'Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eighths in a 9/8 bar?'

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Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eighths i... - Jeff Winslow, 19 May 02:13PM
     Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Benjamin, 19 May 04:45PM
         Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Ian Cugley, 19 May 05:50PM
             Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Martin P. Kellogg, 19 May 06:51PM
                 Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Rob Tuley, 19 May 08:38PM
         Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Jeff Winslow, 20 May 01:14AM
             Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Benjamin, 20 May 08:45AM
                 Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Jeff Winslow, 20 May 09:38AM

Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eighths in a 9/8 bar?
Posted by Jeff Winslow - 19 May 02:13PM
What I really want is four quarters, but I don't expect even Sibelius to
do a 4:4.5 tuplet. I figure once I get the 8 eighths I'll be able to get there.
But selecting the first eighth and trying to create an 8:9 tuplet gets the
dreaded "too long to fit in this tuplet" message, even though I've selected
everything in the Tuplet Preference plugin and tried different ratio ranges.
If only Make Into Tuplet could expand as well as compress!

You may wonder why. Another voice has three duplets filling the bar, which
this voice is in a 2:3 (actually 4:6) ratio with. Trust me.

thanks,
Jeff Winslow
6.1 on a (Intel) Mac Mini, 2GB RAM, OS 10.4.11
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Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eighths in a 9/8 bar?
Posted by Benjamin - 19 May 04:45PM
> What I really want is four quarters, but I don't expect even Sibelius to
> do a 4:4.5 tuplet. I figure once I get the 8 eighths I'll be able to get there.
> But selecting the first eighth and trying to create an 8:9 tuplet gets the
> dreaded "too long to fit in this tuplet" message, even though I've selected
> everything in the Tuplet Preference plugin and tried different ratio ranges.
> If only Make Into Tuplet could expand as well as compress!
>


I can't reproduce this result. I create a 9/8 bar, enter a 1/8 note, go to the tuplets dialog, enter 8:9, done.

If you want a 4:4,5 tuplet, make four quarters out of the 1/8 notes, select "none" in the Properties panel (Note/Tuplets) so the ratio and bracket disappears, and fake the tuplet ratio with a text style based on "tuplets" and two bracket lines.

This has been asked here before a few weeks ago, if I remember correctly, it's worth to search the forum for more tips and workarounds.


> You may wonder why.

Nothing to wonder about, if you ask me.


--
Sibelius 6.1.0
Windows 7 Pro - Intel Core Duo (1.4 Ghz) - 4GB Memory
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Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eighths in a 9/8 bar?
Posted by Ian Cugley - 19 May 05:50PM
Two weeks and one day:

http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=494238&groupid=3&words=tuplet&name=
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Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eighths in a 9/8 bar?
Posted by Martin P. Kellogg - 19 May 06:51PM
If I select the first 8th and type ctrl-8 to make an "octopus" (see file>preferences>menus and shortcuts>tuplets) it doesn't work. You need to create>tuplet and specify 8:9. This doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, but tuplets have always been peculiar.

--
Martin

Sibelius 6.2; Intel Core 2 Duo 2.26 GHz, 4 GB RAM (3 GB accessible), WinXP Pro SP3, two monitors, Echo Indigo IOx Express Card audio interface, KeyRig 49 -- year 2010
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Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eighths in a 9/8 bar?
Posted by Rob Tuley - 19 May 08:38PM
> This doesn't seem to make a lot of sense

A "Ctrl-8 sized octopus Sibeliensis" has 8 legs in the space of 12. That is consistent with its smaller 2:3 and 4:6 relatives.

It's hard to argue against 2:3, but 4:6 is a regular "gotcha" for people who wanted 4:3

Possibly the thing that *really* doesn't make sense here, is the general principle that "everything must have a default value", even when there isn't an obvious choice.

(Or if you want to make the software MUCH too clever for its own good, the default could arguably be a function of the time signature - e.g. 5:6 and 7:6 could be more useful in compound time than 5:4 and 7:8)

--
Rob

Sib 4.1, Win98SE, Athlon 3100, 512Mb, Audigy
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Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eighths in a 9/8 bar?
Posted by Jeff Winslow - 20 May 01:14AM
The thread from two+ weeks ago does NOT have the answer. (And yes I always search before starting a new thread, phhhhht. To be fair, I did somehow miss that one. And it's an understandable reaction - the subject line question turns out to be too simple.) Read on...

