Messages in this thread

Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin - John Moody, 04 Jul 06:43PM
     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Terry Carter, Rural Michigan USA, 04 Jul 07:40PM
         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 04 Jul 10:57PM
             Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Richard Vitale, 05 Jul 06:44AM
     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Richard Vitale, 04 Jul 07:53PM
         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 02:06PM
             Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Richard Vitale, 05 Jul 05:27PM
                 Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 06:48PM
                     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Richard Vitale, 05 Jul 07:25PM
                         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 08:11PM
                         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 08:25PM
                             Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Richard Vitale, 05 Jul 11:05PM
                     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Philip Sparke, 05 Jul 07:26PM
                         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 07:36PM
                             Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Jeremy Hughes, 05 Jul 07:51PM
                                 Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Philip Sparke, 05 Jul 08:03PM
                                 Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 08:35PM
                                     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 08:46PM
                                         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Jeremy Hughes, 05 Jul 09:17PM
                                             Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Matthew Maslanka, 27 Jan 07:32AM
                                                 Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - matt.kaner, 22 Apr 01:48PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Bob Zawalich, 22 Apr 06:40PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - matt.kaner, 23 Apr 09:56AM
                                                             Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Roy Moore, 23 Apr 10:05AM
                                                                 Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - kbundies, 25 Apr 05:27AM
                                                                     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - jfhatescmc, 25 Feb 10:24PM

Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by John Moody - 04 Jul 06:43PM
I am a new Sibelius user and enjoy many aspects of the program.

I am finding the inflexibility of the appearance of the instrument names in the left margin to be very frustrating. I can't imagine working on an orchestral score without the ability to change the appearance of the instrument names - sometimes on a page-by-page basis.

Wonder if for most of the score one violin 1 staff is fine - but then you need two staves for an a2 situation. It's not unusual for modern music to divide the strings even more. I don't see any way of Sibelius accomplishing this.

I've been scanning the forum to see if there are any solutions to this problem, but I can't find any real good ones. Are there any other solutions?

Isn't this perceived as kind of a big problem??

There seem to be so many options in this program, and I love the magnetic layout ideas - but my scores won't look like normal scores without the ability to adjust the instrument names in the left margin.

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Terry Carter, Rural Michigan USA - 04 Jul 07:40PM

You can create three staves for flutes and "hide empty staves" on various pages. That might help you.
Attachment Mary and her lamb.sib (32K)

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by John Moody - 04 Jul 10:57PM
>
> You can create three staves for flutes and "hide empty staves" on various pages. That might help you.
>

No. In all the scores I know of "fl." would be centered in the left between all the flute staves and there would be a "1", "2", or "3" next to the staff in question. Sibelius can't do this.

This would be a "group name" function.

However, I think Sibelius could handle these scenarios OK if a text object could be attached to the left barline of the score much like an instrument name.

Most of the suggestions in the manual are just work-arounds.

For instance, wonder if the publisher prefers centered instrument names? This would mess up the "1" and "2" between the different staves.

Wonder if more space is needed between two staves on a few pages? It would mess the spacing all up.

Everything else is so simple and intuitive in Sibelius. I can't understand why the instrument names in the left margin are so limited. I think probably there have not been enough complaints about this from users.

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Richard Vitale - 05 Jul 06:44AM
Hello John,

In the screenshot is (I think) what you are describing.

If it is not, please scan a page that has exactly what you're asking for and I'm sure someone will send you back a score with the group name you'd like.

Thank you,

--
Richie Vitale-Sib 6.0 User
iMac G5/OS 10.4.11
1.8 GHz/768 MB RAM
http://www.myspace.com/richievitale
Attachment Three Flutes.png (58K)

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Richard Vitale - 04 Jul 07:53PM (edited 04 Jul 07:59PM)
First of all, welcome to Sibelius John!

You'll find Sibelius simple and intuitive once you get a handle on a few basics.

In Section "3.8 Instrument Names" in the Sib 6 manual there are many suggestions to help with orchestral setup of names including the space (gap) between stave and instrument name on left of score.

For this "space editing", go to:
House Styles>Engraving Rules>instruments (in left-had column).
-----
For the changing of instrument names:
While in Page View (as opposed to Panorama)
change the name of the Violin to "Violin 1" or whatever you'd like in the upper-left corner of the first page with staves on it.

(See "Violin Name" screenshot below.)

In the 2nd set of staves is your "short name".
I've changed this to:
Vln. 1

Automatically all following short names are changed to "Vln. 1".

------

To add staves to the Violins (or any instrument), push the letter "I" on your keyboard while Sibelius is forefront.
(See "Instruments" screenshot.)

