How standard are stemlets? Posted by Sam L. Richards - 17 Jan 07:00PM (edited 17 Jan 07:11PM) Hide picture I'm a composer in graduate school and can't tell you how often I have been harried by my professors about the need to include not only beams over rests in order to show beat structures, but to include stemlets to make things absolutely clear. They (for the most part) insist that including stemlets is a standard practice in contemporary music notation. I do realize that there are workarounds in Sibelius to create stemlets, but the process is nowhere near the level of convenience that it should be if stemlets are indeed standard notation. It would be a shame to have to switch to another notation program (namely Finale) just because Sibelius doesn't include an easy way to include stemlets. I would like to enlist the resources of this forum and try to get some sort of opinion (especially from music editors and engravers) about how "standard" stemlets really are in contemporary notation. In addition to the poll comments on the matter would also be very much appreciated. Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by John Mortimer - 17 Jan 07:39PM Hide picture beams over rests are to my mind mostly optional BUT WHAT ON EARTH IS A STEMLET ????????????????????????? Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by Sam L. Richards - 17 Jan 07:44PM Hide picture Thanks for the question! A stemlet is a small section of a stem that comes out of the portion of the beam that is over the rest. It comes out of the beam leading towards the rest, but stops before it gets there, as if to indicate that IF there was a note coming out of the beam, it would be placed there. I don't have any pictures I could post showing it. If anyone else does it would be much appreciated. I have to admit that I think the addition of the stemlet to the beam over the rest does seem to clarify the appearance a little bit for me. I hope my explanation has made some sense. Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by Peter McAleer - 17 Jan 07:49PM (edited 17 Jan 07:58PM) Hide picture >They (for the most part) insist that including stemlets is a standard practice in contemporary music notation. There seems to be a small but very vocal movement trying to promote this kind of notation. It's a dogma I've come across in my own education. Nicholas Sackman insisted on it - and yet if you took your stemletted work to another eminent 'contemporary composer' you'd get laughed at. And that's happened to me, too. Even worse, the performers - they ridiculed it (these are the guys I take most seriously, too). I don't care what anyone else says, if the performers are unhappy, I'm going to keep them on board! Don't think it's true to say it's 'standard' although, as i say, those that support it do so vociferously. Interesting subject. Notation changes over time and there are regional dialects of taste concerning this sort of thing, too. Attached a very bad example for you. Looks hideous to me! -- Sibelius 5.1; Mac G5 dual 1.8 Powermac; 1.5 GB RAM; OS 10.4.11 Attachment stemlets.png (6K) Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by Bob Zawalich - 17 Jan 08:55PM Hide picture Long ago I tried to write a plugin that would find rests under beams and converted them into silent notes that looked like rests. This kind of worked in that it changed the rests for you, but the strm lengths were generally wrong and there is still no way in a plugin to get the stem lengths right. If any one would find it useful, I can try to dig the plugin up for you. You would probably have to hand-adjust most of the stem lengths, but I would guess that at least some of the work would be reduced. FWIW, here is a message I sent out at the start of Sib 3 about this: *********************************** On stemlets in Sibelius 3.0 As anyone interested in this topic probably knows, stemlets are not supported in Sib 3. However, some changes have been made that will make creating stemlets somewhat easier, assuming you use the scheme of using custom noteheads with rest symbols and shortened stems for the stemlets. 1. You can now define noteheads that are silent, non-transposable, have no accidentals, and no leger lines. 2. You can specify extended beams to cover rests (both at the ends and in the middle of a beam group). 3. Manuscript is now capable of changing noteheads. Also: I have written a plugin that will replace rests under beams with silent, non-transposable, etc notes whose notehead is a rest symbol appropriate to the duration of the rest. The note is placed on the center line of the staff. There is a serious problem, however, in that I have no way of knowing what the correct length of the stem should be. I have one set of noteheads for 5 different durations, and I set them up in a nexported house style library, which can be imported into a score. Since I cannot set an absolute stem length, only an amount to shorten the stems, I picked a length that works pretty well when all the beamed pitches are in the vicinity of the center staff line; they become too long when the notes are far from the center line. I was going to mothball this plugin, but I realized that it might make the process of setting up stemlets somewhat easier (it will put a notehead with the appropriate duration where the rest was, and probably *some* of the stemlengths will be appropriate). You can probably fix the stem lengths by defining more noteheads with different stem lengths and replacing some by hand. So it will still be a tedious job, but maybe a little less so. If anyone would be interested in trying this plugin, email me and I will send you a copy. *********************************** -- Bob Sib 5.1, Windows XP Pro SP2, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo; Audiophile 2496; 2 G RAM I am an experienced Sibelius user, but I am not affiliated with Sibelius Software; all opinions expressed here are my own. Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by Jim Stanley - 17 Jan 10:00PM Hide picture Well, I can see how popular the poll is - my opinion is just, good, and true because I'm the only one voting! Actually, it depends on the style. I wouldn't use it for choral music (which is much of my output at present), but would love to see stemlets in instrumental music made much easier. Yes, you really do need the stemlets as they make *reading* the page go much faster, and the eye uses the stemlets to place the rest in context. Of course, YMMV. -- Jim Stanley Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 17 Jan 11:16PM (edited 17 Jan 11:19PM) Hide picture I voted and would like to clarify my choice (2nd from top) with this short example which lasts only 4 seconds, but which is part of a 3 hours production, overloaded with these kinds of rhythms. Not excessively complicated, but a real pain for slow sightreaders, which are all guitarists... Attachment Hi Stemlets!.png (115K) Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by Victor Garcia Pichardo - 17 Jan 11:33PM Hide picture I think the use