'Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.'

Messages in this thread

Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - STINGO, 10 Mar 01:04PM
     Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Daniel formerly at Sibelius, 10 Mar 09:52PM
         Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - STINGO, 10 Mar 11:20PM
             Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Daniel formerly at Sibelius, 11 Mar 09:57PM
                 Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - STINGO, 12 Mar 06:36AM
                     Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Roger, 14 Mar 01:44AM
                         Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Daniel formerly at Sibelius, 14 Mar 10:14AM
                             Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - STINGO, 14 Mar 12:17PM
                                 Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Daniel formerly at Sibelius, 14 Mar 11:56PM
                                     Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - STINGO, 15 Mar 12:21PM
                                         Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Roger, 15 Mar 05:05PM
                                             Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Daniel formerly at Sibelius, 17 Mar 11:46PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - STINGO, 18 Mar 02:08PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Roger, 19 Mar 12:48AM
                                                         Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Jon Carlo Bruttomesso, 18 Apr 03:39AM

Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by STINGO - 10 Mar 01:04PM
When I am using an external musical instrument the following occurs:

Audio being received but no monitoring ability in any of the available setup combinations. When I went into record mode the music following cursor in Sibelius froze and the midi engine crashed. KonkaktPlayer2, however, is working in Sibelius.

Asus A8N SLI SE motherboards use Realtek AC97 as default audio driver. The Juli@ sound card serves as the computers' MIDI control and the receiver of the digital audio from the Roland XV-5080 instrument. The computers' Realtek AC97 and the Juli@ are S/PDIF, MME and ASIO compliant.



The motherboard has dual purpose minijack for surround sound output or analogue inputs but not both. It has a digital audio output but no input.
The Juli@ soundcard has midi connections in and out; analogue audio input and output, digital audio input and output. It is a quiet card with better the -95db noise background. whereas the Realtek AC97 built in audio has a much higher -35db noise background. The Juli@ card is impressive and details about it are still on Internet pages.

One theory I have is that Sibelius is trying to use the same audio link to the Realtek AC97 driver as the Juli@ audio link. That is a little bit off the deep end for me to mess with without a clear path being layed out. To many mines to mess things up.

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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by Daniel formerly at Sibelius - 10 Mar 09:52PM
What "external musical instrument" are you using? A sound module or an
external keyboard/synthesizer?

If you have both an on-board soundcard and a dedicated soundcard, you
could try disabling the on-board soundcard in your BIOS to see if that
helps.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help:
North/Central/South America: sibhelpUSA@sibelius.com / 925-280-2101
UK: sibhelpUK@sibelius.com / 020 7561 7997
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Other countries: contact your distributor (www.sibelius.com/buy for details)

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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by STINGO - 10 Mar 11:20PM
The Roland XV-5080 is a keyboard module, this is my main instrument, I also have an older Roland and a Yamaha keyboards which function as the keyboard input for the XV-5080. The onboard Sibelius 5 sounds are good but limited in quantity. You can make up your own digital sounds, use the many digital sounds that come in a variety of expansion modules, plus the XV-5080 is also a sampler. Another advantage has to do with a program written for it which gives you total control of all its features from the computer. The older Roland and Yamaha are FM based sounds so they are not as useful to me.

I still have not succeeded in importing the digital audio from the XV-5080 to Sibelius to take advantage of its features. Sibelius has passed the advertised time limit for technical response so either they are very busy or they too cannot fathom what the problem might be.

I will get Sibelius 5 to work even if I have to build another computer dedicated to running Sibelius on a Juli@ sound card, but I am hoping it will not come to that.

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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by Daniel formerly at Sibelius - 11 Mar 09:57PM
You can't get the sound from the XV-5080 into Sibelius, unfortunately.
You need to connect the MIDI output of your computer to your XV-5080,
and then connect the audio output of your XV-5080 to your speakers.
(Apologies if this is teaching you to suck eggs, but sometimes it
doesn't hurt to cover the basics.)

In Sibelius, you then need to go to Play > Playback Devices and activate
the MIDI port to which your XV-5080 is attached. Sibelius 5.1 does not
include a sound set file specifically for the XV-5080, but I will email
one to you, and you can find the instructions for how to install it here:

http://www.sibelius.com/helpcenter/resources/soundsets.html

(Scroll down to the heading 'Installing a sound set')

Assign the XV-5080 sound set to the MIDI port that corresponds to your
Roland device and save the configuration. Click the 'Test' button and
you should hear a fast scale played back via the Roland out of your
external speakers connected to the XV. And away you go!

