Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Willy Dalton - 03 Jul 09:51PM Hide picture The guitar chord "improvements" in v.6 are still bugging me. I enter the chord name Cm9+7 and Cm9maj7 and Sibelius recognizes neither as a legitimate chord--the chord name is highlighted in red and no diagrams are offered. When I attempt to "edit chord diagram" using the key I have set up for that I get the edit chord diagram window but there's no editable guitar diagram in the window (see attached png). This is a legitimate and very common chord--B on the 4th string, 9th fret, Eb on the 3rd string, 8th fret, G on the 2nd string, 8th fret, and D on the 1st string, 10th fret. I'm going to edit the Cmmaj7 diagram which Sibelius recognizes to add the 9th. -- http://web.me.com/wvdalt/Life/index.html Attachment chorddiagram.png (49K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 03 Jul 11:28PM Hide picture I'll make a note of these chord types and we'll see whether they should be added to Sibelius's list of types in a future version. -- Contact Sibelius technical help by email: http://www.avid.com/us/support/sf-login-digi Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply): USA & Canada: +1 650-731-6106 UK: +44 (0)20 7561 7997 Australia: 1300 652 172 Other countries: www.sibelius.com/support Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Willy Dalton - 03 Jul 11:43PM (edited 03 Jul 11:43PM) Hide picture Thanks Daniel--I'm pretty sure Cm9maj7 or Cm9+7 was included in the v.5 chords. > I'll make a note of these chord types and we'll see whether they should be added to Sibelius's list of types in a future version. > http://web.me.com/wvdalt/Life/index.html Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Bob Zawalich - 04 Jul 01:23AM Hide picture In v5 you could just type whatever you wanted, and you can still do that in v6 by using legacy chord symbols (Create > Text > Other Staff text > Chord Symbols. Such chord symbols cannot have chord diagrams, but otherwise they behave just as chord symbols did in v5. -- Bob Sib 1.4 - 6.2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo; Audiophile 2496; 4 G RAM. Year 2010. I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software. Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins) Alphabetical plugin list: www.bobzawalich.com/AllPluginsOnDownloadPage.htm Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Willy Dalton - 04 Jul 01:52AM Hide picture Yes I know I can type any chord name I want but the lack of a diagram is the problem--I'm doing this for students. This is not some kind of esoteric, off-the-wall chord--a Cminor chord with an added B--the major 7th--and the 9th, D, on top. In fact I think it's the 2nd chord in Stairway To Heaven (although in A minor). > In v5 you could just type whatever you wanted, and you can still do that in v6 by using legacy chord symbols (Create > Text > Other Staff text > Chord Symbols. > > Such chord symbols cannot have chord diagrams, but otherwise they behave just as chord symbols did in v5. > > -- > Bob -- http://web.me.com/wvdalt/Life/index.html Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Bob Zawalich - 04 Jul 02:53AM Hide picture Are not both chords you named comparable to Cm (maj9) (C Eb G B D)? This seems to me to be a simpler way to name it, but you are of course welcome to name chords as you choose. You can enter Cm(maj9) perfectly well as a Sib 6 chord symbol, and get a diagram for it. You can them remove the text from the diagram (Edit > Chord Symbol > Add or Remove Text) so you just have the diagram. Now use legacy a chord symbol to use the name you want to call it. I grant it is not as convenient as having your chord names in the library, but it is probably impossible to have Sib recognize *all* possible spellings, and this actually works fairly well. I note that in Sib 5, for a chord diagram, you could have entered a C minor9 maj7, but I see no way to get a diagram named Cm9+7. You could get just the name for either, but you can do that in Sib 6 as well with legacy chords. The screenshot shows my workaround. -- Bob Sib 1.4 - 6.2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo; Audiophile 2496; 4 G RAM. Year 2010. I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software. Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins) Alphabetical plugin list: www.bobzawalich.com/AllPluginsOnDownloadPage.htm Attachment Snap1.png (25K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Willy Dalton - 04 Jul 03:56AM (edited 04 Jul 03:56AM) Hide picture I guess by Cm (maj9) you mean the 7th is major but that is not a standard guitar voicing. I play the instrument for a living and work with many well known artists who bring charts to be sight read and I can guarantee "Cm (maj9") is not a standard notation voicing. Cm9 means a C minor 7th chord with the 9th added. I guess you want me to think that Cm (maj9) means a C minor 9ths chord with the 7th raised a half step--believe me that is an unusual way to describe that chord. In fact I have never seen it until your post. > Are not both chords you named comparable to Cm (maj9) (C Eb G B D)? This seems to me to be a simpler way to name it, but you are of course welcome to name chords as you choose. > > You can enter Cm(maj9) perfectly well as a Sib 6 chord symbol, and get a diagram for it. You can them remove the text from the diagram (Edit > Chord Symbol > Add or Remove Text) so you just have the diagram. Now use legacy a chord symbol to use the name you want to call it. > > I note that in Sib 5, for a chord diagram, you could have entered a C minor9 maj7, but I see no way to get a diagram named Cm9+7. You could get just the name for either, but you can do that in Sib 6 as well with legacy chords. > > The screenshot shows my workaround. > > -- > Bob > > Sib 1.4 - 6.2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo; Audiophile 2496; 4 G RAM. Year 2010. > I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software. > Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins) > Alphabetical plugin list: www.bobzawalich.com/AllPluginsOnDownloadPage.htm -- http://web.me.com/wvdalt/Life/index.html Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Bob Zawalich - 04 Jul 04:14AM Hide picture Sorry, but I see it all the time. It is similar to Cm(maj7). Also, a major9 is a 9th chord with a major 7th interval (there is no "major 9th" interval), and Cm (maj9) is essentially a major 9 chord with a minor 3rd. Or a Cm(maj7) with an added 9th. Cm9 indeed indicates a m7 interval from the root, which is one reason I did not care for names like Cm9+7. By the time I read Cm9 I had assumed a m7, and then it got changed. But there are millions of way to name any chord, and different people have different reasons for why they prefer one over the other. I have no objection with you not wanting to call the chord Cm(maj9), but it is really a more common nomenclature than you might think. Just a quick look in Google reveals something like this - look at the description of 9ths. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_notation And regardless, it is a chord naming that Sibelius accepts so it should at least allow you to get the chord diagram you want until/if they add your preferred namings to Sibelius. Which is the only reason I brought it up. -- Bob Sib 1.4 - 6.2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo; Audiophile 2496; 4 G RAM. Year 2010. I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software. Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins) Alphabetical plugin list: www.bobzawalich.com/AllPluginsOnDownloadPage.htm Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Willy Dalton - 04 Jul 04:25AM Hide picture Check the attached png to see how the chord is named in My Funny Valentine and What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life in the Real Book. I have absolutely never seen it written as Cm(maj9)--can you give me an example of a chart where the chord is written that way? > Sorry, but I see it all the time. It is similar to Cm(maj7). Also, a major9 is a 9th chord with a major 7th interval (there is no "major 9th" interval), and Cm (maj9) is essentially a major 9 chord with a minor 3rd. Or a Cm(maj7) with an added 9th. > > Cm9 indeed indicates a m7 interval from the root, which is one reason I did not care for names like Cm9+7. By the time I read Cm9 I had assumed a m7, and then it got changed. > > But there are millions of way to name any chord, and different people have different reasons for why they prefer one over the other. > > I have no objection with you not wanting to call the chord Cm(maj9), but it is really a more common nomenclature than you might think. > > Just a quick look in Google reveals something like this - look at the description of 9ths. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_notation > > And regardless, it is a chord naming that Sibelius accepts so it should at least allow you to get the chord diagram you want until/if they add your preferred namings to Sibelius. > > Which is the only reason I brought it up. > > -- > Bob > > Sib 1.4 - 6.2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo; Audiophile 2496; 4 G RAM. Year 2010. > I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software. > Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins) > Alphabetical plugin list: www.bobzawalich.com/AllPluginsOnDownloadPage.htm -- http://web.me.com/wvdalt/Life/index.html Attachment fval.png (13K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 04 Jul 09:10AM Hide picture C-(maj7) and A-(maj7) in Willy Dalton's PNG are absolutely correct spellings and perfectly supported by Sibelius, as is any other chord in the Real Book, and also Cm(maj9). But I don't see in which way this provides an argument for the Cm9maj7 spelling. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Willy Dalton - 05 Jul 03:16AM (edited 05 Jul 03:22AM) Hide picture Can you post an example?--not self created, of course. > Sorry, but I see it all the time. It is similar to Cm(maj7). http://web.me.com/wvdalt/Life/index.html Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Laurence Payne - 04 Jul 10:31AM Hide picture On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 03:56:03, "Willy Dalton" <wdalt@secondstepmusic.com> wrote: >I guess by Cm (maj9) you mean the 7th is major but that is not a standard guitar >voicing. I play the instrument for a living and work with many well known artists >who bring charts to be sight read and I can guarantee "Cm (maj9") is not a standard >notation voicing. Cm9 means a C minor 7th chord with the 9th added. I guess you >want me to think that Cm (maj9) means a C minor 9ths chord with the 7th raised >a half step--believe me that is an unusual way to describe that chord. In fact >I have never seen it until your post. It's standard notation where I am, alongside its cousin Cmaj9 (where the brackets are unnecessary). Though I prefer Cm^9 and Cm^ Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 04 Jul 12:23PM Hide picture FWIW: my Pat Metheny Song Book (Hal-Leonard) shows a Bm9(maj7) on page 179. Fascinating to go through such a bundle, it always improves insight into chord spelling. Indeed: if Cm (maj7) is correct, Cm (maj9) is suspect because the 9 is a default major ninth and therefore shouldn't be part of a suffix in between brackets. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Laurence Payne - 04 Jul 12:34PM Hide picture On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 12:23:35, "Wim Hoogewerf" <wim.hoogewerf@free.fr> wrote: >FWIW: my Pat Metheny Song Book (Hal-Leonard) shows a Bm9(maj7) on page 179. Fascinating >to go through such a bundle, it always improves insight into chord spelling. Indeed: >if Cm (maj7) is correct, Cm (maj9) is suspect because the 9 is a default major >ninth and therefore shouldn't be part of a suffix in between brackets. Think what the difference is between Cm9 and Cm(maj9). The "maj" doesn't refer to the 9th but to the 7th. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 04 Jul 01:34PM (edited 04 Jul 01:37PM) Hide picture Yes, and that's why I said the 9 shouldn't be part of a suffix between brackets. Edit: I wouldn't have added any reply to this thread if it wasn't for the search of some consistency in the way Sibelius treats chords. I think Cm9(maj7) is more consistent than Cm(maj9) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Laurence Payne - 04 Jul 01:40PM Hide picture On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 13:34:15, "Wim Hoogewerf" <wim.hoogewerf@free.fr> wrote: >Yes, and that's why I said the 9 shouldn't be part of a suffix between brackets. So you'd prefer Cmmaj9? That fails the overriding criterion for all notation - clarity must override dogma :-) Like I said, Cm^9 is clear and compact. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 04 Jul 02:59PM Hide picture > So you'd prefer Cmmaj9? No, I prefer Cm9(maj7) or Cm9maj7 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Laurence Payne - 04 Jul 09:07PM Hide picture On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 14:59:52, "Wim Hoogewerf" <wim.hoogewerf@free.fr> wrote: >> So you'd prefer Cmmaj9? > >No, I prefer Cm9(maj7) or Cm9maj7 Interesting. There's an argument that that is just plain wrong, because adding "maj 7" makes the "Cm9" part untrue. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Willy Dalton - 05 Jul 12:54AM Hide picture Maybe theoretically but believe me when you are writing a chart for musicians who are being paid to read accurately and quickly you need to spell it out. Cm9(maj7) or Cm9+7 spells it out--a C minor 9th chord with the 7th raised a half step. "Cmmaj9" is confusing. > Interesting. There's an argument that that is just plain wrong, > because adding "maj 7" makes the "Cm9" part untrue. -- http://web.me.com/wvdalt/Life/index.html Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Marc E. Schonbrun - 05 Jul 02:24AM Hide picture My vote is for Cm9(maj7), because when you say Cmin(maj7) you're calling out the seventh for being peculiar, but everything else is normal. And, for the record, using The Real Book as a yardstick for notation examples makes me feel funny... :-) -- Marc