While Violin is selected push:
"Extra Staff" above or below

You can even make it a smaller staff if you wish.

------

To change the name of the staves page by page, select the staves in which you'd like the change in name.

Go to:
Create>Other>Instrument Change

and select the Instrument that you'd like to have in the name change.

You can edit the long and short names as described above for this new instrument you've selected.

------

There are engravers and copyists that may have better ideas or augment my suggestions. They will chime in soon I'm sure.

Happy 4th!
--
Richie Vitale-Sib 6.0 User
iMac G5/OS 10.4.11
1.8 GHz/768 MB RAM
http://www.myspace.com/richievitale
Attachments Violin Name.png (378K), Instruments.png (61K)

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by John Moody - 05 Jul 02:06PM
> First of all, welcome to Sibelius John!
>
------
>
> To add staves to the Violins (or any instrument), push the letter "I" on your keyboard while Sibelius is forefront.
> (See "Instruments" screenshot.)
>
> While Violin is selected push:
> "Extra Staff" above or below
>
> You can even make it a smaller staff if you wish.
>
> ------

Thanks for the welcome!

What I am after is to have the name or the abbreviated name centered between two or three staves, and a clarifying name, like "1", "2", or "3" directly next to the appropriate staff.

I don't see how to do this in Sibelius.

John

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Richard Vitale - 05 Jul 05:27PM
Hi John,

See attached Sib File.

Is this what you'd like?

--
Richie Vitale-Sib 6.0 User
iMac G5/OS 10.4.11
1.8 GHz/768 MB RAM
http://www.myspace.com/richievitale
Attachment 3 Flutes.sib (31K)

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by John Moody - 05 Jul 06:48PM
> Hi John,
>
> See attached Sib File.
>
> Is this what you'd like?
>
> --
> Richie Vitale-Sib 6.0 User
> iMac G5/OS 10.4.11
> 1.8 GHz/768 MB RAM
> http://www.myspace.com/richievitale

Richie,

That's basically what I am talking about - but your example is a work-around. The name for flute 1 is just "1" and flute 3 is just "3." Flute 2 is "Flute 2." Wonder if you want to hide flute 3 for a system or two? You would wind up with the Clarinet marking still next to No. 2 rather than centered between 1 and 2. Also, wonder if you wanted to have the instrument names centered? Then the "1" and "3" would be centered with "Oboe" and "Bassoon." These are just some of the problems.

I can see some other work-arounds, but they all involve compromises to the usability of the program.

John

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Richard Vitale - 05 Jul 07:25PM
Hi John,

It's hard to visualize exactly what you want.

(For instance, I'm not sure if you want the centering done horizontally and/or vertically. And you can hide empty staves with no effect to the position of long and short names already placed.)

If you can make a screenshot of a score page (w/long and short names), or have someone w/a scanner do it for you and email it to you, and then you attach it to a post, I'm sure I or someone else could accommodate you.

Even a hand drawn score would suffice.

But, at least for me, I'll need a template screenshot.

Thanks John,

--
Richie Vitale-Sib 6.0 User
iMac G5/OS 10.4.11
1.8 GHz/768 MB RAM
http://www.myspace.com/richievitale

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by John Moody - 05 Jul 08:11PM
> Hi John,
>
> It's hard to visualize exactly what you want.

> Richie Vitale-Sib 6.0 User
> iMac G5/OS 10.4.11
> 1.8 GHz/768 MB RAM
> http://www.myspace.com/richievitale

Richie,

I will post some attachments.

The first is your file with the instruments centered. The "1" and "3" look wrong this way.

The second is with the third staff hidden. The "flute" name is next to No. 2 (since it is the name flute 2) and not centered between the two staves.

John
Attachment 3 Flutes staff three hidden.sib (31K)

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by John Moody - 05 Jul 08:25PM
> Hi John,
>
> It's hard to visualize exactly what you want.
>

Richie,

Here is the second example - I'm sorry I can't figure out how to attach two files to the same post.

John
Attachment 3 Flutes staff three hidden.sib (31K)

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Richard Vitale - 05 Jul 11:05PM
Thanks John,

I think Philip and Jeremy have a better grasp of this issue than I do.

The site Philip mentioned is very enlightening:
http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=393672&groupid=3&words=Score%20Presentation&name=

I do hope you get your wish in Sib 7.

:-)

--
Richie Vitale-Sib 6.0 User
iMac G5/OS 10.4.11
1.8 GHz/768 MB RAM
http://www.myspace.com/richievitale

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Philip Sparke - 05 Jul 07:26PM
John, this has been a constant gripe of mine since the feature disappeared from a very early version of Sibelius. (Yes, that's right!)

I find this lack of basic notational facility mind-numbing!

