'Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures'

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Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - John Elliott, 10 May 10:05PM
     Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - Bob Zawalich, 10 May 10:37PM
         Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - John Elliott, 10 May 11:09PM
             Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - Bob Zawalich, 11 May 12:00AM
                 Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - John Elliott, 11 May 07:24AM
                     Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - John Elliott, 11 May 07:35AM
                         Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - Daniel Spreadbury, 11 May 09:12AM

Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures
Posted by John Elliott - 10 May 10:05PM
Due to copying and pasting, I have ended up with an ossia staff that has continued well past its utility.

I would like to remove the extra measures back to the point where the ossia stops. However, all I can find in the manuals/references are ways to ADD an ossia staff.

Am I left to copy/paste the music I want to keep, remove the entire ossia, re-add it to *just* the length I want, and then re-paste the music back into it?

--John
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Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 10 May 10:37PM (edited 10 May 10:41PM)
As ossia staff is just an extra, small, staff attached to an instrument. The way it comes and goes is actually by Sib putting in instrument changes to No Instrument (Hidden) where it needs to be hidden.

Daniel discusses this in his current Sibelius blog entry: http://www.sibeliusblog.com/tips/consolidate-ossia-staves-plug-in.

So if you want to hide an ossia past a certain point, use Create > Other > Instrument Change > All instruments > Others and pick No Instrument (Hidden).

If you only want to remove sections, it is trickier, but the same basic idea. Find the place you want it to be visible first, and put in an instrument change to the instrument that the ossia is attached to. Then put the No Instrument change at the point where you want the bar to disappear.

--
Bob

Sib 1.4 - 6.2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo; Audiophile 2496; 4 G RAM. Year 2010.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins)
Alphabetical plugin list: www.bobzawalich.com/AllPluginsOnDownloadPage.htm
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Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures
Posted by John Elliott - 10 May 11:09PM
Thank you, Bob.

DEAR SIBELIUS:
Do you realize that "DELETE" or "OMIT" or "HIDE" -- say, when the measures are selected -- would be SO much easier (as regards the ossia staves) than "Create > Other > Instrument Change > All instruments > Others and pick No Instrument (Hidden).". The Sibelius "solution" to deleting extra ossia measures does not fit with the expectations of the end-user.

Sorry for any ALL CAPS above and below. It's not really "yelling" so much as me *trying* to emphasize my *point*: which is that the "solution" is REALLY BURIED and *hardly* intuitive.

The main problem stems from the fact that to *remove* an already created item (like an ossia staff) BEGINS in the CREATE menu.

What? I thought I was trying to "destroy" something *already* CREATED.

In mother words, I am not trying to CREATE anything, I am trying to DESTROY (i.e.: remove / hide / delete / remove) something *already* created.

So, I EXPECT to start in a "DELETE / OMIT / REMOVE / HIDE" most at the very least.

Can you please see to fixing this? Or am I just really off-base considering this "solution" from a "logical" angle?

Sorry (again), and this time for the sarcasm, but this is hardly the first time I have run across such a convoluted solution in the recent months.

I have been involved with product development at many point in my past and I guess the frustrations have just built up too much to allow for totally polite constructive criticism. I have come to believe that at this stage in the development of software certain common / n0ormal expectations are a given.

Really, sincerely,

--John Elliott
Albany, Oregon
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Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 11 May 12:00AM (edited 11 May 02:48AM)
An ossia is just a staff, John.

There is no way to delete bars from only one staff. You can really only make them invisible. The way you do that is to apply instrument changes to the bars you want hidden.

If you would like a more automated Hide process, you might try the downloadable Hidden Instrument Change plugin. It will effectively hide the selected bars.

I say effectively, because there really is no hidden property for bars, though I suppose there could be. So the plugin will put in Instrument Changes at the appropriate locations around a selection.

I find that in general, the existing scheme works well enough.

