If anybody can instruct me in this( or can point me to any instructive websites, I would appreciate it)
I have an idea for an arrangement which would consist of Piano and Voice.
I would like to include "Atonal Elements" into the Piano Part.This is all just a sketch (meaning ,mentally sketchy) at this stage.I'm not yet at any concrete-ness with this.
My Q is : HOW would I lay-out the piano part ?
First, establish a key signature and THEN when I vere off course Tonically
to mark the area with an instuction or drop the key sig.(sort of like a permanent modulation indication).OR not bother with anything like that and handle each note individually with accidentals ?
Obviously, I've never handled 12 tone or Serial and I don't know what I'm doing so please NO TROLLING.Thanks.
From what I gather, you intend to begin in style A), with a tonal center, and then gradually move into B) with no tonality.
I suggest using a key signature, initially, and even into a bit of the transition, and then drop the key signature, and continue with accidentals.
The easiest way to do this, as I see it, would be to begin in C Major or A Minor; they share the same signature as 'atonal' music.
On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:48:58, "Lb Manganaro" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I have an idea for an arrangement which would consist of Piano and Voice. >I would like to include "Atonal Elements" into the Piano Part.This is all just >a sketch (meaning ,mentally sketchy) at this stage.I'm not yet at any concrete-ness >with this. > >My Q is : HOW would I lay-out the piano part ? > >First, establish a key signature and THEN when I vere off course Tonically >to mark the area with an instuction or drop the key sig.(sort of like a permanent >modulation indication).OR not bother with anything like that and handle each note >individually with accidentals ?
Do whatever makes it easier to read and understand. A tonal section will probably be easier to read with a keysignature.
But you don't have to decide now, at the sketch stage. Worry about layout and format once you've decided what the notes are.
If you want to make "atonal" music then you have to invent your own virtual relationships. Doing dodecaphonic (12 tones or serial) music is not going to get you much more modern, as it already came to past.
I would suggest you try to establish some chord transformation process to start, perhaps some simple distortion of tonal chords using augmentation and compression. Avoid the key signature, it's just going to get in the way unless you really know what you want, like Ligeti's first piano study.
Listen to a lot of music and look at a lot of score, a few times I had piano students that wanted to compose a modern piece, but they all lacked basic knowledge about what was done before.
I would recommend you start by looking at some of the landmarks in 20th century music history first:
Mahler's 9th
Stravinsky's Rite of Spring (constant juxtaposition of 2 tonalities and Russian modes)
Schoenberg's Transfigured Night (extended tonality) & Chamber Symphony (also extended tonality - Masterpiece)
Berg's Violin concerto (using 12 tones rows to generate tonal harmonies) & Wozzeck
Ligeti's Piano studies (since your writing for piano, using very clear modern harmonic techniques)
Bartok's Microcosmos (also piano pieces, uses juxtaposition of 2 tonalities)
Strauss's Metamorphoses (tonal but out of this world)
There is so much more, but that's a head start (you should also look into spectral music theory). Also dont forget to listen to Beethoven's 5 last string quartets and the gross fuge. ;)
"From what I gather, you intend to begin in style A), with a tonal center, and then gradually move into B) with no tonality."
No, I don't think so. The whole fabric of this accompaniment (which would rise to the level of an arrangement, would sort of be an "interweaving" where the serial aspects could pop-up wherever my ear would like them to be.So, tonic into "musical equanimity" could happen anywhere(in the middle or the ends of phrases); 2 to 3 note statements or motives as example within a traditional tonality.
The easiest way to do this, as I see it, would be to begin in C Major or A Minor; they share the same signature as 'atonal' music.
Right. Thanks.
"If you want to make "atonal" music then you have to invent your own virtual relationships."
I don't know what "virtual relationships" mean ?
"music is not going to get you much more modern, as it already came to past."
I don't know what this statement means.As we all do,(I assume)is write music that appeals to us(and HOPEFULLY not ONLY us).It's an idea,a possibility that potentially I find appealing.Whether the idea has any "legs"(meaning as it evolves I still maintain enthuaiasm for
it),is just a guess at this stage. That's why I want to interpolate this element into...not because it's "Modern"(or isn't) whatever modern might mean. My criteria(to use "something" is simply if it excites my brain and tickles my ear).
"I would suggest you try to establish some chord transformation process to start, perhaps some simple distortion of tonal chords using augmentation and compression."
Sounds like a good idea.Something that's an obvious neccessity. Once I get going.I was wondering how to write this out notationally.
"Avoid the key signature,it's just going to get in the way unless you really know what you want, like Ligeti's first piano study."
The music is going to be essentially Tonal. The "democratic aspects-atonal" will come in- "in relation to"( and vice versa) with the tonal.With the idea to make an interesting fabric, a sort of hybrid that becomes something other than.
Good suggestions Felix.