of stemlets is justified when the music is very complex, and a lot of beam groups start and/or end with rests, and therefore, you have a need to clarify the beat structure. In this sort of case, I think that you have to use your own good judgement as to what looks clear. As long as it's easy to read, I think you're good to go with the performers. The problem lies when a composer tries to complicate the notation just for the sake of looks. But as long as it's clear and uncluttered, there shouldn't be a problem. Just my two cents. -- Victor Garcia Pichardo Sib 5.1.0 build 41, Mac OS 10.4.11, MacBook 2GHz Intel Core Duo, 2 GB RAM Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by Victor Garcia Pichardo - 17 Jan 11:36PM Hide picture Just saw Wim's post. Good example! -- Victor Garcia Pichardo Sib 5.1.0 build 41, Mac OS 10.4.11, MacBook 2GHz Intel Core Duo, 2 GB RAM Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by John Mortimer - 18 Jan 07:25AM Hide picture I was the one who asked what stemlets were.....well it did occur to me in the middle of the night! I'm going to be my usual opiniated self. This kind of notation is to my mind what untalented composers who have no real musical ideas like using to make their scores look more interesting. They are a new-fangled idea, totally unnecessary and make music harder to read, not easier! Not only are they absolutely not standard, they should be banned. Anyone who uses them is misguided, and anyone who forces a student to use them is criminally insane! Samuel, change teachers! *** All this is over the top of course, but seriously I think this notation is a stupid gimmick. Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by John Mortimer - 18 Jan 07:32AM Hide picture Me again......just to clarify,,,,my hatred is for STEMLETS. Beams over rests are often a good idea. It is common to use them in music like marches where people have strings of off-beats, but I don't think this is at all needed. I avoid them because Sibelius doesn't do them correctly - it lengthens the note stems to a sometimes ridiculous degree and adjusting those manually is a pain. I think beams over rests are really good in two circumstances: 1) when you have the rhythm eighth-note, sixteenth rest, sixteenth. beaming over the rest makes the beats much clearer. 2) In 6/8 and similar when you have eighth/eighth rest/eighth. Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by Laurence Payne - 18 Jan 11:24AM Hide picture On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:25:56, "John Mortimer" <jgm.topscoremusic@btinternet.com> wrote: >I was the one who asked what stemlets were.....well it did occur to me in the >middle of the night! >I'm going to be my usual opiniated self. >This kind of notation is to my mind what untalented composers who have no real >musical ideas like using to make their scores look more interesting. They are >a new-fangled idea, totally unnecessary and make music harder to read, not easier! > >Not only are they absolutely not standard, they should be banned. >Anyone who uses them is misguided, and anyone who forces a student to use them >is criminally insane! >Samuel, change teachers! >*** >All this is over the top of course, but seriously I think this notation is a stupid >gimmick. If you use a stemlet, why bother with the rest as well? Seems like needless clutter, either would be sufficient. To those teachers who obsess on using them, surely a full and acceptable response would be "Fine, but live without stemlets until both mainstream notation programs support them"? Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by Jody Hughes - 18 Jan 03:17PM Hide picture Laurence Payne wrote: >If you use a stemlet, why bother with the rest as well? Excellent insight, Laurence. I think that this would resolve a number of the problems with the current workaround for stemlets in Sibelius. A headless note with a short stem should be easier to work with. Jeremy -- music editor/setter iMac Intel 2GHz 2GB/OS 10.4.11/Sibelius 4.1.5 Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by John Mortimer - 18 Jan 09:08PM Hide picture Laurence, Jeremy, yes....but what is the point of stemlets???? What on earth is the matter with just rests like everyone has done for centuries? Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by Victor Garcia Pichardo - 18 Jan 09:51PM Hide picture Please note that I don't want to get into a heated discussion about this. But just to clarify again, the need for the use of stemlets (in certain situations) is to clarify beat structure. The reason they didn't need such artifacts centuries ago, is because rhythms were simple enough not to warrant the use of something such as stemlets. I rarely use them myself, because my music is not that complex rhythmically, but I understand the need for them in certain scores. With that said, I leave this discussion, because I don't want to contribute into what might become a flaming thread (although normally, it's quite a civil discussion board, which makes this such a great forum, but once in a while...). Anyway, hope all you guys have a great day. Cheers! -- Victor Garcia Pichardo Sib 5.1.0 build 41, Mac OS 10.4.11, MacBook 2GHz Intel Core Duo, 2 GB RAM Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by Rob Tuley - 18 Jan 11:25PM Hide picture > It would be a shame to have to switch to another notation program (namely Finale) just because Sibelius doesn't include an easy way to include stemlets. Another option would be to switch to another graduate school, of course ;-) But seriously, if anybody asserts there is only one correct way of notating anything (especially something relatively new), my first instinct is to challenge that assertion. They may turn out to be right, but I'm not going to believe anybody is right just because THEY say so. But not passing your course is an important short-term consideration, obviously. IMO stemlets could be useful in pointillistic music, where the stem indicates that somebody else plays a note at that point. But "stemlets over every rest" sounds more like dogamtism than considered choice of what is easiest to read. -- Rob Sib 4.1, Win98SE, Athlon 3100, 512Mb, Audigy Back to top | All threads

Re: How standard are stemlets? Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 18 Jan 11:43PM Hide picture > Laurence, Jeremy, yes....but what is the point of stemlets???? What on earth is the matter with just rests like everyone has done for centuries? Notation and « rules » are inherent to a permanent musical evolution. Regularly great spirits like Boulez, Lachenmann, Ferneyhough, come up with new suggestions, which serve their scores. Stemlets are one of them, even if they can be extremely redundant if used for the sake of whatsoever. As you can see in the example I posted before, notation which has worked « for centuries » doesn't function in these rhythms which sound like a secret Morse code. Next come the black African and Kabyl rhythms and Western notation may turn out completely inadequate. Back to top | All threads