--
Contact Sibelius technical help:
North/Central/South America: sibhelpUSA@sibelius.com / 925-280-2101
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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by STINGO - 12 Mar 06:36AM
Daniel: The XV-5080 receives midi from Sibelius via a Juli@ sound card. The XV-5080 sends audio to the Juli@ sound card and its meters incidate sound being received. Soundforge also confirms on its meters that sound is being received. There is however a conflict between Soundforge and Sibelius for when you push record in Soundforge the output of Sibelius locks up. Sibelius apparently resents that you would want to record with any other program. Sibelius does not seem capable of monitoring sound from any other source except its own soundfiles at present. This problem is either due to a purposefull design or a conflict with the Realtek driver built in to the motherboard of the computer. I would assume the later is the case, in that it does offer "Audio Engine Options".

In my case they are as follows:
ASIO 2.0 - ESI Juli@ (ASIO);
Microsoft Sound Mapper - Output (MME)
Realtek AC97 Audio (MME);
Juli@ Ch12 (MME);
Juli@ Ch34 (MME);
Juli@ Ch1234 (MME);
Primary Sound Driver (DS);
Realtek AC97 Audio (DS);
Juli@ Ch12 (DS);
Juli@ Ch34 (DS);
Juli@ Ch1234 (DS).

Juli@ specifies Ch34 as digital input. The sound output of the computer however is through Realtek AC97 connections on the motherboard. From the menu of Audio Engine Options I have selected "Realtek AC97 Audio (MME)" as it allows the Sibelius own sound set to be heard.

The desired result is for the Sebelius to monitor the output of the internal and external sound sources. This is a capability that the literature says it can do.
I have not found a way to make this happen and that is why silence is the result in monitoring audio output of external midi divices.

Simulating the sounds of the XV-5080 internally would not allow for the flexibility of the original instrument which allows for keyboard mapping, design of own unique sounds, adjustment of wave shapes, attack, platform and decay times and the blending of various waves, however, thank you for the offer.

Before it is suggested I should point out that all drivers involved are updated and the computer operating system reports that all components are operational with no conflicts reported.


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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by Roger - 14 Mar 01:44AM
I'm kind've interested in this one as well Daniel. Waiting on your response.

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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by Daniel formerly at Sibelius - 14 Mar 10:14AM
Ah, okay, so you're sending MIDI out through your Juli@ card and
receiving audio from the XV-5080 back via the line in on that same card.

Try going to Audio Engine Options in Play > Playback Devices and
switching off 'Use virtual instruments and effects'. This will disable
the audio engine that Sibelius uses for virtual instruments and effects,
and make the program only use MIDI. You should now find that your
soundcard (which apparently doesn't have a multi-client driver, meaning
that only one application can use it at once) allows you to hear the
audio coming in from your XV-5080.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help:
North/Central/South America: sibhelpUSA@sibelius.com / 925-280-2101
UK: sibhelpUK@sibelius.com / 020 7561 7997
Australia: sibhelpAU@sibelius.com
Other countries: contact your distributor (www.sibelius.com/buy for details)

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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by STINGO - 14 Mar 12:17PM
Daniel: That is one of the options I have as yet to try. So here is what I have done ...
1: turn off the use of virtual instruments.
2: restart Sibelius to confirm option is remembered.
3: call in a midi file to test with.
4: confirm instrument acknowledges midi input and is producing audio.
5: Sibelius Playback Audio Engine Options.
( woops: no audio interfaces selectable now. )
6: Restart Sibelius to see if this makes a difference.
{ still no audio interface selectable )
7: check speaker output from other source.
(speaker output is OK )
8: Restart Sebelius with virtual instruments turned back on.
(audio interfaces are now selectable)

Conclusion:
Disabling virtual instruments also disables the ability to select which audio engine is used and does not result in sound being heard in Sibelius.
Selecting any of the Audio Engine Options will not result in Sound being heard in Sibelius unless it is with Realtek AC97 (MME) selected and KontaktPlayer2 as the device.
There seems to be no way to select the sound output of the external instrument that I have found. Soundforge will confirm that it is receiving sound on its meters while Sibelius is doing the MIDI output so we know that somewhere inside the computer there is sound to be found while running Sibelius.