Lb, if you are looking into Wozzek, Berg used little "cells" or subsets of the 12 tone row to develop themes, melodies or sound worlds for the characters, and often used the remaining notes as "harmonies".
12 tones is essentially contrapuntal [ horizontal thinking ]
find rythmic BEFORE embellishement
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sharp dissonnant m2 -m9-M7
soft dissonnant M2-M9-m7-tri-P4
consonnant m6-m3-M6-M3-P5
__________________________________________________________________
12 TONES SETTING FIRST VOICE
1 range one octave / make somes climatic goal nador & climax
> wanderitis can be avoided melodically by using more scalewise pattern
coupes with a carefull selected amount of chromatism
2 lengh not less than seven notes [ avoid using if unwanted the same note
to frequently in short melody
3 first and last notes the same
4 pitch direction to be changed after four tones at most
5 only certain tones may precede the final tone m2-2-m3-4-5
6 no immediate tone repetition especially on strong beat of nearby measure
> carefull of skipping over the bareline unless wanted
7 no chords tones [common practice
8 no sequences sequences create melodie unit and emphasise pattern
9 no more than one skip in the same direction eventually after a skipp of more than a 3rd
attempt to bring the line back by half or whole step
a skip of a 6 or 7 create group unit or subordinnate members of the completed succession
10 no scales passages even formed by a 2d
tend to destruct a free lineaire developpement could use two 3 rd in the same direction with tone in bet
scale formed by srep of 2 in the same direction tend to form large scale unit and
as such have a very inherent melodic tension
11 no augumented or diminished or tritone progrssions
12 no chromatism if after an augumented or diminished intervals
the 3rd tone is taken by skip a chord group will result
if to many chromatism used the melody may lose its sense of direction
13 carefull of nadir and climax avoid two or more equal high or low point .
14 avoid using the same rythmik pattern in consecutive or nearby measure
[ if so break with tie or change meterif its on a long range
14 avoid phrases that answear each other symmetrically
---------------------------------------
CURVE
* slow mouvement dips+ rise at start until middle [climax ] feeling of calm
with tension in the middle
* tension generaly inherent with ascending line
relaxation with descending line small interval as half steps increase the tensions
large intervel descrease tensions
* carefull not to mix too many differents patterns
* if used for hypnotic effects interupt by meter change
---------------------------------------
SECOND VOICE SETTING
16 no crossing of voice
17 the first and last intervals must hav their lower tones as roots
18 carefull with upper tone as roots
19 as a close a skip in one voice requires a half step
or a whole step progression in the other voice [ cartwheel principle ]
20 no chord formationsof tritone or auguemented triads
no interchang of intervals even if distributed bet the 4 tones of 2 successives intervals
21 no cross relation
22 no unisson ,octave, 5th, 4th
23 parallel Major 3rd or m6th only with half step prog
24 no covered unisson when the progression is from an interval
smaller thanthe goal intervals
25 no covered 5th.4th from smaller intervals in an ascending
direction when two voices move in the same direction
26 no simultaneous climax and nadir
27 strive to contrary motion relieved by some parallel and similar motions
28 try to keep parts within a tenth of each other
29 avoid crossing
wich embellishement nmbr 20.21.22.23 are rules no longer effective
__________________________________________________________________
SCHOENBERG
* the row must be buit with intense ive care from the standpoint of effectiveness
and developemental material , avoid using too melodic interval of the same or similar size
[ this may lead to melodic monotoniy ]
* no come back to original tone
* any tone may be written in ANY octave
* each row could transposed to 11 transpositions [ automatique withe matrix 12 tones ]
* THE SEQUENCE OF TONES MUST BE RETAINED
basic row and tranpos may be combined in two or more line , as long as the sequence of tone is maintened
* when composing for two voices one row may be divided bet voices !
* CHORDS ny of thoses could be spread or contract on differents ranges
* Chords could be constructed with any number of tones [ always using thems from the row ]
* a note may be repeated out of sequence in the same octave ,if it is used in trill/tremolos/
pedale figure / or if itsnpart of a repetitive pattern .
______________________________________________________________________________________
R YO ROW SETTING
1 / write early Row in chromatic step
2/ number with shft + W start by 0
3/ input a Row
[replace thoses placed by head less Opt + Cmd + N
on the early Row chromatik step
4 / use Shift + W to write interval
5 / work until prime Row .....OK
6 / run matrix 12 [Opt + Cmd + 3] [transpose auto to 11 transpo ]
attention set manually the figured number up [ use select figured bass ]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
good luck
>>you should also look into spectral music theory.
Spectral music is also old-fashioned. Or will be at least when your piece is ready. Maybe you should compsose using the principles of M-theory. And I do NOT mean the famous M-matrix information theory developed at the physics department of the University of Joensuu, Finland (that would be to complex for any human composer), but the far easier one by Witten etc. (string theory, 11 dimensional Calabi-Yau-space etc.) That would be complicated and interesting enough even for Magnus Lindberg.