BUT Jeremy came up with a brilliant workaround which has just been resurrected in another thread on ths page - Score Presentation - which basically adds the instrument number to a clef. You can then 'add stave below' to get a permanently centered instrument group name. This is limited, as there is a limited number of clefs available to edit, but I attached a score to a post in the above thread which uses the edited clefs and you are welcome to copy these via House Style.

Good luck!

Philip

--
Philip Sparke - Anglo Music Press
Sib 6 Windows XP, 3 Ghz, 2 GB RAM, sexy black colour with lots of flashing lights
www.philipsparke.com

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by John Moody - 05 Jul 07:36PM
> John, this has been a constant gripe of mine since the feature disappeared from a very early version of Sibelius. (Yes, that's right!)
>
> I find this lack of basic notational facility mind-numbing!
>
> BUT Jeremy came up with a brilliant workaround which has just been resurrected in another thread on ths page - Score Presentation - which basically adds the instrument number to a clef. You can then 'add stave below' to get a permanently centered instrument group name. This is limited, as there is a limited number of clefs available to edit, but I attached a score to a post in the above thread which uses the edited clefs and you are welcome to copy these via House Style.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Philip
>

Philip,

Yes, I saw that workaround. Here's the problem - there aren't enough clefs. It is just a partial solution. I am hoping that by bringing this problem to the "top" of the list it can be resolved soon. . .

You're right - it is "basic," and it is "mind-numbing!"

John

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Jeremy Hughes - 05 Jul 07:51PM
Hi all

It might be worth pointing out that it is perfectly possible to do what you want, and it's done regularly by me and others. It simply but tediously requires manually inserting the labels. It takes a bit of time, but less than you might think, once you get the default positioning set correctly.

I am fully behind your request that this be made automatic in Sibelius, though. I had high hopes for Sibelius 6, but they were dashed. (Magnetic layout more than makes up for the time I'm still spending doing these labels, though, so I guess that's a net gain.)

Maybe next time. I see Sib 6 as a direct attempt to seduce Finale users (addressing those things that they saw in Sib as being less good than Finale). This is another of those things, so perhaps it is near the top of the Great List.

Keep (politely) agitating!

Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
iMac Intel 2GHz 2GB | OS X Version 10.4.11 Tiger | Sibelius 6.0.1
(It's 2009)

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Philip Sparke - 05 Jul 08:03PM
I am poiltely agitating as we speak!

I can (charitably) only imagine it must be very difficult to programme or it would have been done by now - though I can't imagine it would be more difficult to achieve than magnetic layout.... (which is, of course, a miracle)

--
Philip Sparke - Anglo Music Press
Sib 6 Windows XP, 3 Ghz, 2 GB RAM, sexy black colour with lots of flashing lights
www.philipsparke.com

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by John Moody - 05 Jul 08:35PM
> Hi all
>
> It might be worth pointing out that it is perfectly possible to do what you want, and it's done regularly by me and others. It simply but tediously requires manually inserting the labels. It takes a bit of time, but less than you might think, once you get the default positioning set correctly.
>
> I am fully behind your request that this be made automatic in Sibelius, though. I had high hopes for Sibelius 6, but they were dashed. (Magnetic layout more than makes up for the time I'm still spending doing these labels, though, so I guess that's a net gain.)
>
> Keep (politely) agitating!
>
> Jeremy
> --

Jeremy,

You invented the option of making the clefs with the numbers on the left, correct? But you are not using that option, instead you are putting the numbers in by hand - is that correct also?

What is the correct spacing and what is the best text tool in order to achieve this?

John

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by John Moody - 05 Jul 08:46PM
I have to admit that I was searching through my collection of scores as "proof" of my request for more options and I realized for the first time that the numbers to the left of the individual stave seems to be an option rather than a requirement in some of the great scores of the past. Most of the scores just have a bracket when parts are divided - without the numbering of the staves. This, of course, is fairly easy to create in Sibelius.

I AM a Finale user, and the easy adjustability of the left margin is a feature of that program. However, since I see so many scores with just a bracket on the left, I think I will try harder with Sibelius.

Jeremy has discovered many workarounds to this problem in case the composer wants to add the number of the instrument to the left of each individual staff. I may just decide to use a bracket. In any case, I would encourage the Sibelius development team to come up with an easy solution to this problem so it could become an option for interested composers.

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Jeremy Hughes - 05 Jul 09:17PM
John Moody wrote:
>You invented the option of making the clefs with the numbers on the left, correct? But you are not using that option, instead you are putting the numbers in by hand - is that correct also?

Not sure if I was the first to invent it. The thread is the most recent one, anyway.

