'Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal in piano score'

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Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal ... - Kevin Gibbs, 26 Mar 10:55PM
     Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Jim Druckenmiller, 27 Mar 01:52AM
         Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Kevin Gibbs, 27 Mar 02:42AM
             Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Mark Isaacs, 27 Mar 03:23AM
                 Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Kevin Gibbs, 27 Mar 03:28AM
                     Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Mark Isaacs, 27 Mar 03:49AM
                         Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Kevin Gibbs, 27 Mar 02:40PM
                             Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Mark Isaacs, 27 Mar 08:52PM
                                 Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Andy G, 27 Mar 10:17PM
                                     Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Mark Isaacs, 27 Mar 11:09PM

Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal in piano score
Posted by Kevin Gibbs - 26 Mar 10:55PM
I need help indicating sostenuto in a piano score. How do I indicate which notes are governed by the sostenuto, and which are to be played detached or stacato while the others are held?
Thanks,
Kevin

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Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal in piano score
Posted by Jim Druckenmiller - 27 Mar 01:52AM
Hi Kevin,

[I only have Sib 6 but I'm sure this hasn't changed between 5 and 6, I hope]


You can create a pedaling marking by using >Create >Lines and then selecting one of the Ped options.

How far you drag the line will determine which notes are governed by the pedaling effect.


Here's a current Forum post where Mark is putting them to use if you want to see an example.

http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=489422&groupid=3&


Take Care,

Jim

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Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal in piano score
Posted by Kevin Gibbs - 27 Mar 02:42AM
Jim,
Thanks for writing back. Perhaps I wasn't quite clear. As I'm sure you realize, when you write a sostenuto, certain other notes will be stacato and that stacato will overlap the sustained notes governed by the sostenuto. As far as I know, all the pedal markings refer to sustain. Therefore, I don't think that simply defining the horizontal size of a pedal mark solves my problem exactly. Or, at the very least, I don't which pedal mark, or combination of pedal marks and technique or other instructions, is used for a sostenuto.
Now I'll be the first to admit that, as a blind man, my grasp of the print notational world is not what I would wish. But I think I'm on the right track here.
BTW, I did read the thread you recommended, although, for obvious reasons, I didn't bother reading the attached scores that appeared at intervals throughout.
Thanks for any further clarification anyone can provide.

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Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal in piano score
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 27 Mar 03:23AM (edited 27 Mar 03:24AM)
Thanks for referring Kevin to my score Jim.

The "sostenuto pedal" is not the same as the normal "sustain pedal" which I use in my score. It is the middle pedal on larger grand pianos (not found on uprights and "domestic" grands) and has the special function that Kevin refers to allowing only notes caught by the sostenuto to be sustained while other notes can be played normally, even staccato. This is useful where the textures are in different registers such that it is not physically possible to achieve the effect with the fingers sustaining some notes and playing others staccato as you can when they are in close range. In this way it has a much more discrete function than the catch all sustain pedal that applies universally to the entire keyboard. It has a special playing technique too: the notes to be sustained need to be played unpedalled *first*, in order to raise their dampers and then the sostenuto pedal depressed afterwards will keep only those dampers up. It is important that the sustain pedal is not depressed also when depressing the sostenuto pedal as the sustain pedal raises all the dampers so the sostenuto would then catch the lot and function no different to the sustain pedal. But once the sostenuto pedal has been depressed and kept down, then the sustain pedal can also be used at well, bringing in universal sustain or reverting back to just the sostenuto notes when raised.

It is a very under-utilised device. I have never seen it indicated in canonic piano music, it is something that pianists use of their own volition when they think it would be appropriate. However, some modern classical music calls for it directly seeking its effect specifically.

On the couple of occasions I have marked it in a score I have used my own notation. A bracket under the notes to apply it to and the words "sostenuto pedal" should be enough, along with appropriate note lengths and articulation to reinforce the effect required.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
Sibelius 6.1.0 build 14, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra, Garritan Authorised Steinway.

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Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal in piano score
Posted by Kevin Gibbs - 27 Mar 03:28AM (edited 27 Mar 03:36AM)
Mark, Once again, thanks for your response. You've got it exactly. In addition to your comment, I'm attaching a private e-mail I received from a man who occasionally contributes to this forum. Between the two responses the situation is completely clear now. Here's his contribution.

Do you mean you want to use the middle pedal to hold the sound of the chord while the other notes play? You can write S.P ________________________ or Sost. Ped. ______________ or Ped. I, Ped.II, Ped. III___________________________ or any of the previsous with an asterisk for releasing the pedal along with staccato dots for the moving notes if that is what you mean. If you play the chord and use the middle pedal, only the notes you played and held before you use the pedal will sustain. You can also use different stem directions and note durations for the held notes.