I really think the best way to handle any composition that has any appreciable length of atonal music is to have the entire piece done entirely without a key signature.
That's how I would do it [and have done it in the past].
--
Sib4.1, on self-built custom AMD Athlon dual-core 2.8MHz [64 bit, w/ 32 bit emulation] running XP Pro, 4GB RAM, 500GB hard drive, M-Audio 192 audio card, NVidia 7900 256MB video card.
Warlen Bassham wrote:
>have the entire piece done entirely without a key signature.
I agree, but it's trivially easy to do this at a very late stage, as Laurence said above. I would get on with composing in whatever key signature I like, and let the editorial process come later.
J
--
music editor/engraver
iMac Intel 2GHz 2GB/OS 10.4.11/Sibelius 4.1.5&5.2
I don't know if this is helpful - no time to read all the entries, but if I'm not duplicating what's been said above, I think I read enough to get the idea, and maybe this will confirm some of what has been said.
I have written atonally and what the first couple guys said is what I think. Simply, do what is easiest to read and communicates what you want most clearly. If a section is tonal, use a key. If it's "sort of" tonal, use whatever key leaves you with the least accidentals. If a section is clearly atonal, use no key. If the sections aren't too short, go back and forth. If you're in and out of tonality too often, it may be less confusing to always write in "C" (NO key signature).
In any case, you don't have to decide ahead of time. As you go along, use the plan above and adapt as necessary. After you've written a certain amount, you may want to go back and drop/add keys in what you've done.
WOW. You have people have been GREAT! Thanks for the pointers.I'm going to print out this Thread for reference.
(Although I don't know WHAT the heck "M-Matrix" is ? Can you put into Music Notation the results of using the "Spectral" software ?)
I can't find my Piston book. Can anyone recommend a text that goes from Common Practice to the evolvement and a comprehensive how-to of 12 Tone-Serial ? THANKS again.
"on self-built custom AMD Athlon dual-core 2.8MHz [64 bit, w/ 32 bit emulation] running XP Pro, 4GB RAM, 500GB hard drive, M-Audio 192 audio card, NVidia 7900 256MB video card."
Self-built.You know how to(sorry OFF TOPIC) and where to buy these components.Any instruction on the web for a do-it-yourself project aspirant ? Was it much cheaper the DYI way ? Thanks.
> Can you put into Music Notation the results of using the "Spectral" software ?
Do you mean if the program can export some type of score from a sound?
I'm sure they do, but in the case of Spear, I don't think so. I know you can generate a list of all the partials, but I don't think that would be useful, because it's just so large a list (but maybe there are other programs that'll do it).
However, for mixed works, you can generate electronic sounds with specific partials, and use that to generate your harmony for the acoustic instruments.
Once heard Tristan Murail give a lecture about his use of OpenMusic, but I don't have that program, so I can't tell you about its operation.
I only use Spear to generate sounds...load a sound and use the "scrubbing" function (you get some great, weird stuff). So it works for me, because in my scores, electronics are always involved. But I'm not a spectral composer (I don't believe in any school of composition...I've never subscribed to any of the "isms" of the twentieth century).
And as others have pointed out, spectralism is still a very traditional way of composing. However, knowledge is never harmful, so take a look at it and see what you think.
--
Victor Garcia Pichardo
Sib 5.2.0 build 188, Mac OS 10.4.11, MacBook 2GHz Intel Core Duo, 2 GB RAM
"Self-built.You know how to(sorry OFF TOPIC) and where to buy these components.Any instruction on the web for a do-it-yourself project aspirant ? Was it much cheaper the DYI way ? Thanks. "
I went to Fry's [an electronics chain store on the West Coast of the US], picked out the components with the help of my son, who is more knowledgeable than I am about such things, and then had Fry's service department put it all together. Including the assembly and testing, total cost came to a hair over $1100 US, which was about 35-40% of what it would have cost for comparable specs in a PC ready-built. The assembly charge was $139 of that.
I don't know of any online instruction.
My signature line below should probably read "self and son designed" rather than "self-built," which is misleading, as you can now see.
--
Sib4.1, on self-built custom AMD Athlon dual-core 2.8MHz [64 bit, w/ 32 bit emulation] running XP Pro, 4GB RAM, 500GB hard drive, M-Audio 192 audio card, NVidia 7900 256MB video card.
Excellent suggestion, which I have now adopted, as you can see below.
--wb
--
Sib4.1, on custom-built AMD Athlon dual-core 2.8MHz [64 bit, w/ 32 bit emulation] running XP Pro, 4GB RAM, 500GB hard drive, M-Audio 192 audio card, NVidia 7900 256MB video card. Playback via Kontakt Gold.
