'Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur'

Messages in this thread

Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Milos Betko, 10 Aug 12:22PM
     Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Andy G, 10 Aug 02:02PM
         Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Peter McAleer, 10 Aug 02:29PM
             Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Milos Betko, 10 Aug 02:43PM
                 Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Peter McAleer, 10 Aug 04:20PM
                     Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Mats, 10 Aug 05:04PM
                         Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Ronald Pearl, 10 Aug 05:22PM
                             Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Mats, 10 Aug 06:24PM
                                 Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Peter McAleer, 10 Aug 06:30PM
                                     Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Mats, 10 Aug 07:49PM
                                         Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Andy G, 10 Aug 09:46PM
                                             Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Milos Betko, 11 Aug 08:32AM
                                                 Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Mats, 11 Aug 08:44AM
                                                     Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Ronald Pearl, 11 Aug 03:17PM

Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Milos Betko - 10 Aug 12:22PM
A composer wants to have vertical slur on the right side of the chord to express that the arpeggio has to be played legato. When I try to do that using a slur line from Lines, I am not able to shift the lower/right end of the slur exactly under the upper/left end of the slur, to have both ends aligned in a column. Are there any tricks to do that?

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Sib 6.1.0, WinXP Pro SP2, 2.4 GHz Pentium 4, 1 GB RAM
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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Andy G - 10 Aug 02:02PM
How about using a plain right handed bracket in a suitable text font?

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Q6700 @ 3.2GHz 4GB RAM. XP Pro SP2. Terratec/M-Audio cards. Laptop: 1.8Ghz P-M,1GB RAM. XP Home SP2. Echo Indigo I/O soundcard. Both: Sib 6.2, Cubase SX3 and 5, and many VSTi's!

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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Peter McAleer - 10 Aug 02:29PM
There's a good size right hand parenthesis mark in Symbols. But it's not resizable.

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Peter McAleer: composer - choral director - teacher - Sibelius user.
Sibelius 6.1; iMac 2.8 GHz intel Core Duo + Apple Cinema HD; 2 GB RAM; OS 10.6.3

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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Milos Betko - 10 Aug 02:43PM
There are many different chords in the score. So, I am looking for the resizable solution. In adition, it always has to look like a normal slur (I am speaking about the thickenss of the slur).

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Sib 6.1.0, WinXP Pro SP2, 2.4 GHz Pentium 4, 1 GB RAM

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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Peter McAleer - 10 Aug 04:20PM
I see your point.

You could make a graphic of an horizontal slur of the correct length, flip it 90 degrees in some simple graphics application, and re-import it. Not the most elegant of solutions but it may well work OK. See attached image for my own mock-up

Sorry I can't be of more use to you - you can't be the first with this problem as I've seem this kind of notation before.
--
Peter McAleer: composer - choral director - teacher - Sibelius user.
Sibelius 6.1; iMac 2.8 GHz intel Core Duo + Apple Cinema HD; 2 GB RAM; OS 10.6.3
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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Mats - 10 Aug 05:04PM
Peter's solution is quite good. It will not always be a correct slur in dimensions etc. but very very close.
(A modern piece?)

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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Ronald Pearl - 10 Aug 05:22PM
I can't add anything to the above, but I do wonder about the use of the symbol - how could an arpeggio symbol not imply (strongly) that it be played legato? If it were otherwise, it would take a lot of precise marking to get an arpeggio that wasn't legato. The composer may well have a good reason for wanting this symbol, but legato shouldn't, perhaps, be one of them.

Have to admit, I am curious about this one.

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Ron Pearl
6.1, Mac OS 10.4, G5 1.8Ghz, 2G RAM, GPO, JABB
http://web.mac.com/ronpearl

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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Mats - 10 Aug 06:24PM
Ron have a point. It's easier to write a note at the beginning of the piece like "Arppegio should be played legato" (if needed) and leave out the excessive notation. I think it is a modern piece, they often include "creative notation". Possibly Milo wants them to be played "espressivo" instead of quickly. The slur makes it not clearer to me. Vertical "slurs" resemble parenthesis and they are, since long time back, notation for optional notes or similar. The vert. slur will be more confusing than explanatory, at least without a note, and then they are just redundant anyway. All in IMHO.