In another test I made a copy on another track of the MIDI program and in the mixer selected the copy to go to the external instrument while the original kept the KontakPlayer. The external instrument did not receive MIDI.
I reversed the settings in the Sibelius mixer so that the original went to the external instrument and the copy to KontakPlayer. The result was that the MIDI went to the external instrument and KnontakPlayer did not receive MIDI.
So if this is not possible why then make controls that would lead you to believe it can be done? Like the no sound from external instruments issue this leads me to believe a step has been missed in the multitude of possible settings.


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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by Daniel formerly at Sibelius - 14 Mar 11:56PM
Stingo, you don't *need* an audio engine in Sibelius if all you're doing
is wanting to hear the audio from your XV-5080 coming into your
soundcard and recording it in another application. So try again: switch
off 'Use virtual instruments and effects', restart Sibelius, then play
back your score through your XV-5080, and use whatever application you
normally use to hear your XV's sound.

I can't help feeling you'd be a lot better off if you just connected
speakers directly to the audio output of your XV-5080, but I'm sure you
have a good reason for piping the audio back into your computer. At
least try putting some headphones in the headphone jack on the front of
the XV-5080 to verify that it is playing back.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help:
North/Central/South America: sibhelpUSA@sibelius.com / 925-280-2101
UK: sibhelpUK@sibelius.com / 020 7561 7997
Australia: sibhelpAU@sibelius.com
Other countries: contact your distributor (www.sibelius.com/buy for details)

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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by STINGO - 15 Mar 12:21PM
Daniel:
All other possibile combinations to patch the sound through with the "Use virtual instruments and effects" switched off will now be tried, if I can think of any I have not already explored.
This may take alot of time to discover what the problem is and may even requre purging Sibelius from the system and reloading it into the computer which may use up the registration quotas which would not be a good thing to do. The purpose in seeking help here is to minimize the time it would take to resolve this problem on my own.

It would make sense that with no audio being generated by Sibelius that it should not disrupt the audio feeds comming from the Juli@ card, however, it does not rule out the possibility that it is part of Sibelius program to take over the same pathway used by Juli@ card regardless of the Sibeliius runtime settings. Evidence that this may be possible is when you first boot up Sibelius it adjusts to utilize existing MIDI and audio configurations.
It may not have detected the Juli@ audio return feed as this card is not common. It has a very low noise factor to be detected and Sibelius might have taken over its output pathway for its own use. That use may be related to the bar that follows the music score while playing the MIDI files in Sibelius.

Audio is getting into the computer otherwise the virtual meters would not be deflecting in rythm to the music when viewed using the Juli@ meter window and also the Soundforge meter window. The point where the meters detect the signal is unclear but it is at some point past the Juli@ card in order for the Soundforge meter to also register a signal one would think.
Where does the pathway continue after the meters but before the digital audio is processed into analogue output?
What has Sibelius done to break this link and can it be fixed?
Why when you attempt to record using Soundforge does Sibelius lock up its MIDI sequencing?
The answer to the no sound problem is probably related to this last question.

The purpose in piping the audio back into the computer is to make wave files of the music till enough material is assembled to burn a disk.

Hearing the audio of the Roland synth is not the problem. This is easily done with headphones plugged into the synth. Hearing it in the computer while Sibelius is running is the problem.

As you may already know, the computer does add some noise of its own to the background of the audio. The amount of noise can be regulated by adjusting the audio sliders so that the potential difference between them is minimum. Switching sliders off can increases the noise background which is counter intuitive.
Slider adjustments are repeated on each one of the input and output sliders till you arrive at the -95db background noise level which is the minimum noise level output of the Juli@ card on my system and sufficient to make a good wave file for recording music cleanly. On other systems the Juli@ card has been reported with even lower background noise levels.

Failing to monitor the feed in the computer can produce a wave file with background hiss levels roughly similar to a poor audio tape casette. That is why listening to the output while Sibelius is in command of the MIDI is important.

Failure to achieve audio sound monitoring in the computer while Sibelius is running suggests the course of action may be to break down and buy a more modern sequencer than the Cakewalk music creator in present use and assign Sibelius to its primary function as an excellent notator for the printing of music scores.

If you know of a good sequencer that can give a natural feel to the MIDI playback that is as good or beter then Sibelius then post recomendations, but only if you know the moderators of this Help Center would not object.

