'White notation (French Baroque style)'

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White notation (French Baroque style) - kmmsf, 22 Oct 04:52AM
     Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - kmmsf, 22 Oct 04:53AM
         Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - Wim Hoogewerf, 22 Oct 06:31AM
             Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - Jeremy Hughes, 22 Oct 09:01AM
                 Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - kmmsf, 22 Oct 06:55PM
                     Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - Jeremy Hughes, 22 Oct 07:22PM
                         Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - kmmsf, 28 Oct 10:04PM
                             Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - Jeremy Hughes, 29 Oct 12:20AM
                                 Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - remealy, 30 Oct 06:58PM
                                     Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - remealy, 30 Oct 07:09PM

White notation (French Baroque style)
Posted by kmmsf - 22 Oct 04:52AM
Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere, but if so, I cannot find the answer. I am trying to create French Baroque style white notation - passages in 3/2 meter with regular whole and half notes, but with quarter, eighth, and smaller notes using white noteheads rather than black. I have tried to create a new notehead style (Edit Noteheads) but am not successful in getting all three of these options (whole note, half note, white quarter note) in the same notehead style. Does anyone know if this is possible, and if so, how to do it? The attached file shows what I am trying to do, but if you look closely, you can see stray marks above or below each whole note - this is because the stems won't disappear completely. I need to find a way to achieve this look but without the floating bits of stems. Many thanks for any help! (I use Sib 5.2, but have just upgraded to 6, on Mac. Answers for either version would be great!)

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Re: White notation (French Baroque style)
Posted by kmmsf - 22 Oct 04:53AM
Seems that the file did not attach.... trying again....

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Re: White notation (French Baroque style)
Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 22 Oct 06:31AM (edited 22 Oct 06:32AM)
This may be of some help (to see what has been done already)
http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=442746&groupid=3&words=mensural&name=#442746

To make the stem disappear, this should works: Properties > Notes > Noteheads > Stemless

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Re: White notation (French Baroque style)
Posted by Jeremy Hughes - 22 Oct 09:01AM
Hi there

Re: file attachment

Check that your score file is not above 1MB in size (it may easily be so if you have saved many versions of a small score, for instance). If it is, export a single version as a score, and/or cut it down to a single line of music.

Hope that helps

Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
Sibelius 6.2 | iMac | OS X Version 10.6.4 Snow Leopard

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Re: White notation (French Baroque style)
Posted by kmmsf - 22 Oct 06:55PM
Wim - thank you for the link. It does not have what I need right now, but it has many other things I will find useful later, so I am grateful to know of it. As for Properties > Notes, I do not have an option for Noteheads - just Accidental. If you mean under Edit Notehead Style, what happens is if you switch off stems for one value (eg whole note) then the stems also switch off for the half and quarter. Is there a way around this?

Jeremy - I'm trying once more to attach. It's a new file and hopefully will attach as well as be clearer:

1st line - the actual, correct rhythms and notes
2nd line - the desired look (minus the stray note stem remnants)
3rd line - the way I got line 2 - using 3/4 note values, then changing the notehead style

Thanks to any and all for advice!
Attachment white notation sample.sib (50K)

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Re: White notation (French Baroque style)
Posted by Jeremy Hughes - 22 Oct 07:22PM
Hi there

Annotated score attached, with advice to use a separate notehead style for whole notes, and to use a different method for fake time signatures.

Hope that helps

Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
Sibelius 6.2 | iMac | OS X Version 10.6.4 Snow Leopard
Attachment WhiteNotation.sib (50K)

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Re: White notation (French Baroque style)
Posted by kmmsf - 28 Oct 10:04PM
Thanks again, Jeremy. I was able to get it all to work. However, I'm wondering, is this something that Sibelius might consider in the future? I know I am not the only person transcribing 18th cent French white notation these days, and the process of halving note values, then inputting in 3/4 time, then changing notehead styles, then filtering whole notes and dotted whole notes and changing those note heads separately.... it's a long process, and complicated, and, more importantly, creates so many more steps during which errors can creep in... It would be great if this is something that could be considered in future developments. Thanks!

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Re: White notation (French Baroque style)
Posted by Jeremy Hughes - 29 Oct 12:20AM
Hi

I'm glad it worked.

I don't have any idea what Sibelius will do in the future, but I would not hold your breath.

'Classical' music is a subset of the Sibelius market; baroque is a subset of that, and baroque music in Urtext using no-longer-standard notation is a microsubset of that.

It seems to me that it's not likely to rise to the top of the (lengthy) wishlist unless it's currently impossible to do, and there are relatively large numbers of people clamouring for it.

And you can do this relatively easily already (compared with the kinds of workarounds that are required for some modern notation). Even if more errors are creeping in, proof-reading and correcting are still happening (I hope!), and take on the same order of time. I don't see it as a huge problem.

Sorry to be negative about it.

Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
Sibelius 6.2 | iMac | OS X Version 10.6.4 Snow Leopard

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Re: White notation (French Baroque style)
Posted by remealy - 30 Oct 06:58PM
here's the best workaround i've come up with for white notation. i have to use this a good deal.

- House Style / Edit Notehead / New
- name it white notation or something
- highlight quarter note, click "change symbol"
- in the "noteheads" part of the symbols menu, find the white half-note notehead & highlight it, click "ok"
- highlight halfnote / Change Symbol / choose whole note from noteheads in symbol menu
- hit OK

This will then be set 31 in yr Noteheads menu.

- highlight the 3/4 passage you want to makeinto white notation, hit Shift-Option-31 (use top row of number keys not number pad, just enter 3 then 1)

- now everything's white, but the half notes & dotted halves still have stems.

- in the Edit menu, go to Filter/Advanced Filter

- select all the half notes at once, then all the dotted halves (under Note Values: Single)

- hit Shift-Option-8 to make them stemless.

done. settting up the new noteheads is the only laborious part - other than that it's fairly quick.

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Re: White notation (French Baroque style)
Posted by remealy - 30 Oct 07:09PM (edited 30 Oct 07:11PM)
i should have added:

it's easiest to enter the passage first in 3/4, because of note stems and spacing issues. then follow the recipe above.

after you've done, you can change the time signature of that section without altering anything else by:

- click on 3/4 time signature, delete: Sib will query "do you want to rewrite the following bars?" click on "No"

- highlight the first bar, hit T for time signature menu, use "other" = 3/2, ** uncheck "rewrite bars up to next time signature"

this will simply change the time signature, not the note values.

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Messages in this thread

White notation (French Baroque style) - kmmsf, 22 Oct 04:52AM
     Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - kmmsf, 22 Oct 04:53AM
         Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - Wim Hoogewerf, 22 Oct 06:31AM
             Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - Jeremy Hughes, 22 Oct 09:01AM
                 Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - kmmsf, 22 Oct 06:55PM
                     Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - Jeremy Hughes, 22 Oct 07:22PM
                         Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - kmmsf, 28 Oct 10:04PM
                             Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - Jeremy Hughes, 29 Oct 12:20AM
                                 Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - remealy, 30 Oct 06:58PM
                                     Re: White notation (French Baroque style) - remealy, 30 Oct 07:09PM