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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Peter McAleer - 10 Aug 06:30PM
I think it's an old idea - I think I've seen it in Schubert instead of the arpeggiation symbol, not in conjunction with.

Whatever reason Milos has, I do believe it's something you should be able to do much more easily than this.

--
Peter McAleer: composer - choral director - teacher - Sibelius user.
Sibelius 6.1; iMac 2.8 GHz intel Core Duo + Apple Cinema HD; 2 GB RAM; OS 10.6.3

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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Mats - 10 Aug 07:49PM
When x for start and end point is the same the Sib. bezier algorithm tend to be 'odd'... I cannot see any other way to get slur shapes, than using... slurs... that does not accept identical x for start and end. Well, ... actually it goes crazy long before x2 becomes x1. Don't know why. There is no apparent logic to the behaviour. For me this notation is of little importance, IMO there are much more important things to fix in regards to (slur) engraving in Sib. Can Finale do this notation?

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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Andy G - 10 Aug 09:46PM (edited 10 Aug 09:49PM)
I tried out my idea, using a variety of fonts. This example used Perpetua. If the range of the arpeggios isn't too wide, I think this works quite well, and is of course resizable, but the width of the slur gets a little too much if it has to span a lot of notes.

I have to say that I'm with Mats and Ron on this. The vertical slur isn't necessary here, IMHO. I've seen them used at the left of the notes instead of the arpeegio line, but usually only for two notes.

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Q6700 @ 3.2GHz 4GB RAM. XP Pro SP2. Terratec/M-Audio cards. Laptop: 1.8Ghz P-M,1GB RAM. XP Home SP2. Echo Indigo I/O soundcard. Both: Sib 6.2, Cubase SX3 and 5, and many VSTi's!
Attachment vertical slur.jpg (27K)

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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Milos Betko - 11 Aug 08:32AM (edited 11 Aug 08:34AM)
The vertical slurs are in the piano pieces of one of most important Slovak composer Eugen Suchon http://www.suchon.info/. It was quite easy to write the vertical slur in the old days, but we have problems now with notation softwares. I agree with all of you that the sign is not very clear and maybe unnecessary and could be replaced by a short note. But the publisher wants me to make an exact digital copy of an earlier printed score made by classical engraving process.

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Sib 6.1.0, WinXP Pro SP2, 2.4 GHz Pentium 4, 1 GB RAM

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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Mats - 11 Aug 08:44AM
Some scores will be difficult to do verbatim in Sib. Try the font, the import graphic, or post-processing methods to add the slurs.

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Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur
Posted by Ronald Pearl - 11 Aug 03:17PM
I have seen the vertical slur in keyboard music - not too common, but it is used at times. And if Milo's publisher wants it that way, then that's what he needs to do. I wonder if creating a set of them along Peter's idea would work. Create a number of them, differently sized; you could then just alt-click them into place when needed, instead of creating them anew each time. I know users who work with contemporary wind instruments, and they do this for all the alternate fingerings and such.

Anyway, glad to have the "why" cleared up.

--
Ron Pearl
6.1, Mac OS 10.4, G5 1.8Ghz, 2G RAM, GPO, JABB
http://web.mac.com/ronpearl

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Messages in this thread

Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Milos Betko, 10 Aug 12:22PM
     Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Andy G, 10 Aug 02:02PM
         Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Peter McAleer, 10 Aug 02:29PM
             Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Milos Betko, 10 Aug 02:43PM
                 Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Peter McAleer, 10 Aug 04:20PM
                     Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Mats, 10 Aug 05:04PM
                         Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Ronald Pearl, 10 Aug 05:22PM
                             Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Mats, 10 Aug 06:24PM
                                 Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Peter McAleer, 10 Aug 06:30PM
                                     Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Mats, 10 Aug 07:49PM
                                         Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Andy G, 10 Aug 09:46PM
                                             Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Milos Betko, 11 Aug 08:32AM
                                                 Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Mats, 11 Aug 08:44AM
                                                     Re: Sib. 6.2: Vertical slur - Ronald Pearl, 11 Aug 03:17PM