met actually think Finale is more professional. >

When I switched to Sibelius in 2005 I thought there were a couple of things, as a copyist, that looked more professional in Finale. Though Sibelius has caught up and perhaps surpassed Finale in some of these areas. (It's so long ago, and I can't get my Midi to work with Finale without being reminded about learning it's operation with 5 books open.)

But Finale was also boring and tedious (to me). I have said in the past, I couldn't wait to get home and compose/arrange on Sebelius.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying yourself at your work station. But I do feel for the people who find the Ribbon childish and distracting.

Hopefully, some good will come from a post that is not just belly-aching, but full of (sometimes) useful suggestions and discontent with a program they feel has grown with them, but suddenly has taken a left turn.

The Ribbon is here to stay, but perhaps it will be customizable in the future so distractions can be minimized. But that will take time :-)

--
Richie Vitale-Sib 6.2 User
iMac 2.66 Ghz Intel/Snow Leopard
4 GB RAM
http://www.youtube.com/user/richievitale

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Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon!
Posted by Robert Moody - 10 Aug 02:26AM

> Anyway: we have no plans to ever reintroduce old-style menus or toolbars.

Amen and Amen. I love the ribbon. I was one of those distraught with the Microsoft move, but being a "geek" resource to many people around me, I forced myself to play with it. It QUICKLY became intuitive and I love it.

I think it is a good move by Avid/Sibelius to move to it and love their decisions for grouping in the tabs.

Now...if I could find a way for it to work on XP platforms. Grrr. Schools are reluctant to upgrade operating systems and I have to workshop interested groups in version 6. Grrr.

Robert

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Messages in this thread

Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Laurence Payne, 28 Jul 04:42PM
     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Richard Vitale, 28 Jul 04:56PM
         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Kelly Fenton, 28 Jul 04:59PM
             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - randall999, 28 Jul 05:54PM
         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Laurence Payne, 28 Jul 05:08PM
     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Bob Zawalich, 28 Jul 04:57PM
         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Justin Tokke, 28 Jul 05:03PM
     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - randall999, 28 Jul 05:53PM
         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Kelly Fenton, 28 Jul 06:09PM
             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 28 Jul 09:34PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 29 Jul 12:34AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Claude Marc Bourget, 30 Jul 05:22PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Benjamin P., 29 Jul 02:14AM
                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 29 Jul 07:34AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Robin Walker, 29 Jul 09:25AM
                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 29 Jul 11:09AM
                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 29 Jul 11:52AM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 29 Jul 01:56PM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Neil Sands, 29 Jul 03:50PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Steve, 29 Jul 05:42PM
                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 30 Jul 04:11PM
                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Neil Sands, 30 Jul 04:14PM
                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 30 Jul 04:46PM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Richard Vitale, 30 Jul 05:54PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 30 Jul 07:43PM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Claude Marc Bourget, 30 Jul 07:54PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 30 Jul 07:58PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Claude Marc Bourget, 30 Jul 09:37PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Neil Sands, 30 Jul 10:34PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Neil Sands, 30 Jul 10:26PM
                                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Neil Sands, 30 Jul 10:29PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Chris Wimlett, 31 Jul 09:26AM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Graeme, 31 Jul 01:53PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 31 Jul 02:32PM
                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Paolo Tramannoni, 31 Jul 02:42PM
                                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - FFB, 31 Jul 03:42PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 01 Aug 09:47AM
                                                     Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - kbundies, 01 Aug 11:18PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Daniel Spreadbury, 02 Aug 02:16PM
                                                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - bashkii, 09 Aug 03:32AM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Treppenwitz, 09 Aug 06:10AM
                                                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - kbundies, 09 Aug 09:20AM
                                                                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Bob Zawalich, 09 Aug 03:53PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Richard Vitale, 09 Aug 04:25PM
                                                             Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Richard Vitale, 09 Aug 04:56PM
                 Re: Sib. 7.0: The blasted Ribbon! - Robert Moody, 10 Aug 02:26AM