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Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal in piano score
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 27 Mar 03:49AM
Here's an example attached of what I mean (done in Sib 5 so you can open it).

You could abbreviate the text to S.P. or sost. pedal if you like.

I'd be inclined to use the vertical bracket as it clearly shows all the notes to be held by the S.P. across two hands.


--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
Sibelius 6.1.0 build 14, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra, Garritan Authorised Steinway.
Attachment possible sostenuto pedalling notation.sib (28K)

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Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal in piano score
Posted by Kevin Gibbs - 27 Mar 02:40PM
Mark,
Once again, thanks for your reply. Could you please tell me where you found that bracket? Is it in the lines dialog, or somewhere else? I'll get in touch with the guy who developed the blindness accessibility solution to find out how we go about accessing it after you've told me where you found it.
FYI, we blind guys use Sib 5.25 by means of a third party plug-in that reads the screen. This plug-in was able to read the bracket when I landed on it.
My other question is, if the dynamics for the held notes are different than for the unheld notes, say that the long chord is a FFF and the moving lines are not as loud in your example, where does one put dynamics for each?
Thanks,
Kevin

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Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal in piano score
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 27 Mar 08:52PM (edited 27 Mar 08:59PM)
Kevin, glad it was helpful.

The vertical bracket came from the Lines dialog. There are two available, and they are the 24th and 25th items from the top of the Staff Lines column. The two face different ways i.e. whether the open end is on the left or the right. You can click on the top or bottom and extend them to suit.

Curiously there seems to be a small error in that the bracket in the menu indicating facing right faces left in the score, and vice versa.

This is all from my version of Sibelius 5.2.5

In piano music feel free to use more than one dynamic placed close to the staves (or notes) they are concerned with, to indicate different layered dynamics. If the dynamics are on different staves for playback you should untick "Dynamics between keyboard staves affect adjacent staff" in Play>Performance so the dynamics only have their affect more locally. I have edited my example to put in dynamics as you suggest.

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
Sibelius 6.1.0 build 14, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra, Garritan Authorised Steinway.
Attachment possible sostenuto pedalling notation with dynamics.sib (28K)

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Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal in piano score
Posted by Andy G - 27 Mar 10:17PM (edited 27 Mar 10:18PM)
I'm certain I've seen this done before, but can't find it right now. How about this? I just created new couple of pedal lines. Easy to follow, or too complex?


--
Q6700 @ 3GHz 4GB RAM. Win XP Pro SP2. Terratec/M-Audio cards. Laptop: 1.8Ghz P-M,1GB RAM. XP Home SP2. Echo Indigo I/O soundcard. Both: Sib 6.01, Cubase and many VSTi's!
Attachment sostenuto.jpg (54K)

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Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal in piano score
Posted by Mark Isaacs - 27 Mar 11:09PM (edited 27 Mar 11:12PM)
Andy I like your example in terms of the notation tools themselves and the custom made pedal line is great.

Just to make the point that your example doesn't make practical musical sense as the sostenuto pedal is not needed in your specific case since the LH finger can sustain the G anyway. All the sostenuto pedal does is hold custom-chosen dampers up. A finger depressing a key does precisely the same thing.

The sostenuto pedal is only needed when one's fingers are required to leave the notes to be sustained (just in the same general way that the sustain pedal is used, the sostenuto pedal being simply a spot-applied sustain pedal allowing for layered textures)

--
A composer www.markisaacs.com
Sibelius 6.1.0 build 14, Sibelius 5.2.5 build 37, Vista SP1, Intel quad CPU Q9450 2.66Ghz, 3GB RAM, 27'' monitor, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard, Bose Computer Music Monitor speakers, Sibelius Sounds Essentials, Sibelius Sounds, Garritan Personal Orchestra, Garritan Authorised Steinway.

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Messages in this thread

Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pedal ... - Kevin Gibbs, 26 Mar 10:55PM
     Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Jim Druckenmiller, 27 Mar 01:52AM
         Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Kevin Gibbs, 27 Mar 02:42AM
             Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Mark Isaacs, 27 Mar 03:23AM
                 Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Kevin Gibbs, 27 Mar 03:28AM
                     Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Mark Isaacs, 27 Mar 03:49AM
                         Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Kevin Gibbs, 27 Mar 02:40PM
                             Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Mark Isaacs, 27 Mar 08:52PM
                                 Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Andy G, 27 Mar 10:17PM
                                     Re: Sib. 5.x: Need help indicating sostenuto pe... - Mark Isaacs, 27 Mar 11:09PM