E. Schonbrun, Author of Mastering Sibelius Mac Pro 8-core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, 10.6.4 MacBook Pro 2GHz, 2GB RAM, 10.6.4 www.marcschonbrun.com Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Willy Dalton - 05 Jul 02:30AM (edited 05 Jul 02:32AM) Hide picture Everyone is entitled to their opinion and certainly the Real Book has many questionable chord symbols but at least Sibelius should allow us to define and draw our own version of a chord symbol. When I create a chord symbol in Sibelius and it is rejected (red) I should still be able to open the diagram form and diagram it the way I want. > My vote is for Cm9(maj7), because when you say Cmin(maj7) you're calling out the seventh for being peculiar, but everything else is normal. And, for the record, using The Real Book as a yardstick for notation examples makes me feel funny... :-) > > -- > Marc E. Schonbrun, Author of Mastering Sibelius > Mac Pro 8-core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, 10.6.4 > MacBook Pro 2GHz, 2GB RAM, 10.6.4 > www.marcschonbrun.com -- http://web.me.com/wvdalt/Life/index.html Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Willy Dalton - 05 Jul 02:44AM (edited 05 Jul 03:07AM) Hide picture plus I have to add--scrolling through all the totally unusable "clarinet player" voicings is a major waste of time--why can't I see a library of the chord voicings and eliminate the theoretically correct but practically useless voicings from ever appearing again? Don't slow me down--this is why I moved from Finale to Sibelius--Finale was slowing me down--and now Sibelius 6 is slowing me down when compared to v.5. Honestly I don't know why I upgraded--complete waste of $200 IMHO. -- http://web.me.com/wvdalt/Life/index.html Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Marc E. Schonbrun - 05 Jul 05:52AM Hide picture I never disagreed with you. My slight was on the Real Book, not you (hence the smily face)... -- Marc E. Schonbrun, Author of Mastering Sibelius Mac Pro 8-core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, 10.6.2 MacBook Pro 2GHz, 2GB RAM, 10.6.2 www.marcschonbrun.com Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Tom, formerly at Sibelius - 05 Jul 12:03PM Hide picture When we designed Sibelius 6's chord symbols system we were trying to enable behaviours for correctly displaying and transposing automatically. In order to do this, we endeavoured to support as many conventional nomenclatures as possible, based on publishing conventions and clarity. However, there are of course as many systems for writing chord symbols as there are musicians reading them, and we were not able to design automatic support for every single appearance. I'm afraid we won't be supporting a "+7" suffix any time soon, since the plus/minus signs are reserved for sharp/flat alterations to a chord (including "aug"), not for major/minor qualities. We currently support 36 other different possible combinations of major 7 suffix appearances, which correspond to more widely-used published conventions. The reason Cm9(maj7) is not permitted in Sibelius 6 is because the "m9" part refers not simply to a ninth added to a minor triad, but implies a minor seventh too. In a Cm(maj9) the "9" is effectively an addition and unaffected by the preceding chord qualities. Sibelius's library doesn't contain a chord which would imply both a minor seventh and a major seventh in the same symbol. There is only one possible exception to this rule: the difference between Cdim(maj7) with only the major seventh, and Cdim7(maj7) where both a major seventh and a diminished seventh are explicitly called out. That said, there probably should be some means of allowing chord text that doesn't fit into Sibelius's supported nomenclatures for automatic chord symbols, but can still be attached to the guitar diagrams. We'll consider whether this should be added to a future version of Sibelius. Tom -- Contact Sibelius technical help by email: http://www.avid.com/us/support/sf-login-digi Contact Sibelius technical help by phone (charges may apply): USA & Canada: +1 650-731-6106 UK: +44 (0)20 7561 7997 Australia: 1300 652 172 Other countries: www.sibelius.com/support Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Marc E. Schonbrun - 05 Jul 06:41PM Hide picture Just add Legacy Chord Diagrams to replace the Legacy Chord Symbols as the Legacy Chord Diagrams would include a naming convention. -- Marc E. Schonbrun, Author of Mastering Sibelius Mac Pro 8-core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, 10.6.2 MacBook Pro 2GHz, 2GB RAM, 10.6.2 www.marcschonbrun.com Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Albert - 06 Jul 11:33AM Hide picture I think Sibelius should allow us to use any name we