Most people just add an ossia where ever they need them, and it is automatically "hidden" before and after, and it functions as desired. The only problems come up when you try to shrink or extend one, and for that you can create a new one, copy the data, and delete the old one (as you describe above), without concerning yourself with the implementation of an ossia.

So it is a little clunky, but not as bad as some other things, and I would guess that most users will never have to do this. And if you really care to control it at a finer level, then understanding that it is a staff and can be manipulated by the tools used on staves should give you enough information to do what you need to do.

It is not perfect. But I think it is good enough for nearly all uses. I would personally not put it high on the list of things I wanted to see changed.

--
Bob

Sib 1.4 - 6.2, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo; Audiophile 2496; 4 G RAM. Year 2010.
I am an experienced Sibelius user, but am not affiliated with Sibelius Software.
Sib Plugin downloads: www.sibelius.com/download/plugins (see How to Install Plugins)
Alphabetical plugin list: www.bobzawalich.com/AllPluginsOnDownloadPage.htm
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Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures
Posted by John Elliott - 11 May 07:24AM
Thank you for the detailed information (received off this thread). It's quite informative.

And yes, I know I'm coming off a argumentative and wanting a solution that is very much in the minority. But let's also look at another issue that I have (and am I really the only one?).

Once I have created an ossia staff (above any staff anywhere in my piece), and I want to work on a section OUTSIDE of the piece in question -- ONCE I COME TO copying and pasting the new section into the old/original piece, I MUST first create an ossia staff in the *new* piece (above/below whichever staff I created it on in the original -- even though I am no longer using that ossia in this later section of the piece) BEFORE I can paste in the new material (or else the new material will b pasted into the ossia even if I am no longer using it and it's not even visible in the section of the score I am pasting this into.

My point is this: even though an ossia is treated as a regular staff, it's really not (and therefore should not be treated as such). An ossia can come and go, and be above/below ANY staff in the work. It is there to provide alternatives, options, and other "additional" material, not to be treated as a main staff.

Since it is not a normal/usual staff, why should it be treated as such? This only complicates the matter (from *my* end-user point-of-view).

--John
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Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures
Posted by John Elliott - 11 May 07:35AM
Bob,

re: "There is no way to delete bars from only one staff. You can really only make them invisible. The way you do that is to apply instrument changes to the bars you want hidden" --

This brings me back to my point about an ossia being NOT "just a staff." Since it can come-and-go (in terms of the original staves created in a given piece), the only way that treating it "like any other staff" makes sense if to assume that there actually hidden ossias above/below ALL staves even if they are never used/exposed.

However, this is not the case (in practice -- i.e.: to the end user) because ... UNTIL one ADDS an ossia, everything about the behavior of Sibelius is "normal." ONCE the ossia is added (regardless of how many measures of the ossia are actually needed/used), the score behaves differently, acting as if the ossia is NOW a normal staff and is to be treated as such, even if we are pasting music into several staves MANY MEASURES PAST the end of the one ossia staff/measures we created.

Am I making sense? I wonder, because the issue I am trying to rectify is nonsensical.

Please inform further (whether on or off the thread) -- thank you.

--John
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Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures
Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 11 May 09:12AM
I would agree with you, John, that ossia staves contain traps for the unwary, and it would indeed be nice if Sibelius could know how to ignore them when they are not shown (e.g. for the purposes of copying and pasting). However, at the moment Sibelius no more knows that a staff represents an ossia as it represents anything else, so there would have to be some fairly substantial changes at a fundamental level to subvert that. I am sure there is room for improvement with ossia staves, as with much else in Sibelius.

--
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Messages in this thread

Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - John Elliott, 10 May 10:05PM
     Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - Bob Zawalich, 10 May 10:37PM
         Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - John Elliott, 10 May 11:09PM
             Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - Bob Zawalich, 11 May 12:00AM
                 Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - John Elliott, 11 May 07:24AM
                     Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - John Elliott, 11 May 07:35AM
                         Re: Sib. 6.2: *Removing* extra ossia measures - Daniel Spreadbury, 11 May 09:12AM