You are more-or-less correct: I often receive scores which have had the basic note-entry done, or been already worked on, and am asked to implement a house style. It is always faster and better to avoid redoing entry of clefs etc., which can wreak havoc on careful spacing etc.

Also, some scores use the clefs that I might otherwise bastardize to do this. And in general I try to avoid this, although it is sometimes necessary. I haven't done it at all for a while.

When I last did, I found it easier to manually add the instrument name ('Flute') rather than the numbers (for which the normal instrument names were changed). I used a system text style (I tweaked Lyricist, I think) that will snap to the correct place horizontally, and needs to be dragged into the correct vertical place. I used a screen ruler to get that right, although by the end of the score doing it by eye was nearly as good, and faster.

cheers

Jeremy
--
music editor/engraver
iMac Intel 2GHz 2GB | OS X Version 10.4.11 Tiger | Sibelius 6.0.1
(It's 2009)

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Matthew Maslanka - 27 Jan 07:32AM
I just wanted to bump this thread. Yes, there are any number of kludges here, but

1
2
Hn.
3
4

Should be as easy and automatic as falling off a log. Yes, Magnetic Layout is an extraordinary thing and is currently saving my proverbial behind. BUT! Needing to futz around with this basic convention since V.1 in Windows is mystifying.

My hope is that in future versions, one may simply define a group of instruments (Horns, say) and the number of players (4) and then have the combinations of staff name and player number work themselves out without the hassle. I rather hope it's like Apple waiting for years to give iPhone users cut and paste-- because they wanted to implement it properly.

When (if) this is implemented, I quite hope that the mechanism is clear and elegant.

Thanks!!

Matt

--
Matthew Maslanka
www.maslankamusicprep.com

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by matt.kaner - 22 Apr 01:48PM
Does anyone know if this has indeed been fixed in Sibelius 8? I'll upgrade if so...

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Bob Zawalich - 22 Apr 06:40PM
There has been no change in v8 regarding this feature.

--
Bob

An experienced user of Sibelius. Sib 1.2 - 8, Windows 7 Pro SP 1 64 bit, 8 G RAM. Year 2016.

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by matt.kaner - 23 Apr 09:56AM
Sigh... so have they actually improved anything that's in any way useful for professional typesetting?

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by Roy Moore - 23 Apr 10:05AM (edited 24 Apr 06:30AM)
Yes.
Rest positioning in voices.
Correct positioning of Nth x bar.
Correct positioning of TS with repeat barline
Independent enharmonic spelling of accidentals in parts


--
Roy Moore
London UK (2016)
Sib 7.5,8.2 -Win 10 pro x64 8gb ram,512gb SSD
Laptop Win 10 pro x64-32gb ram 512 ssd 750 hd
Various East West, Hollywood Strings, Note Performer




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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by kbundies - 25 Apr 05:27AM (edited 25 Apr 05:28AM)
@ Jeremy,
instead of a screen ruler one could use the graph paper as background texture.
--
Sibelius 8.2.0.89 on Mac OSX 10.11.4

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Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin
Posted by jfhatescmc - 25 Feb 10:24PM
I cant believe its now 2020 and still a problem. Its too dumb to be true that Sibelius still lacks such basic function

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Messages in this thread

Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left margin - John Moody, 04 Jul 06:43PM
     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Terry Carter, Rural Michigan USA, 04 Jul 07:40PM
         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 04 Jul 10:57PM
             Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Richard Vitale, 05 Jul 06:44AM
     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Richard Vitale, 04 Jul 07:53PM
         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 02:06PM
             Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Richard Vitale, 05 Jul 05:27PM
                 Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 06:48PM
                     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Richard Vitale, 05 Jul 07:25PM
                         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 08:11PM
                         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 08:25PM
                             Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Richard Vitale, 05 Jul 11:05PM
                     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Philip Sparke, 05 Jul 07:26PM
                         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 07:36PM
                             Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Jeremy Hughes, 05 Jul 07:51PM
                                 Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Philip Sparke, 05 Jul 08:03PM
                                 Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 08:35PM
                                     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - John Moody, 05 Jul 08:46PM
                                         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Jeremy Hughes, 05 Jul 09:17PM
                                             Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Matthew Maslanka, 27 Jan 07:32AM
                                                 Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - matt.kaner, 22 Apr 01:48PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Bob Zawalich, 22 Apr 06:40PM
                                                         Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - matt.kaner, 23 Apr 09:56AM
                                                             Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - Roy Moore, 23 Apr 10:05AM
                                                                 Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - kbundies, 25 Apr 05:27AM
                                                                     Re: Sib. 6.0: Instrument name options on left m... - jfhatescmc, 25 Feb 10:24PM