> > What I really want is four quarters, but I don't expect even Sibelius to
> > do a 4:4.5 tuplet. I figure once I get the 8 eighths I'll be able to get there.
> > But selecting the first eighth and trying to create an 8:9 tuplet gets the
> > dreaded "too long to fit in this tuplet" message...
>
> I can't reproduce this result. I create a 9/8 bar, enter a 1/8 note, go to the tuplets dialog, enter 8:9, done.

This seemed unhelpful at first, but at least, I could reproduce that result exactly as given. What was different about my context? After all, I've made plenty of strange tuplets in Sibelius before with no problem. I should have suspected something funny was going on and attached my example.

I was trying to create the tuplet, not in an empty bar, but in voice 2 when I already had a dotted half tied to a dotted quarter in voice 1. Doesn't work (error message as described above). The workaround is to enter the tuplet voice(s) first, then the non-tuplet voice(s). This does seem like a bug.


> If you want a 4:4,5 tuplet, make four quarters out of the 1/8 notes, select "none" in the Properties panel (Note/Tuplets) so the ratio and bracket disappears, and fake the tuplet ratio with a text style based on "tuplets" and two bracket lines.

Yep, that's what I figured.

Jeff Winslow
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Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eighths in a 9/8 bar?
Posted by Benjamin - 20 May 08:45AM
> The thread from two+ weeks ago does NOT have the answer. (And yes I always search before starting a new thread, phhhhht. To be fair, I did somehow miss that one. And it's an understandable reaction - the subject line question turns out to be too simple.) Read on...
>

Jeff,

I did not intend to be patronizing by pointing to this earlier thread. I just remembered that there was some interesting advice on how to fake the 4:4,5 tuplet in that one and didn't have the time to search for it myself.


>
> I was trying to create the tuplet, not in an empty bar, but in voice 2 when I already had a dotted half tied to a dotted quarter in voice 1. Doesn't work (error message as described above). The workaround is to enter the tuplet voice(s) first, then the non-tuplet voice(s). This does seem like a bug.
>

I think that there is a known misbehaviour with tuplets and voices.

>
> > If you want a 4:4,5 tuplet, make four quarters out of the 1/8 notes, select "none" in the Properties panel (Note/Tuplets) so the ratio and bracket disappears, and fake the tuplet ratio with a text style based on "tuplets" and two bracket lines.
>
> Yep, that's what I figured.
>

Take a look at Jeremy's post in that other thread for a solution that I find more elegant than what I suggested in the first place (no fake bracket lines).

> Jeff Winslow


--
Sibelius 6.1.0
Windows 7 Pro - Intel Core Duo (1.4 Ghz) - 4GB Memory
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Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eighths in a 9/8 bar?
Posted by Jeff Winslow - 20 May 09:38AM
You're right, that is interesting advice. The misbehavior showed up again, so I had to pare the bar down to one voice to make the fake (selecting the first eighth and creating a 4:4 tuplet). It's too bad I can't select the first quarter and do the same (gets "too long for this tuplet" error, not sure why), since that would be a little simpler, and it would permit what's really there when it's all done - a dotted half in place of the first three quarters. But that can change to a half tied to a quarter, which may actually be a little clearer for the performer since it lines up with the second half of the second duplet in the other hand.

Or I may stay with my current solution, which I slightly misrepresented above - actually I'm keeping the auto bracket and just faking the number.

In any case, thanks for staying with me and getting me to look at the other thread again.

Jeff
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Messages in this thread

Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eighths i... - Jeff Winslow, 19 May 02:13PM
     Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Benjamin, 19 May 04:45PM
         Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Ian Cugley, 19 May 05:50PM
             Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Martin P. Kellogg, 19 May 06:51PM
                 Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Rob Tuley, 19 May 08:38PM
         Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Jeff Winslow, 20 May 01:14AM
             Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Benjamin, 20 May 08:45AM
                 Re: Sib. 6.1: How do I make a tuplet of 8 eight... - Jeff Winslow, 20 May 09:38AM