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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by Roger - 15 Mar 05:05PM
picture of emoticon eating popcorn.

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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by Daniel formerly at Sibelius - 17 Mar 11:46PM
Stingo, does your computer contain multiple audio devices, e.g. do you
have both an on-board soundchip and your Juli@ card? If so, then it may
suffice to choose a different audio interface in the Audio Engine
Options dialog in Play > Playback Devices than the one you expect to be
able to use in SoundForge, so that Sibelius is not attempting to do
anything at all with your Juli@ soundcard.

If you don't have multiple audio devices installed, perhaps you can
choose a different, i.e. non-ASIO, interface provided by your Juli@
card, e.g. choose a DirectSound (DS) interface if one is listed there.

--
Contact Sibelius technical help:
North/Central/South America: sibhelpUSA@sibelius.com / 925-280-2101
UK: sibhelpUK@sibelius.com / 020 7561 7997
Australia: sibhelpAU@sibelius.com
Other countries: contact your distributor (www.sibelius.com/buy for details)

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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by STINGO - 18 Mar 02:08PM
Daniel: Yes there are "multiple audio deveces" see list posted Mar 12 06:36 above. I have by now tried many possible combination which has included:
1} AUDIO CONTROL:
playback devices/
audio/ input settings output settings
voice/ input settings output settings;
2) SIBELIUS:
file preferences settings,
active device settings,
configuration settings,
Audio Engine Options settings;
JULI@ ESI;
control pannel
sliders mute and monitor settings,
Sample rates settings,
Clock settings;
DIRECTWIRE signal patching;
of four channel INPUT, MME, WDM, ASIO, GSIF codec
REALTEK AC97 control pannels for:
Volume control,
Wave,
SW Synth,
Front,
Subwoofer,
Center,
Rear,
SPDIF,
Aux,
CD Player,
Line in,
Microphone,
Phone in,
PC Speaker,
Mono Mix,
Stereo Mix,


One clue is the Realtek AC97 control panel indicates the Stereo Mix slider is closed and refuses efforts to open it and is permanently selected.
Another clue is that Sibelius locks up when Soundforge attempts to record its output.
Another clue is that Realtek AC97 SPDIF slider is greyed out.

This is what leads me to believe that there is something that is being done by Sibelius that effects the Juli@ and Realtek sound devices.
I now think that if there is a solution it may rest in the BIOS setup of the computer and being reluctant to mess with updating the BIOS and all the headaches it can cause I shall have to contend myself with KontaktPlayer2 output for Sibelius until such time as Soundforge is set up on another computer to enable the feed of the Roland synth audio to be recorded into a wave file. This is probably the simplest solution to the no Sound in Sibelius when diving MIDI to an external synth.

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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by Roger - 19 Mar 12:48AM
If it means anything, My SPDIF is unusably grayed out when realtek is selected as mixer device in playback mode under audio properties.

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Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing.
Posted by Jon Carlo Bruttomesso - 18 Apr 03:39AM
I think Sibelius needs a revision to the way utilizes your audio interface in ReWire mode, particularly in regard to external instruments. We should be able to play audio through external devices and send the audio to a DAW via an audio interface or mixer's inputs while virtual instruments were routed through ReWire. Audacity does not support ASIO input, as far as I can tell. Even with MIDI export you have to do this anyway...so might as well save a step!

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Messages in this thread

Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - STINGO, 10 Mar 01:04PM
     Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Daniel formerly at Sibelius, 10 Mar 09:52PM
         Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - STINGO, 10 Mar 11:20PM
             Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Daniel formerly at Sibelius, 11 Mar 09:57PM
                 Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - STINGO, 12 Mar 06:36AM
                     Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Roger, 14 Mar 01:44AM
                         Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Daniel formerly at Sibelius, 14 Mar 10:14AM
                             Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - STINGO, 14 Mar 12:17PM
                                 Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Daniel formerly at Sibelius, 14 Mar 11:56PM
                                     Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - STINGO, 15 Mar 12:21PM
                                         Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Roger, 15 Mar 05:05PM
                                             Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Daniel formerly at Sibelius, 17 Mar 11:46PM
                                                 Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - STINGO, 18 Mar 02:08PM
                                                     Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Roger, 19 Mar 12:48AM
                                                         Re: Sib. 5.1: Sibelius silent while playing. - Jon Carlo Bruttomesso, 18 Apr 03:39AM