want to. There are so many musical situations where a uncommon chord frame is needed, with a uncommon name. That's because of the creativity in the musical community. Dictionaries, libraries (chord and frame) are only reflecting the past, the already known. I think many Sibelius users are creative people and they don't need to be taken by the hand like little children. Since Sib 5 many things improved because of the creativity of Sibelius programmers. But the whole story with guitar frames and names is really a step back. It slows down my work; it makes "Corrections" I don't want and need and frustrates the my " I like to invent, create, develope, test and today I want to be crazy" part of my personality. Hi Sibelius: be hip, don't become square much love Albert Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Laurence Payne - 06 Jul 01:48PM Hide picture On Tue, 06 Jul 2010 11:33:31, "Albert" <alhel@versanet.de> wrote: >I think Sibelius should allow us to use any name we want to. It does. Just use Legacy Symbols. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Albert - 07 Jul 10:16AM Hide picture That's true, but not with guitar frames Albert Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Bob Zawalich - 07 Jul 04:52PM Hide picture At some level guitar frames need to have a way to parse out the pitches of a chord. I can use legacy chord symbols to produce the chord CSpecialHyperdynamicChangesWheneverIWantItTo7#5, and it will sit there and even transpose. But to generate a chord diagram, Sibelius needs to know the pitches involved, and so needs to understand the syntax of the chord symbol. Way back up in this thread, I describe a way to use legacy chord symbols for the text name of a chord, and then to find a description of the chord that Sibelius can recognize to use for a chord diagram. Sibelius does recognize a huge number of chord descriptions, and I suspect it is rare that there would be a chord whose pitches (there can only be 6, after all, for a normal guitar) cannot be represented in one of those names. -- Bob Sib 1.4 - 6.2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo; Audiophile 2496; 4 G RAM. Year 2010. I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software. Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins) Alphabetical plugin list: www.bobzawalich.com/AllPluginsOnDownloadPage.htm Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Willy Dalton - 07 Jul 08:56PM Hide picture Cm9+7 or Cm9(maj7) is hardly "CSpecialHyperdynamicChangesWheneverIWantItTo7#5". In fact I have seen the chord written this way many times. Until this thread I have never seen the chord written as Cm(maj9). > At some level guitar frames need to have a way to parse out the pitches of a chord. I can use legacy chord symbols to produce the chord CSpecialHyperdynamicChangesWheneverIWantItTo7#5, and it will sit there and even transpose. > -- http://web.me.com/wvdalt/Life/index.html Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Bob Zawalich - 07 Jul 09:16PM Hide picture Fine, Willy, you win. These are great and widely used chord names and Sibelius is stupid for not including them. My point, however, was that for a format to be recognized to produce a chord diagram, Sibelius has to encode it so that it can figure out the pitches. They will not recognize every possible name, no matter how common or uncommon it is. So you can type whatever you want as a legacy chord symbol, and that will display and even transpose. If you need a chord diagram, you can also either find a name for the pitches you want, either by browsing the lists, entering them from a MIDI keyboard, or entering them in a score and using the Add Chord Symbol plugin, and use that name to produce a chord diagram, turning off the text. Use the legacy symbol for the text, and you will have both parts looking the way you want them to. -- Bob Sib 1.4 - 6.2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo; Audiophile 2496; 4 G RAM. Year 2010. I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software. Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins) Alphabetical plugin list: www.bobzawalich.com/AllPluginsOnDownloadPage.htm Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 6.1: chord diagrams again Posted by Laurence Payne - 07 Jul 10:09PM Hide picture On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 20:56:15, "Willy Dalton" <wdalt@secondstepmusic.com> wrote: >Cm9+7 or Cm9(maj7) is hardly "CSpecialHyperdynamicChangesWheneverIWantItTo7#5". >In fact I have seen the chord written this way many times. Until this thread I >have never seen the chord written as Cm(maj9). Well, you're going to see it a lot from now on, if you intend to continue using Sibelius :-) Back to top | All threads